Thread: Geography and Navigation in Dreams

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

If you have a specific destination in mind that is not within your current dream scene, you should rule out all forms of ground transportation. Walking or running, notwithstanding their cardiovascular benefits to your dream body, are exercises in futility. Should you elect to traverse your dream terrain on foot, you will soon discover that ruffians will accost, ladies will allure, and your emerging dream surroundings will lead you astray from where you are going long before you don't get there.

Driving when dreaming made me start drinking. Automobiles in dreams (manufactured in some alloy of anxiety) are notoriously undependable. If your car hasn't been lost, stolen or vandalized, you'll be lucky if it starts. And don't expect the instrument panel to be much help. The gauges only indicate levels and degrees of mocking. Consequently, car problems are a compulsory dreamsign, and the license plate is your registered reality check.

I don't understand why you chose to include this in your post. With enough awareness, anything is possible in the dream world and everything can be under your control. Walking doesn't have to lead to the emergence of distractions, and cars don't have to be unreliable and have incorrect gauges. Even if these hindrances are a common occurrence, it seems to me that you are only planting these negative schemata into unsuspecting readers' brains, when truly anything can be possible in a dream. That being said, I think your post provides useful information, but my impression from the quoted paragraphs was that you were altogether ruling out the possibility of travel by foot or vehicle. As a final note, I think it is worth admitting that I am no expert, but rather I am just citing from Billybob's tutorial Mastering Your Dreams which I have taken to heart. I hope you will consider what I have said, and I would love to hear your opinion on this matter.

Hi. Thank you for your response. I've been lucid dreaming for many years now, and I obviously enjoy writing. I just put it out there. I'm not here to educate or convert DreamView readers. If you have taken "somebody else's teaching to heart" and it works for you, that is definitely what you should do.

I only have one issue with this post and that is how the effect of expectation impacts on the content of your dreams.

Personally I have found running to be a viable manner of changing the dream scene, I run so fast that the scenery blurs and melds into my desired location. Likewise, I've found cars to be a reliable method of transportation with the dashboard displaying all the correct dials etc.

My point is that our expectations shape our experiences in our dreams. Had I not had these experiences, read your post, and then attempted to drive in a lucid dream, my experience would most probably conform to you prediction, based on how my expectations had been shaped by reading it. While the issue of oneiric driving may seem trivial and pedantic, this issue impacts on the whole spectrum of dream control, we are limited by reading how light switches don't work, you can't close your eyes, dream sex will wake you.

Give dream driving another go

I've had a couple of dreams in the past few months that involved me driving.

In one of them I was driving my moms Volvo that I'm always driving, and nothing looked out of place in the car (and I'm a person that notices every detail whilst driving), and the other I was driving a Lexus LFA.

The only thing off with the second one is that the car seemed to only have only Park, Neutral, and Drive. Maybe it had reverse too but still, LFA doesn't even have an automatic transmission. It's god a paddle-shift system and doesn't use a shift knob.

I like your writing.

Originally Posted by Extremador

I've had a couple of dreams in the past few months that involved me driving.

In one of them I was driving my moms Volvo that I'm always driving, and nothing looked out of place in the car (and I'm a person that notices every detail whilst driving), and the other I was driving a Lexus LFA.

The only thing off with the second one is that the car seemed to only have only Park, Neutral, and Drive. Maybe it had reverse too but still, LFA doesn't even have an automatic transmission. It's god a paddle-shift system and doesn't use a shift knob.

Hi. Thanks for submitting this. Since yours in the third post pertaining to my comment on "driving when dreaming," I suppose I should include a disclaimer here. Cars - like watches - and virtually anything mechanical are indeed "notoriously" - not ALWAYS - faulty and unreliable in dreams. I simply chose to use a vehicle as a good example for this topic. I have driven successfully in dreams, and in some instances the car did "appear" to function "normally," but even in those cases, if I had chosen a specific destination (let's say a distant building) I rarely ever reached it. My explanation for this is that dreams move forward by association, pattern recognition and homologous variation. I've discovered (for myself only) that "flying and willing" are more effective in actually "getting somewhere specifically."

For a more in-depth presentation pertaining to what I've just said, you may want to watch my Lucid Dream Discourse videos #9 and #10 on YouTube (The Dynamics of Dream Emergence and Navigation in Dreams - each about 9 minutes in length).

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And, while I'm here, I want to add this note for the previous posters. Yes, our "expectations" and "confidence" certainly do obviously play a key role in lucid dreaming. That being said - even with all of my years of flying and walking through walls in lucid dreams - and fully realizing "I can do it" - I occasionally have lucid dreams where I can't get off the ground or can't pass through a barrier. Every dream comes with its own potential and limitations for whatever inexplicable reason.

I never expect anyone to take anything I ever say as lucid dreaming gospel. We each have different experience, wide-ranging degrees of lucidity, variations in our brain chemistry, and even perhaps the influence of any of a multitude of prescribed medications. A huge number of factors are involved. Whereas we can learn from one another, we are each unique in this field. I place no limit whatsoever on your dreams.

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

And, while I'm here, I want to add this note for the previous posters. Yes, our "expectations" and "confidence" certainly do obviously play a key role in lucid dreaming. That being said - even with all of my years of flying and walking through walls in lucid dreams - and fully realizing "I can do it" - I occasionally have lucid dreams where I can't get off the ground or can't pass through a barrier. Every dream comes with its own potential and limitations for whatever inexplicable reason.

