Silly section.

[Hugh]

Hi there peeps. Topic would be more appropriately named 'Counter-productive Section'. I believe the dream control section is an unnecessary part of the forum; it inhibits dreamers and their control in my opinion, rather than improving/promoting it. All the threads in here, or most of them, seem to be about users not being able to achieve certain things in their dreams, may it be minuscule tasks, or rather large and formidable ones. It may be useful for users to be able to post their issues and have responses given to them, however what impression does a section like this give to someone who's not lucid dreamt before? Or who is considering dream control more seriously and wants to know more about the possibilities? I'll tell you what it does, it imposes a fictional limit, especially on the easily influenced. Personally, I believe dream control should be an unwritten law; people should go into dreams (lucid of course) and know that they are going to have control over everything, rather than hearing X, Z and Y failed at this technique, so there's a good chance it's going to be hard for them to accomplish too. Stickies, tips, all of the threads that aren't related to inability should be kept as a confidence boost and a way of teaching the dream-illiterate that they are able to do whatever they want (as of course, it's a completely new concept and type of freedom if you've never had it before) - however promoting publicly accessible threads with people making commonplace of failed attempts at control I think give a bad influence or image of the dreamworld to new/inexperienced dreamers. Without a doubt, it's useful to have all the posts within the thread to help the user with their predicament... however would they have doubts in themselves if they'd had nothing but positive, confident words burned into their skulls from square one? Just food for though, opinions are welcome - I just know that most people take the negative things away from discussions rather than the positive (and surreal) ideas, as negativity tends to be easy to accept. Thanks.

[Zoth]

Nice post Hugh, I like your thinking regarding the topic. For one thing, there's still some misconceptions regarding dream control. For example? Does lucidity mean dream control? The answer is YES. Before many people start to disagree, let me post why this is such a linear answer. When you are lucid, being aware of what you're dreaming, what do you do? You look around, you take attention in some aspect of the dream, you make plans and act according to your will. This is dream control. I am controlling the dream from the moment I decide I want to follow the plot, or that I want to let X event flow. The dream is influenced by my attention on a specific event or aspect and it flows from there. Does anyone think they're in a 3D dimensional space when they're dreaming? That there is anything solid, like a house, like inside and outside, like near or far? There isn't, all that you're experiencing is a mental model of (an) universe. In fact, that's why you tend to see the most experienced lucid dreamers with the highest degree of dream control. They understand that since there are no limitations, it isn't odd in an way to imagine a planet being destroyed by a single beam out of their fingers, or other things like that. Beginners on the other hand tend to get stuck with things like gravity, solid objects, behavior from dream characters, etc. Knowing that you're in a dream is not enough: you have to understand it, and at deeper levels of understanding, you'll improve your dream control just by pure realization. Now I disagree with you due a simple fact: people will post dream control questions no matter what, everyone has doubts at some point of the journey. As a community, we strike for help among members: and if that means giving far more specific advice, personalized and in a smaller scale at a time, it's all good. Because in the end, an explanation might not make sense for one member but make for other, and even though in essence we're giving them the same advice, we're making sure that each of these people has some helpful advice that can help them realize the true meaning of control PS: this would be better be moved to Community Suggestions, but other people might have some opinions the'd like to share as you stated, so let's see how it goes

[Ctharlhie]

It's so important that this issue is raised. Despite the efforts of some notable members (I'm thinking Billybob) to bring to light the limits imposed by internalising negative forum discourse (concerning both control and induction), most boards on the forum remain 'troubleshooting' zones. People will always meet difficulty, but the approach that most new LDers take is to meet some obstacle and rather than to see it as a challenge to overcome, see the difficulty as some immutable law of the dreamscape; these ideas then disseminate through internet discourse. We all know these 'rules' very well; don't force things to happen, don't have sex, whatever you do, don't close your eyes. The Tibetan dream yoga approach is rather refreshing. They believe that any difficulty in controlling the dream arises from the dreamer still relating to the dream as if it were real on some level. The solution is to manipulate everything experienced in the dream until a flexible mindset is attained and knowledge of the dream is achieved, then the much more difficult goal, knowledge of the self, can be pursued. I think the forum needs an 'advanced control' board where ideas can be discussed separate from the (in some cases necessary) help threads.

