Is lucid control like doublethink?

[muse.v]

a concept of the book "1984" by George Orwell is doublethink. The idea of doublethink is believing two contradictory ideas at the same time. My understanding of lucid control is that its somewhat like doublethink. For example, if you wanted to fly you have to actually believe that when you jump you're going to start flying, but if you're trying to convice yourself to fly that means you must have some doubt about it. Approaching this problem like doublethink means you can be aware of how ridiculous things are and have higher lucidity, but still believe in "impossible" things like flying. What do you guys think? Sound like a useful method? ask me some questions, i'm not sure where to elaborate...

[Howie]

You would think that once you become lucid, which you become conscious you have the abilty to make conscious decisions on your own accord. Opon knowing you are in a dream you can rule out double thinking. You know you are in a dream and that you have no restrictions and the world is your play ground. This is simply the way it should be!! However in our waking life we our brains have been conditioned over and over to have limitations. This is at times arouses your suspicion of what can and can't be done even though you know it is a dream. So I think what you are saying, "believing two contradictory ideas at the same time." I think that is what holds us back. Contradiction only leads to indecisiveness.

[muse.v]

thank for the reply. I still think that it would be useful to remain critical about things in a logical "real life" way, and that can make it harder to let it all go. i see what you mean.. just keep it simple and know anything's possible.

[nina]

To give an example...I have only had trouble flying a few times. Typically I can always fly however and wherever I like. But perhaps some of my lucids were so "hyperreal" that it was hard to see past the dreamscape and realize that the laws of gravity do not apply. I would try to fly...but would just jump and fail miserably. Then I would calmy collect myself...close my eyes, and FEEL this energy rushing through my body...like extreme focus...that it is my dream and I can do anything...and suddenly I would float into the air. This also has happened on occassions where I have attempted to walk through walls and landed flat on my ass. I would simply stand up, close my eyes and walk through the wall FEELING that consciousness...that nothing really exists...that it's all in my dream, and mine to control. It's just a matter of getting past those mind barriers...or double thinking.

[muse.v]

You know those 'silent' background thoughts that aren't in words? For me, these are the ones i can't control. As an example, if i'm trying to remember the nights dreams, i'd be thinking 'out loud' (or 'in words') about the process, but on a deeper level i'm remembering things. When i'm concentrating properly the silent thoughts are where they're meant to be. The silent thoughts are 'me' and the ones in words are just the analysis. I'm not sure if you understand what i'm talking about, but i'll get to the point anyway. You'll probably get what i mean by 'silent thoughts' in a bit. In a dream these thoughts are the ones that actually influence the dream. No matter what i tell myself, i have to believe it. I have to expect it. I can't change the silent thoughts. They dont lie. If i believe something, then that's what they'll be thinking about. That's what will happen. Before i continue, i would like to share an example of how you can be thinking one thing out loud, but inside the silent thoughts might be different. In a nightmare, someone might be telling themself its ok, its only a dream. But inside they're terrified. Before that, they might be wondering if the man will cross the street and chase them. Inside, they're expecting him too. Really, why else would they be asking the question if they didn't expect it? If they expected him to walk right past, the thought wouldn't cross their mind. So heres the problem, the person sees a man across the street. Its dark. "Is he going to cross," they think. Now, of course, he crosses the street. "He looks nasty, should i run?" They're wondering if he's going to start chasing them or not. Now at this point, assume they're lucid. What if they wanted to change the entire scene, make the man turn into an old friend, change it to a bright sunny day. They could think "This isn't what i want to be doing, i'd better change it." But, how can they start to believe its a sunny day, when this entire decision is based on a foundation of fear, and expecting the man to turn into an axe murderer? If this person is only vaguely lucid, they could probably just forget the situation in a few seconds anyway. But what if its ultra real, and actually pretty scary? You can say to yourself "Its just a dream!" But too bad if you're only thinking that because you're afraid. You can't just forget it then, you have to believe it. Its seems like asking you to start believing something contradictory. Now.. i realising i'm creating an idea based of something pretty specific.. so dont assume i'm saying this applies to everything. Its not always contradictory, sometimes you can just happily accept its just a dream. ------------------- Thanks for reading, i'm hoping i've elaborated well on what i was thinking. I realise now once you actually know its a dream, deep down, you can keep that in mind, and its really not that contradicting.

[Wicked]

I do not fully agree with your idea, nor with Howetzer's interpretation. I think double-thinking IS used in LD's, BUT - it is used to simultaneously explore and CREATE your environment (a contradiction, since there is no point at exploring something you are creating at the same moment). That's my opinion.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Wicked I do not fully agree with your idea, nor with Howetzer's interpretation. I think double-thinking IS used in LD's, BUT - it is used to simultaneously explore and CREATE your environment (a contradiction, since there is no point at exploring something you are creating at the same moment). That's my opinion. That is quite possible Wicked. So your mind might also be thinking many variations, rather than just two. no? If this does happen I wonder how many variables go into your brain actually deciding on a scene? But you are not consciously aware of, or control this double thinking process. Is that what you guys mean?

[muse.v]

Hmm. Wicked is right, that does seem contradictory, but it wasn't where my thoughts were. How i'm thinking is much closer to the concept in the book. I'm hoping you've all read it... Basically, the effect i'm thinking of would be like constantly telling yourself to keep a clear mind. But, that means your mind isn't clear. Obviously, this isn't the correct way to approach that problem. Similarly, i think telling yourself its only a dream doesn't nessesarily make you believe it. The idea of doublethink applies as a way to fix that problem. Anyway, i'm done explaining it now. If you haven't read the book, read it, it's good. Another way to fix the problems i discribed in my previous post is to use objects to assist you, like using a vacuum cleaner to fly...