Exactly. I experience the same thing, and not only with flying. Sometimes confidence and expectation just aren't enough. There is that "something" that prevents me sometimes from carrying out certain tasks.

I never expect anyone to take anything I ever say as lucid dreaming gospel. We each have different experience, wide-ranging degrees of lucidity, variations in our brain chemistry, and even perhaps the influence of any of a multitude of prescribed medications. A huge number of factors are involved. Whereas we can learn from one another, we are each unique in this field. I place no limit whatsoever on your dreams.

We place no limits on our dreams, but I believe that dreams do place limits on us. It isn't just a "virtual world" in which you can literally do anything. At least for me it isn't. And I arrived at this conclusion not because I tried to do something, "expecting" to fail, but rather the other way around. I was confident I could do it, but failed. Some things I was able to learn (flying, walking through walls, etc.) but other things I am not able to accomplish to this day. I could also do much better with flying. It also varies from dream to dream.

As you said, a huge number of factors are involved.

I'm not Stephen, but still I'd like to respond to your post.

Originally Posted by DinoSawr

I don't understand why you chose to include this in your post. With enough awareness, anything is possible in the dream world and everything can be under your control.

That is an assumption, not a fact. I have had lucid dreams for years, and sometimes in some LDs I had such a high degree of lucidity that it was remarkable: recalling the current date (try it, it's difficult), what day of the week it is, what time I went to bed, what my activities were before bed, and completely aware that my surroundings are a product of my mind, and completely convinced that I am able to change everything and do everything. Despite all of that, not "everything" was in my control. I couldn't do certain tasks.

Walking doesn't have to lead to the emergence of distractions, and cars don't have to be unreliable and have incorrect gauges. Even if these hindrances are a common occurrence, it seems to me that you are only planting these negative schemata into unsuspecting readers' brains, when truly anything can be possible in a dream.

When Stephen talks about walking, he doesn't mean walking from your living room to your bedroom, or from your apartment to the store across the street. He is talking about longer walking distances, perhaps something which would take 3 or 4 minutes by foot in real life. Those walking distances are, in my experience, more than 80% of the time unsuccessful. I just arrive someplace else, or I experience many distractions which prevent me from getting there, or even in some cases the dream turns into a non-lucid dream. And my experiences did not occur after reading Stephen's posts, or posts similar to Stephen's. They occured without influences, and without negative expectations.

That being said, I think your post provides useful information, but my impression from the quoted paragraphs was that you were altogether ruling out the possibility of travel by foot or vehicle. As a final note, I think it is worth admitting that I am no expert, but rather I am just citing from Billybob's tutorial Mastering Your Dreams which I have taken to heart. I hope you will consider what I have said, and I would love to hear your opinion on this matter.

He is not ruling it out. He is simply saying it is not easy to accomplish. I believe that many lucid dreamers will confirm this. You might be an exception.

Stephen, please check your private messages when you have time.

Mr. Berlin:

Though your post was nicely written, I am deeply troubled by much of what you say. You tacitly imply great authority and seem to honestly wish to teach us, but almost everything you've written about dreamscape navigation seems to me to be incorrect or, dare I say, misguided.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

If you have a specific destination in mind that is not within your current dream scene, you should rule out all forms of ground transportation. Walking or running, notwithstanding their cardiovascular benefits to your dream body, are exercises in futility. Should you elect to traverse your dream terrain on foot, you will soon discover that ruffians will accost, ladies will allure, and your emerging dream surroundings will lead you astray from where you are going long before you don't get there.

This is simply not true. If you have a specific destination in mind, and have properly set that destination in your intentions and expectation, any form of transportation, including walking, running, or crawling on all fours, will get you there -- it is after all your universe, and how you get there does not matter; that you got there does. I have walked to some fairly amazing places, and those walks usually took only a few paces -- a LDer's terrain is exactly as large as she expects it to be; there is no need to walk miles to your next location, if you know it is around the next corner.

Driving when dreaming made me start drinking. Automobiles in dreams (manufactured in some alloy of anxiety) are notoriously undependable. If your car hasn't been lost, stolen or vandalized, you'll be lucky if it starts. And don't expect the instrument panel to be much help. The gauges only indicate levels and degrees of mocking. Consequently, car problems are a compulsory dreamsign, and the license plate is your registered reality check.

You may not like or appreciate cars, or have some anxiety-based reason for producing them poorly in your dreams, but that does not mean we all do. If summoned specifically as a tool for navigating your dream world, there is no reason a car can't work perfectly for you -- indeed, because of its archetypical independence and speed, a car is an excellent choice for scooting between dream scenes -- unless you don't like or trust them in waking life. I can't say much about instrument panels or gauges because I rarely found reason to look at them, but I'm not sure they matter anyway, from a navigational perspective.

If you travel much in your waking life, you will also find yourself out-of-town in your dreams. Leave your Triple A map on the nightstand though. It doesn't show that New York borders Arizona, and that Mexico is just across the river from Quebec. Our clever inner cartographer pulls destinations together by association. I grew up in Binghamton, New York, but for many years lived in Nevada. Hence New York, in one of my dreams was adjacent to Arizona, presumably because it shares "the designation I call home" with Nevada. In another example, I have crossed the St. Lawrence River to get to Quebec, and I have crossed the Rio Grande to get to Mexico, Consequently, when I recently visited a "dreamed version" of Quebec City, I could see Mexico just across the river. My dream slipped up and missed a suite correlation thought. I should have been staying at the Old Quebec City L'Auberge Hotel.