[Zoth]

I think the forum needs an 'advanced control' board where ideas can be discussed separate from the (in some cases necessary) help threads. Forgot to mention this in my post, but I also agree that the more "interesting topics" are (not just in this particular sub-forum), dragged into oblivion due the majority of the topics being of help and advice. I'd love for example a thread regarding more complex ideas of dream control and how people perform them. Ultimately yes, even a thought can produce them, but just as it's interesting that some people fly in very weird ways, it's always nice to see how some perform some degrees of control or tackle hard challenges ^^

[Arra]

The OP may have some truth to it. Some people may be influenced by the fact that other people find it so difficult. Then again, it can't be done away with and a Dream Control sub-forum does seem necessary. Speaking personally, when I was having LDs a lot, dream control was a big problem. I was having several LDs a night, but couldn't stay in a dream for more than like 10 seconds, and I didn't even have access to the internet. For me, it probably would have helped to post about it and hear people's advice. What I'm saying is, if, at that time, I'd had a DV account, the existence of the Dream Control forum would have helped me a lot. Although the OP raises valid concerns, it may be a worthy sacrifice because the forum is an essential part of DV.

[melanieb]

however promoting publicly accessible threads with people making commonplace of failed attempts at control I think give a bad influence or image of the dreamworld to new/inexperienced dreamers. It's a good thing we have so many great staff-members and helpful people around the forum to dispel the myths and limitations. If we didn't, we might not have all these people asking here for help. If you want to create a thread for advanced control...make a thread. If you have Executive Membership you can even have your own User Forum. You could also help by participating in the DVA where we attempt to teach new members how to overcome the obstacles they perceive. The great thing about DV is you have so many possible ways to encourage people with positive advice. @Hugh - How good is your lucid dream control?

[gab]

Everything that you ever read will influence you. If you never read anything, you won't be influenced, but you will also have hard time learning stuff. You can of course find out a lot by experimenting yourself, but in something so new and strange as lucid dreaming, help and ideas from others certainly help. With all the tutorials and helpful answers we have here, we also try to stress the importance of not taking it all as cast in stone. Everything here is just an idea, that is up to every individual to adjust, so it fits him the best.

[Sageous]

I find myself agreeing with Hugh, both for the reasons he presented in the OP and also for the reasons Zoth and Ctharlhie present. Dream control, as Zoth said quite well, is lucid dreaming. In a sense, it is a side-effect of the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a dream: you know you're dreaming, so you know this world around you isn't real, and, especially after your awareness matures in the LD's, you will know that you can do anything in your dream, whether you had planned to do so or not. [ps: for what it's worth, this is the only route to real dream control; there are no shortcuts or techniques to get you there without self-awareness] So, since dream control is lucid dreaming, does it really make sense to belittle it with techniques and rules, or rather to elevate rules and techniques above the simple and profound nature of dream control? I don't think so... For instance, I broke the three "rules" Ctharlhie noted (don't force things to happen, don't have sex, whatever you do, don't close your eyes) many times without any damage to my awareness. It may have taken some time to be able to do these things easily without waking up, but that time wasn't spent practicing clever techniques or even the things themselves, but instead building my self-awareness, effectively maturing my Self in dreams. Control came along for the ride. Dream control is a reflection of your presence in a dream, and in my opinion isn't conducive to rules, techniques, or, of course, limits. In fact, its establishment as a "thing that needs to be done," or, worse, "can't be done," may doom many new dreamers to a path of attempting to do stuff, much of it artificial (as in not of their own invention), rather than explore the world they create for themselves every night. And, sadly, they'll likely fail because their incorrect rendition of dream control will cause them to ignore its real nature. Also, as Hugh noted, they'll have an expectation of failure due both to reading all these threads and finding during the dream that their attempt isn't going exactly as prescribed in what they read. I remember a long time ago I was talking with a group of LD'ers who had me absolutely baffled: they were telling me all these things about dream control, all these rules, and, when I looked at them and asked rhetorically if dream control wasn't simply a part of LD'ing, they just looked at me funny... the damage was already done. Also, for what it's worth, I feel that all of you are right, at least partially: dream control may be a natural, literally unavoidable part of LD'ing and it's not a good idea to list so many rules, limits, and negative statements about "achieving" it, but it's going to be talked about regardless. So a forum for it, staffed by responsible dream guides, is likely unavoidable. tl;dr: Hugh and Zoth, hell, all of you are right: a dream control forum serves to misrepresent it and is fraught with destructive negativity, but the best we can do is treat posts responsibly and avoid elevating rules, techniques, and that negativity.