Oneiric maps seem perfectly plausible in dreams and we verily accept any dreamed layout of land and sea as valid. In this respect, the phenomenon has unmistakable similarities to false remembrance (see the posting on False Remembrance). Oneiric maps are, obviously, false geography.

All true, I'm sure. But it seems to me you're lending limitation to your dream travel by associating it, apparently necessarily, with your experience, and not the other way around. Sure, we will tend to map our dream worlds in direct association to familiar waking-life locales, but does it really matter that we leave out New Jersey when traveling from NY to DC? Isn't it more important that we know where we are, where we've been, and where we're going, period? Seriously. This is our own personal dreamworld -- are cartographical errors really that significant?

Next let's look at the prognosis for returning to a previous dream scene. This is important for lucid dreamers because there are times we would like to "go back" to try a different option. In one case, I was being chased by inmates in a jail, and even though their pants were still on, I sensed foul play. Becoming lucid, I flew through the ceiling to escape. As soon as my breech was safely out of reach and my panic abated, I immediately regretted that I had flown the coop. I should have turned to confront the penal colony, and perhaps have resolved my angst for their intended antics. But it was too late. Despite my best effort, I was unable to find my way back.

In waking life, we can always return to a place, but we cannot return to our past. In dreams, there is never a "physical place" to begin with, so its imagery dissolves behind us as we move forward. There is no turning back. In lucid dreams, being lucid, we should know this and consequently not waste our time trying.

I won't say this bit is patently wrong, but I will say that I personally have returned to previous dream scenes many, many times, usually with little more effort than confirming my interest in returning, and very often with waking moments in between exit and return...and there is nothing special about my abilities. If you have trouble returning to previous dreams, that does not mean it cannot be done...why are you telling us it is impossible?

All of this certainly seems a dismal forecast for navigating the sea of dreams. Perhaps I should have titled this posting, "You Can't Get There From Here," since we can only, with a reasonable probability, reach the limits of our visual surroundings. But take heart. In oneironautics, our still pre-adolescent science of lucid dreaming, if we cannot find our way, we can at least set the stage for our true will to find us.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but if you are asserting that we can only navigate as far as we can see in a dream, you are remarkably incorrect (so hopefully you meant something else, and I just misunderstood). Point-to point navigation of our dreamworld is limited by our imagination, and not by what we "see" in front of us. These are our dreams, our universes, especially when lucid -- navigation is limited by what we imagine, and not what we happen to allow ourselves to see at any particular moment. To say that what we "physically" perceive is all we get is to severely underestimate the power of our imagination, and, yes, will... I think you might be underestimating the current level of oneironautic maturity!

For most lucid dreamers, flying is initially irresistible for its alpine appeal, but it also proves to be a practical technique. Dream flight provides a constantly changing landscape and many opportunities for your dreaming mind to connect with something that either captures your interest or answers your call. If you are looking for sex, scan the countryside below for pools or beaches. If you want to meet "a master," you might look for a majestic mountaintop, or maybe a temple. If you want to confront your demons, I'd look for places of darkness or an entrance into the earth, probably a cave. If brilliant sunlight breaks through your overcast or a rainbow appears, the divine is trying to get your attention. In this specific case, try your best to resist the human habitual. Don't look down at those scantily clad girls waving up. The possibilities are many and uniquely personal, so don't get too rigid in your expectations. Trust the dream. The fulfillment may be immediate or it may take awhile. Just keep holding your desire in mind as you fly. When you see it, you'll know it.

All true again, but again I think you might be underselling the things that can be "found," the desires fulfilled, using flight as a scene-changing tool...but I may have misread.

Flying is not, however, essential. If it can't get you off the ground for some reason, you can apply the same techniques on land. This is not a contradiction to what I said earlier about the futility of reaching a specific destination beyond your visual parameters on foot. In this scenario, you are not fixed on a person, place, object or situation. You are fixed on intent. With unfaltering anticipation, you explore, you diligently watch and you wait. Turn a corner, open a door, approach a crowd, walk from a field into the forest, climb a ladder, peer down into a well. Again, remain focused on your desire, keep moving to generate new imagery, and give your dream time to bring significance forth.

All true again, and it is indeed a direct contradiction to what you said earlier -- taking two steps to "walk' somewhere is still walking there, by definition.

If you're still with me, Stephen, I hope you understand my points and have opted not to take offense. It's just that you wrote with a surety and eloquence that simply implied that everything you said was correct, and not just your opinion, and I'd really hate for dreamers new to the LD'ing game (of which there are very many on this forum) to get the impression that even the simplest navigation of dreams is as limited as you portray. I hope you'll forgive if I came off as a bit harsh.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Mr. Berlin:

Though your post was nicely written, I am deeply troubled by much of what you say. You tacitly imply great authority and seem to honestly wish to teach us, but almost everything you've written about dreamscape navigation seems to me to be incorrect or, dare I say, misguided.

Here we go:



This is simply not true. If you have a specific destination in mind, and have properly set that destination in your intentions and expectation, any form of transportation, including walking, running, or crawling on all fours, will get you there -- it is after all your universe, and how you get there does not matter; that you got there does. I have walked to some fairly amazing places, and those walks usually took only a few paces -- a LDer's terrain is exactly as large as she expects it to be; there is no need to walk miles to your next location, if you know it is around the next corner.


You may not like or appreciate cars, or have some anxiety-based reason for producing them poorly in your dreams, but that does not mean we all do. If summoned specifically as a tool for navigating your dream world, there is no reason a car can't work perfectly for you -- indeed, because of its archetypical independence and speed, a car is an excellent choice for scooting between dream scenes -- unless you don't like or trust them in waking life. I can't say much about instrument panels or gauges because I rarely found reason to look at them, but I'm not sure they matter anyway, from a navigational perspective.



All true, I'm sure. But it seems to me you're lending limitation to your dream travel by associating it, apparently necessarily, with your experience, and not the other way around. Sure, we will tend to map our dream worlds in direct association to familiar waking-life locales, but does it really matter that we leave out New Jersey when traveling from NY to DC? Isn't it more important that we know where we are, where we've been, and where we're going, period? Seriously. This is our own personal dreamworld -- are cartographical errors really that significant?



I won't say this bit is patently wrong, but I will say that I have returned to previous dream scenes many, many times, usually with little more effort than confirming my interest in returning, and very often with waking moments in between exit and return...and there is nothing special about my abilities. If you have trouble returning to previous dreams, that does not mean it cannot be done...why are you telling us it is impossible?


I'm not sure what you're saying here, but if you are asserting that we can only navigate as far as we can see in a dream, you are remarkably incorrect (so hopefully you meant something else, and I just misunderstood). Point-to point navigation of our dreamworld is limited by our imagination, and not by what we "see" in front of us. These are our dreams, our universes, especially when lucid -- navigation is limited by what we imagine, and not what we happen to allow ourselves to see at any particular moment. To say that what we "physically" perceive is all we get is to severely underestimate the power of our imagination, and, yes, will... I think you might be underestimating the current level of oneironautic maturity!



All true again, but again I think you might be underselling the things that can be "found," the desires fulfilled, using flight as a scene-changing tool...but I may have misread.

All true again, and it is indeed a direct contradiction to what you said earlier -- taking two steps to "walk' somewhere is still walking there, by definition.

If you're still with me, Stephen, I hope you understand my points and have opted not to take offense. It's just that you wrote with a surety and eloquence that simply implied that everything you said was correct, and not just your opinion, and I'd really hate for dreamers new to the LD'ing game (of which there are very many on this forum) to get the impression that even the simplest navigation of dreams is as limited as you portray. I hope you'll forgive if I came off as a bit harsh.

*******

Thank you. I love this. My only purpose is to stimulate input on important topics. Let's see what else we get . . .

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

*******

Thank you. I love this. My only purpose is to stimulate input on important topics. Let's see what else we get . . .

Not quite the response I expected; and quite condescending, too ... did you even read the response I spent a good deal of time making? And on top of that, what I wrote and asked was apparently unworthy of reply, so we have to "see what else we get." Nice.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Not quite the response I expected; and quite condescending, too ... did you even read the response I spent a good deal of time making? And on top of that, what I wrote and asked was apparently unworthy of reply, so we have to "see what else we get." Nice.

*******

I very carefully read your response. Your opinions are as worthy as my own. Over time, I expect the readers of this thread will discover that we are both right and wrong - as dreams prove us to be. The "condescending" remark was unnecessary.

Originally Posted by StephenBerlin

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I very carefully read your response. Your opinions are as worthy as my own. Over time, I expect the readers of this thread will discover that we are both right and wrong - as dreams prove us to be. The "condescending" remark was unnecessary.

Okay, I tried.

You seem an experienced and thoughtful person, Stephen, so if and when you are ready to take part in an actual discussion, I'll be happy to exchange thoughts, ideas, and perhaps even arguments with you -- that is, after all, how we learn, and that is how the "readers" glean some truth from what I thought we were discussing. Until then, I'll reserve my questions and thoughts for folks who are willing to respectfully address them.

Best of Dreams,

Sageous

I'm going to strive on here as I think there are some important issues to be addressed.
This:

"That is an assumption, not a fact. I have had lucid dreams for years, and sometimes in some LDs I had such a high degree of lucidity that it was remarkable: recalling the current date (try it, it's difficult), what day of the week it is, what time I went to bed, what my activities were before bed, and completely aware that my surroundings are a product of my mind, and completely convinced that I am able to change everything and do everything. Despite all of that, not "everything" was in my control. I couldn't do certain tasks."

I think is the crux of the matter. What Jakob has said amounts to a logical fallacy 'this is my experience and so it must be correct and apply to all. Everyone in this thread is guilty of it to some degree.
The trouble is that expectation in dreams not producing the desired effect in a dream does not discount the role of expectation in all dreams. We've all had dreams where we've flown, looked down at the sickening height, feared for our safety, and the dream responds according to our shifted expectations and we start to fall rapidly to the ground. But to take expectation and apply it to all experiences in an attempt to disprove it as a force in dream control ignores the possibility of other factors that can account for lack of control where expectation is present, focus, intent, and myriad other psychological mechanics of which we are not aware.
I think anyone who hasn't done so already should follow Dinosawr's advice and read Billybob's excellent thread on throwing off the limitations we place on our dreams.

I am just citing from Billybob's tutorial Mastering Your Dreams which I have taken to heart. I hope you will consider what I have said, and I would love to hear your opinion on this matter.

And here I think is the most important, and potentially damaging statement, in the discussion.

We place no limits on our dreams, but I believe that dreams do place limits on us. It isn't just a "virtual world" in which you can literally do anything. At least for me it isn't. And I arrived at this conclusion not because I tried to do something, "expecting" to fail, but rather the other way around. I was confident I could do it, but failed. Some things I was able to learn (flying, walking through walls, etc.) but other things I am not able to accomplish to this day. I could also do much better with flying. It also varies from dream to dream.