[Hugh]

Lucid dreaming and dream control have been referred to and cast in solid stone as two different achievements; in reality though, they should come hand in hand, once you achieve lucidity you should of had the concept of controlling your dream burnt in with nothing but positive stories on the topic. Understandably, there'll always be hiccups in achieving complete control considering it's a whole new realm to someone who's not done it before, with most people being accustomed to believing reality's set of rules, without the ability to accept anything different (or with a great deal of trouble doing so). Of course, due to dream control being such a cool and interesting subject, the need for a section is definitely there - all this thread was brought up for was to highlight the fact that it perhaps does have a negative affect on certain dreamers, mainly those who are new and haven't got a clue what to expect, or haven't really grasped the level of freedom the dream-scape offers them. Like anything, there'll always be negative as well as positive discussion, however due to human nature as mentioned before, negativity will be accepted without question where as positive views will be shunned aside or negated due to other user's negative experiences. While reading this forum, I try take everything in as a story, not a warning or an expectation. Nightmares and dream control are unique, however taken the wrong way can influence the person into being burdened with similar issues - I personally get influenced and flooded with bad thoughts if I read nightmare topics, so I try to stay away - I'm one of those people who think of the worst when hearing the tiniest, most insignificant noise. However sections on induction techniques etc, though they do contain posts sharing failed attempts, are in my opinion required just because things like WILD should be criticised and fed back on so the method in achieving the technique can both be improved, and possibly improvised for those who cannot do it a specific way. Anyhow, before I venture too much off the topic, I'd just like to say I am in no way saying remove the section, I'm merely suggesting the issues resolved in the dream control section may have actually been indirectly caused by the section itself; though, this is only a thought and may be completely, or substantially wrong. @melanieb Because of my home life and my living circumstances (engaged, sharing a bed with someone who doesn't believe in lucid dreaming) I haven't really been able to venture into it all that much. Though, from the dreams I believe I can remember having with lucidity, my control wasn't half bad - confidence isn't something I lack, and will use anger and aggression to convey it if need be. Cheers for reading, post away.

[Mzzkc]

This is a cool thread that I no longer have to make. I am in agreement with Hugh, Sageous, Zoth, and Ctharlhie on most all points. @MelanieB Threads or user forums won't solve this issue. If they could, the problem wouldn't exist anymore. Furthermore, staff (and 'helpful' members) can only do so much, and I know (at least in the past) they would rarely get things right and would more often than not perpetuate the notion that people with difficulties should just "believe harder", whatever that means. The DVA is a huge time commitment and very much an "old boys" club, from what I've seen. It'd likely be difficult for Hugh to get his foot in the door as teacher this early into his DV career. @gab Why is it, do you think, that self-taught folks have much more "luck" when it comes to dream control than those who learned here on the Interwebz? Because that's certainly the trend I've seen throughout the years, and while correlation alone does not imply causation, there's strong support that forums such as this can play an inhibitory role on the learning process regardless of how helpful certain pieces of advice may turn out to be. Besides that... Carry on.

[dutchraptor]

There is so much win in this thread! Finally people sharing my belief that to properly lucid dream, is to be in full control of the dream world. There is one problem... While I'm sure a change will only the site some good, I'm not so sure that people will actually ever stop have such a negative attitude. It seems that what we really do here is get people introduced to lucid dreaming, the ones who have the willpower to do so will eventually get there, despite at first stopping because they thought they were limited. I was lucky to get it on my second sho but some only get it after trying 4 or 5 times and I think that the people who ask the most questions are the one's who aren't always ready mentally yet to stick to it. It would be nice to have a place where we can have serious discussions about dreams and have actual proper analyzations (lol autocorrect doesn't recognize that word) of different techniques and how to use them. We need to rename a forum "Need some quick help" and another "for people who really wanna learn"

[Hugh]

I love reading how much control people have managed to achieve throughout their dreams, therefore I wouldn't want the topic of dream control completely removed, rather focused on what people have achieved, rather than what they haven't been able to. You are right Dutch; just by asking the question of how to achieve something, instantly shows doubt and/or a lack of confidence in their own abilities. There's no method, there's no levels of dream control as constantly uttered in this forum - there's only techniques, techniques that are familiar to the dreamer; these are usually methods seen in films etc that they can relate to and can put some sort of belief into, allowing them to at least consider the idea that it might actually work if executed exactly how their favourite hero for example does it. Let's not change what we already have - however let's actually consider what we're doing by listing different levels of dream control. Basic and advanced tasks are a good example; the minute you list something as advanced, to a novice inexperienced dreamer, it instantly comes across as something that's going to be difficult to achieve. A lot of stories of failed challenge attempts are from items not appearing, or dream characters responding incorrectly; both of these are spurred back a lack of confidence/certainty that they'll get the response they are looking for. Anyway, dream control is cool, and whether this forum is ran one way, or whether it's ran another, people tend to get something beneficial out of it anyhow so lets not be brash and change something that's worked fairly well as a section so far, into something that may fall, crumble and cause a portion of the community to react with anger.