You apply your experience to everyone. Again you say there are other factors in dreaming... And yet you disregard expectation effect with no attention to other variables in dream control.

"We place no limits on our dreams, but I believe that dreams do place limits on us. It isn't just a "virtual world" in which you can literally do anything. At least for me it isn't"

. This statement is self-contradictory, you say you place no limits on your dreams and yet you've been telling us that there are things that cannot be done in dreams. You say "at least for me it isn't", don't you think you might be missing out on something in this amazing world of lucid dreaming without limits? It's ironic, you say that lucid dreaming 'isn't a virtual world', when that's precisely what lucid dreaming is. It's a virtual world generated by your mind's inner video graphics accelerator, running scripts based schemata (sets of unconscious expectations that you apply to every object in your life, for instance your schemata for a tree say it has green leaves, branches, but doesn't have wheels), and like a simulation or video game, you can play around with the code. In dreams, the action of gravity, and even the dimensionality of the dream space, is entirely dependent on the unconscious expectations you bring from your waking life of the world around you having gravity etc.
In mental space there is no need for measurements of physical space, what use are miles and metres in a mental representation of a dimensional reality. In fact it could be said in dream navigation that the only true statement we can make is that the dreamer remains stationary while the dream moves around them. Any destination or action is only an act of intent away. As Robert Waggoner was told by a particularly perceptive dream figure in one of his early lucid dreams, 'Mister, in this place, any way is the right way'.

Great.

Now my trees will have wheels.

Thanks Ctharlhie...

They will also be steam powered. And fly.

Also, as a general response to this thread:

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I'm going to strive on here as I think there are some important issues to be addressed.
This: I think is the crux of the matter. What Jakob has said amounts to a logical fallacy 'this is my experience and so it must be correct and apply to all. Everyone in this thread is guilty of it to some degree.
The trouble is that expectation in dreams not producing the desired effect in a dream does not discount the role of expectation in all dreams.

It would appear that you have no clue what a logical fallacy is. Where have I said that my experience must apply to all? Nowhere. I am also not discounting the role of expectation, but rather stating that my own experience has been similar to Stephen's. I have been a lucid dreamer for a long, long, long time, have done my research on this subject, and have talked to many serious lucid dreamers about topics such as these. From what I have gathered, there are more lucid dreamers who would agree with Stephen's assessment of dream transportation, than yours. That has been my experience with this topic. Perhaps you are an exceptionally talented lucid dreamer who has absolutely no hindrances in his dreams. I can accept that there are such people, but I refuse to accept that this applies to the majority.

And to clairfy: By "serious" lucid dreamers I mean those who don't claim they can astral project, share dreams with others, and communicate with otherworldly beings. They have been lucid dreaming for many many years, they are above the age of 16, and they're not obsessed with Dragonball-Z.

I am specifically talking about lucid dreamers who participated in the old discussion forum on the Lucidity Institute website. I am also talking about associates of Stephen LaBerge, the author of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, who really knows lucid dreaming inside and out. Almost everyone there, yes, almost every single person, had major problems with ground transportation for longer (i repeat: LONGER) walking distances.

We've all had dreams where we've flown, looked down at the sickening height, feared for our safety, and the dream responds according to our shifted expectations and we start to fall rapidly to the ground. But to take expectation and apply it to all experiences in an attempt to disprove it as a force in dream control ignores the possibility of other factors that can account for lack of control where expectation is present, focus, intent, and myriad other psychological mechanics of which we are not aware.

The issue is not "why" it happens. Stephen is simply saying that it has been his experience, and perhaps the experience of people he discussed this with, that ground transportation in dreams can be very problematic. He even himself said that there are a huge number of factors.

I think anyone who hasn't done so already should follow Dinosawr's advice and read Billybob's excellent thread on throwing off the limitations we place on our dreams.

I'll take a look at it. But if it is of the same "substance" as the "Etiquette of Shared Dreaming" article, then I'll pass, thank you.

You apply your experience to everyone. Again you say there are other factors in dreaming... And yet you disregard expectation effect with no attention to other variables in dream control.

Nonsense. I have not disregarded the expectation effect. I am simply saying that expectation is influenced by other factors, which "limit" the effects of expectation.

This statement is self-contradictory, you say you place no limits on your dreams and yet you've been telling us that there are things that cannot be done in dreams.

Your understanding is way off. Here it is, in practice, what I mean by "I place no limits, but the dreams do.":

Me, in a lucid state: YES! Great. This is a lucid dream, I am lying in my bed asleep. None of this is real, I can control everything. This house isn't real, it's all a product of my mind. Blah blah blah, I am able to change everything. YAYYY!!

I wave my hand and attempt to generate a dream character, we'll call him "X". Nothing happens.
I try "calling" him, summoning him. Nothing happens.
I ask a dream character to lead me to him. Nothing happens.
Then I stand infront of a door, and fully expect person X to be in that room. Nothing happens.

There have been cases such as these in my dreams. Whereas in others, I am able to summon a dream character easily, without much effort. That is what I am saying this whole time. In my experience, being a lucid dreamer, reading about lucid dreaming, about dreamer's experiences, and so on and so forth, I was able to conclude, just as Stephen Berlin in this thread, that unless a lucid dreamer is exceptionally talented at this LDing, he will experience many difficulties, distractions, and obstacles.

You say "at least for me it isn't", don't you think you might be missing out on something in this amazing world of lucid dreaming without limits? It's ironic, you say that lucid dreaming 'isn't a virtual world', when that's precisely what lucid dreaming is. It's a virtual world generated by your mind's inner video graphics accelerator, running scripts based schemata (sets of unconscious expectations that you apply to every object in your life, for instance your schemata for a tree say it has green leaves, branches, but doesn't have wheels), and like a simulation or video game, you can play around with the code. In dreams, the action of gravity, and even the dimensionality of the dream space, is entirely dependent on the unconscious expectations you bring from your waking life of the world around you having gravity etc.

Actually, the complete science on how dreams form and how they work, has not been scientifically "confirmed." There is not "one opinion" on dreams, but hundreds, if not thousands. And even in virtual worlds there are limits. Video games have their limits too.

In mental space there is no need for measurements of physical space, what use are miles and metres in a mental representation of a dimensional reality. In fact it could be said in dream navigation that the only true statement we can make is that the dreamer remains stationary while the dream moves around them. Any destination or action is only an act of intent away. As Robert Waggoner was told by a particularly perceptive dream figure in one of his early lucid dreams, 'Mister, in this place, any way is the right way'.

You seemed to have completed missed the point of Stephen's post, and my post as well. Neither of us are saying it is impossible to do task X. We are simply saying that in our experience, and in the experience of many experienced lucid dreamers we associated with, that task X, in this case, ground transportation for longer walking distances, is difficult to achieve.

Not impossible, but difficult nonetheless. Read the very first sentence of Stephen's post. He says: "Navigating your way around in a lucid dream can be tricky."

Not must be tricky, but can be. There is a difference. He is not forcing his opinions/experiences on others, and neither should you.

Best wishes,
Jakob

Originally Posted by Jakob

It would appear that you have no clue what a logical fallacy is. Where have I said that my experience must apply to all? Nowhere. I am also not discounting the role of expectation, but rather stating that my own experience has been similar to Stephen's. I have been a lucid dreamer for a long, long, long time, have done my research on this subject, and have talked to many serious lucid dreamers about topics such as these. From what I have gathered, there are more lucid dreamers who would agree with Stephen's assessment of dream transportation, than yours. That has been my experience with this topic. Perhaps you are an exceptionally talented lucid dreamer who has absolutely no hindrances in his dreams. I can accept that there are such people, but I refuse to accept that this applies to the majority.

I'm not saying that you or Mr. Berlin ever explicitly asserted your experiences over those of others, only that the tone of authority with which you said it seemed to imply so. Also, the rule of majority does not make a viewpoint correct (keeping track of the fallacies ). I'm sorry if I didn't express myself clearly enough earlier but I really haven't been attempting to attack or undermine what are clearly very educated and experienced views that both you and Stephen express. Rather, this discussion has thrown up an issue that I've seen often in discussions of lucid dreaming, self-defeating thoughts (more on this later), that prevents many oneironauts from achieving their full potential in induction and control.

And to clairfy: By "serious" lucid dreamers I mean those who don't claim they can astral project, share dreams with others, and communicate with otherworldly beings. They have been lucid dreaming for many many years, they are above the age of 16, and they're not obsessed with Dragonball-Z.

I don't see why you feel the need to define lucid dreamers in such specific demographics :/ For my part, I'm fine with lucid dreamers believing in more esoteric elements of dreaming phenomenon as long as it doesn't get in the way of advancing actual scientific knowledge. And I think people below the age of 16 should have as much of an opportunity to lucid dream as the rest of us, many of the best lucid dreamers have done it naturally since early childhood. I've never seen Dragonball-Z, is it any good?

I am specifically talking about lucid dreamers who participated in the old discussion forum on the Lucidity Institute website. I am also talking about associates of Stephen LaBerge, the author of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, who really knows lucid dreaming inside and out. Almost everyone there, yes, almost every single person, had major problems with ground transportation for longer (i repeat: LONGER) walking distances.

That must have been a great experience, learning from associates of Laberge, I love ETWOLD, every lucid dreamer should read it, if only since modern lucid dreaming practice owes such a debt to Laberge for introducing LDing to mainstream psychology.

The issue is not "why" it happens. Stephen is simply saying that it has been his experience, and perhaps the experience of people he discussed this with, that ground transportation in dreams can be very problematic. He even himself said that there are a huge number of factors.

This is the very issue I have with what you've said, imposing limitations without questioning what is causing it, ignoring other factors.

I'll take a look at it. But if it is of the same "substance" as the "Etiquette of Shared Dreaming" article, then I'll pass, thank you.

Billybob didn't write that particular article, but I respect WakingNomad (the author of the thread you mention) as one of the most proficient oneironauts on the forum, he's achieved things most of us can only dream of (pun intended).

Nonsense. I have not disregarded the expectation effect. I am simply saying that expectation is influenced by other factors, which "limit" the effects of expectation.

Your understanding is way off. Here it is, in practice, what I mean by "I place no limits, but the dreams do.":

Me, in a lucid state: YES! Great. This is a lucid dream, I am lying in my bed asleep. None of this is real, I can control everything. This house isn't real, it's all a product of my mind. Blah blah blah, I am able to change everything. YAYYY!!

I wave my hand and attempt to generate a dream character, we'll call him "X". Nothing happens.
I try "calling" him, summoning him. Nothing happens.
I ask a dream character to lead me to him. Nothing happens.
Then I stand infront of a door, and fully expect person X to be in that room. Nothing happens.