[melanieb]

This is a cool thread that I no longer have to make. I am in agreement with Hugh, Sageous, Zoth, and Ctharlhie on most all points. @MelanieB Threads or user forums won't solve this issue. If they could, the problem wouldn't exist anymore. If there's a better way to respond to the individual questions of people who have different levels of familiarity and understanding of lucid dreaming I would be glad to hear it. If I recall, that was the reason why we created a thread on sleep paralysis. Furthermore, staff (and 'helpful' members) can only do so much, and I know (at least in the past) they would rarely get things right and would more often than not perpetuate the notion that people with difficulties should just "believe harder", whatever that means. Staff, and some amazingly helpful members, are definitely trying hard to "get things right" and we have all those past mistakes to learn from. I'm constantly surprised by old material that resurfaces and reducing myths is a big part of our job right now. Dream Guides and Moderators actually have quite a few active projects in the works and you should expect to see a lot of changes within the coming year. Still, cleaning up the old mess and making a future with fewer mistakes takes patience and a lot of people agreeing on subjective experiences. Dreaming is the easy part...communicating ideas between dreamers remains the challenge. The DVA is a huge time commitment and very much an "old boys" club, from what I've seen. It'd likely be difficult for Hugh to get his foot in the door as teacher this early into his DV career. In my opinion this is the most misplaced comment in the thread. The DVA is definitely not a place only for veterans, nor is participation in the DVA limited to being an instructor. By taking a course, keeping up with an active DJ, and reading the DJs of others, anyone can participate and encourage others at the same time. It's true that teachers are commonly people who are good at providing advice and have experience...but that's only prudent. Still, I looked and all the current teachers are people who joined in 2011 or later, barring Sivason, and he has reduced his time on DV for personal reasons. We do have a few old threads in there, and some were started by people who are no longer around. Expect some of those to stick around and others to be moved. **Honestly, Mzzkc, I bet a lot of people would enjoy it if you helped teach/encourage people to find the lucid dreamer within themselves. You've been around a while and I know many people respect your ideas. I'm self-taught because I started having lucid dreams before I even knew they existed as something that people can learn to do. Of course many people come here lacking that experience and may never have it without someone sharing some basic helpful ideas. Some of those ideas may prove unhelpful or inhibitory but that's just how societies and communities work. If it wasn't going to be that way we might as well just make this a reference site with no input from anyone. Personally I would find that boring, and less helpful. I think we're all in agreement that 'rules' shouldn't apply to dreams, and we need to help people understand that in the best manner possible.

[Zoth]

If there's a better way to respond to the individual questions of people who have different levels of familiarity and understanding of lucid dreaming I would be glad to hear it. This, so much this. It's something that sometimes people forget. It's not like we can move to an approach where we encourage members to self-discovery more than we do already. People want specificity, people want solid answers, people want to know exactly what and what not. Lucid dreaming can be a process that every single human triggers in the same way (bla bla talk about the increased activity in specific brain areas), but the experience is at least completely subjective. And when people come here, they mostly don't want to know about the science of lucid dreaming, but instead they rather much talk about the art of lucid dreaming. How people do this, how people react to this, how do I do this, how do you achieved this...perfect examples of many threads. As much as the staff wants to promote a take on lucid dreaming that goes according to the essence of it, you can't simply dodge all the "help" threads with a complex (seemingly) group of concepts that form lucidity. A good example of this is when Sageous goes out and posts in some topics: although his explanation makes sense and has insight for many of us, it often leads to the OP rejecting his view because of a highly difference aspect on how they both approach lucidity. In the other hand, many people love to get responses like "the trick to do this is X" or "this technique is highly effective" even though everyone in this thread has realized by now that what technique you use is probably the least important thing in the whole concept. So what should we do? The most reasonable thing is finding an approach that actually works and brings the biggest degree of satisfaction between the community, and that is why there are guides and tips and tutorials (and there's many that aren't made by staff, but rather members sharing their ways), because that seems to work for most people. Basic and advanced task may seem a bad option for some people, but they are actually a great way of giving a sense of progression for many beginners: you think the basic task is easy, so you expect to perform them. If you end up doing an advanced one, you expect that you can repeat the same feat next month. There's no doubt that many of us would like to get rid of the HUGE amount of techniques, tricks, names, etc etc, but at the same time, they do help a lot structuring concepts that are hard to explain, or complex enough to demotivate a person that arrives here in hopes of just having fun with lucid dreaming. That's not to say that improvements can't be made, and you've seen one example when the staff took the effort of collecting all that info regarding SP. The thing is, every aspect of lucid dreaming is mostly objectivity achieved through subjectivity. If anyone has a way of presenting the objective principles while satisfying the subjective perceptions, then go ahead and share them ^^