There have been cases such as these in my dreams. Whereas in others, I am able to summon a dream character easily, without much effort. That is what I am saying this whole time. In my experience, being a lucid dreamer, reading about lucid dreaming, about dreamer's experiences, and so on and so forth, I was able to conclude, just as Stephen Berlin in this thread, that unless a lucid dreamer is exceptionally talented at this LDing, he will experience many difficulties, distractions, and obstacles.

Ok here's the main issue. My problem is that the limitation is self-defeating attitudes (if you're familiar with cognitive psychology this should resonate with you). Essentially, we can establish negative thought patterns that directly impact our ability to control aspects of the dream (as with driving in dreams, long distance walking). These mental limitations don't need to be consciously thought expectations, remember we're dealing with the realm of unconscious material, dreams. As such you may consciously be confident in your dream control attempts, but your unconscious expectations prevent you from carrying out the action, either because of your own doubts or because people have said you can or can't do X. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, but it leads newbie lucid dreamers to have issues with not only simple control, but also in inducing lucid dreams in the first place. The healthiest assumption to have in dreams (and waking life) is that the possibilities are limitless.

Actually, the complete science on how dreams form and how they work, has not been scientifically "confirmed." There is not "one opinion" on dreams, but hundreds, if not thousands. And even in virtual worlds there are limits. Video games have their limits too.

Quite true, there have been many theories on dreaming, from Freud's psychodynamic and Jung's analytical theories to the more recent 'Activation-Synthesis' model put forward by Hobson, we can't discount any of these theories without a more thorough understanding of the actual mechanics of dreaming, lucid dreaming seems to present a tool to do so.

You seemed to have completed missed the point of Stephen's post, and my post as well. Neither of us are saying it is impossible to do task X. We are simply saying that in our experience, and in the experience of many experienced lucid dreamers we associated with, that task X, in this case, ground transportation for longer walking distances, is difficult to achieve.

I'm saying that it's damaging to make statements over what and what isn't possible for reasons outlined above.

Not impossible, but difficult nonetheless. Read the very first sentence of Stephen's post. He says: "Navigating your way around in a lucid dream can be tricky."
Not must be tricky, but can be. There is a difference. He is not forcing his opinions/experiences on others, and neither should you.

True, but people tend to cut past neat and polite qualifying statements such as 'can be tricky' and turn statements into more direct messages such as 'you can't drive in dreams.

Thanks for the interesting discussion, I appreciated hearing your opinions. Also, I have to say I liked your recent WILD guide, very simple but effective

Edit: Ninja-ed by C-Dawg.

Don't worry guys. I got this.

Originally Posted by Jakob

It would appear that you have no clue what a logical fallacy is. Where have I said that my experience must apply to all? Nowhere. I am also not discounting the role of expectation, but rather stating that my own experience has been similar to Stephen's.

Point conceded. Your argument was that of counterexample and was successful in supporting your assertion that extreme amounts of awareness do not always result in the ability to do anything.

Good job. ಠ_ರೃ

Originally Posted by Jakob

I have been a lucid dreamer for a long, long, long time, have done my research on this subject, and have talked to many serious lucid dreamers about topics such as these. From what I have gathered, there are more lucid dreamers who would agree with Stephen's assessment of dream transportation, than yours.

There are more people in this world that believe in a deity than those who do not.

Your point here is invalid and serves only as a vessel to communicate an experience. Not an argument.

Originally Posted by Jakob

That has been my experience with this topic. Perhaps you are an exceptionally talented lucid dreamer who has absolutely no hindrances in his dreams. I can accept that there are such people, but I refuse to accept that this applies to the majority.

Your loss, I guess.

I used to have limitations, too. Then I figured out how dreams worked and achieved total control on-demand. No big.

Originally Posted by Jakob

And to clairfy: By "serious" lucid dreamers I mean those who don't claim they can astral project, share dreams with others, and communicate with otherworldly beings. They have been lucid dreaming for many many years, they are above the age of 16, and they're not obsessed with Dragonball-Z.

I am specifically talking about lucid dreamers who participated in the old discussion forum on the Lucidity Institute website. I am also talking about associates of Stephen LaBerge, the author of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, who really knows lucid dreaming inside and out. Almost everyone there, yes, almost every single person, had major problems with ground transportation for longer (i repeat: LONGER) walking distances.

I'm an associate with a few of Stephen's (LaBerge) associates, if that means anything to you (hint: it shouldn't). However, I did most of my more intensive learning solo. As did BillyBob, and pretty much all the "best" LDers I know. I find it interesting BillyBob and I often came to similar conclusions independently.

I think Sageous might have something to say regarding this point, if he goes for the steak.

Originally Posted by Jakob

The issue is not "why" it happens. Stephen is simply saying that it has been his experience, and perhaps the experience of people he discussed this with, that ground transportation in dreams can be very problematic. He even himself said that there are a huge number of factors.

That's exactly the issue. If you don't seek to understand the "why," you'll never be clear on the "how." Just look at Tesla and all the amazing stuff he discovered years before anyone else thought of "how" to use it. He focused on the "why" whereas greedy businessmen like Edison only cared about the "how" since that's what makes you rich if most people don't know the "why."

Originally Posted by Jakob

I'll take a look at it. But if it is of the same "substance" as the "Etiquette of Shared Dreaming" article, then I'll pass, thank you.

I laughed pretty hard here. Not gonna lie.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Nonsense. I have not disregarded the expectation effect. I am simply saying that expectation is influenced by other factors, which "limit" the effects of expectation.

I don't think anyone active in this thread right now will disagree with you here.

Originally Posted by Jakob

Your understanding is way off. Here it is, in practice, what I mean by "I place no limits, but the dreams do.":

Me, in a lucid state: YES! Great. This is a lucid dream, I am lying in my bed asleep. None of this is real, I can control everything. This house isn't real, it's all a product of my mind. Blah blah blah, I am able to change everything. YAYYY!!

I wave my hand and attempt to generate a dream character, we'll call him "X". Nothing happens.
I try "calling" him, summoning him. Nothing happens.
I ask a dream character to lead me to him. Nothing happens.
Then I stand infront of a door, and fully expect person X to be in that room. Nothing happens.

I could probably give you a decent diagnosis if you went into more detail and stepped me through your exact thought process. Knowing the material you read before having these sorts of lucids would also be helpful.

To be completely honest, the best way to research the caveats of dream control would employ the Delphi method to some degree. The less cross contamination, the better.

Originally Posted by Jakob

There have been cases such as these in my dreams. Whereas in others, I am able to summon a dream character easily, without much effort. That is what I am saying this whole time. In my experience, being a lucid dreamer, reading about lucid dreaming, about dreamer's experiences, and so on and so forth, I was able to conclude, just as Stephen Berlin in this thread, that unless a lucid dreamer is exceptionally talented at this LDing, he will experience many difficulties, distractions, and obstacles.

Have you ever looked into the key differences between your state of mind and thought patterns between the instances you were able to do something successfully and the ones you weren't?

I imagine that might be a good place to start digging. But hey, what do I know?

Originally Posted by Jakob

Actually, the complete science on how dreams form and how they work, has not been scientifically "confirmed." There is not "one opinion" on dreams, but hundreds, if not thousands. And even in virtual worlds there are limits. Video games have their limits too.

Oh gods. You brought up the video game thing.

Gotta ignore the strawman.

*breathes deeply*

Don't hold your breath for confirmation any time soon. The best anyone can do is combine introspective anecdotes with what we do know about the brain and how it operates. Most theories only approach the issue from one school of thought, but without better measuring equipment the best model will be the one that considers all the evidence, no matter how...sketchy.

*un-breathes deeply*

Originally Posted by Jakob

You seemed to have completed missed the point of Stephen's post, and my post as well. Neither of us are saying it is impossible to do task X. We are simply saying that in our experience, and in the experience of many experienced lucid dreamers we associated with, that task X, in this case, ground transportation for longer walking distances, is difficult to achieve.

Not impossible, but difficult nonetheless. Read the very first sentence of Stephen's post. He says: "Navigating your way around in a lucid dream can be tricky."

Not must be tricky, but can be. There is a difference. He is not forcing his opinions/experiences on others, and neither should you.

Best wishes,
Jakob

Yep, the "can" qualifier definitely absolves you guys from potentially implanting that idea into the heads of newbies. They'll just think it's the norm, and thus applicable to them. Since...you know...you claim it is.

Originally Posted by Jakob

And to clairfy: By "serious" lucid dreamers I mean those who don't claim they can astral project, share dreams with others, and communicate with otherworldly beings. They have been lucid dreaming for many many years, they are above the age of 16, and they're not obsessed with Dragonball-Z.

If somebody has believes that aren't similar to yours, his or her lucid experience should be completely disregarded?

The level of this discussion is disappointing. So much anger here, or should I rather say pride. Absolutely ungrounded pride, too, and pretty blind. When somebody is telling you he or she has had a different experience, it becomes obvious that your previous assumptions were wrong. Nobody dies from admitting that they were wrong.

Thanks for leaping into the fray there, Mzzkc, to be honest a link to your thread on dream control could have saved you typing all of that out http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/unifyi...ontrol-117900/ It also helpfully provides links to Billybob's and Cusp's thoughts on the subject.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Have you ever looked into the key differences between your state of mind and thought patterns between the instances you were able to do something successfully and the ones you weren't?

This is an important point, complex psychological drives play a pivotal role. For instance, my palpable fear of heights confounded many of my early attempts at flying. But not for a second did I simply assume that flying is 'tricky' in dreams. Why would I deny any experience in a world that is the construct of my mind alone and not bound by physical boundaries. Let me put it to you, Jakob and Berlin, that the only barriers in dreams are psychological.

Here's why this is important to discuss, while most people seem to think it's fine to say that you can't read or switch on lights in dreams, and that dream sex wakes you up (it should be self-evident why these statements are damaging), I don't think either of you would claim that you shouldn't fly in dreams, and yet I have seen some members of the forum instructing individuals without any lucid dreaming experience of their own that they shouldn't fly 'or do exciting things' in lucid dreams in fear of waking up.

Why bother lucid dreaming at all?

Originally Posted by Intfere

Nobody dies from admitting that they were wrong.

No, but their genes do. ^.^

@Jakob and Stephen; You may be wondering why I have such a strong conviction that the only boundaries are psychological and not physical. Taking the example of dream sex, in my early days of lucid dreaming I read so many opinions on this forum expressing that dream sex is impossible that the very thought of it in a dream woke me. What reason for this is there? The accepted view is that sex causes too much physiological arousal and you 'lose the dream'. Well, studies by Laberge found that dream sex corresponded with activity in the genitals but with no raise in heart rate. Furthermore the are plenty of experiences in dreams that cause physiological arousal (non-lucid dream sex, nightmares) that do not lead to awakening.

Where did these limiting views start? Just look at the psychological baggage of sex. Freud may have been onto something with the whole repression thing.