Thread: Why is "everything", but dialating time possible in a lucid dream

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Here's a practical thought that just occurred to me, Alyzarin: Are any of these drugs/chemicals legal in the doses you might envision (especially if GABA, for instance, needs to be taken some way other than orally)? Will they need prescriptions to be acquired?

These sorts of questions may seem silly or premature when you're still in the academic phase of considering the drugs, but if they represent classes of chemicals that are pretty much out of your average LD'er's reach, perhaps that should be noted? Or is it too soon?

Of course, if these things are available OTC or online, never mind!

The legality of these vary by country, and while I know it is possible to get 4-HO-MPT (as well as many other tryptamines and phenaltheylines) online in Canada, I'm pretty sure it is covered under the Federal Analogue Act in the USA, being very similar in chemical structure to illegal drugs. I believe this is because they are just for recreational use at this point, if it was medically relevant or had some positive therapeutic effects it may be reclassified.

You can get straight GABA pills at pretty much any health foods store in Canada, there are also a bunch of online retailers who you can get pure powder from (which is way cheaper), but you would then have to weigh out specific doses and put them into pills your self.

Alyzarin there are a few more experiences I would like to let you know about, the first was with 2-CI which is a synthetic analogue of mescaline, It was extremely clear headed, and filled with geometric type hallucinations, very cool, also had that kind of trip control that I had with 4-HO-MPT, I would have been comfortable going about doing my normal daily tasks, like going out to the store while under the influence. Unfortunately, it seems to be classified as a Schedule I drug now in the US, so that might make obtaining difficult/a bad idea.

The other is diphenhydramine, available in OTC gravol/benadryl, when taken in high doses it has this weird effect where you will fall into a sleep like state without noticing it, while a hallucination takes over as your primary sense of reality. for example you could be sitting at your computer writing a post a dreamviews, finish it, hit the post button, then go to your room, get undressed and tuck yourself in to go to sleep, blink, and you are back sitting at your computer, you haven't actually done anything, but the hallucination was 100% convincing, very similar to schizophrenia. A friend of mine thought he was in his best freinds basement while he was walking around our residence in my 1st year of university. It's a real mind****, the downside is it has an extremely heavy body load at these dosages, including lowered heart rate and difficulty breathing, as well as you look completely retarded to anyone on the outside. Would not recommend this to anyone, but I would be interested to know how it achieves this effect.

Originally Posted by Ksero

Alyzarin there are a few more experiences I would like to let you know about, the first was with 2-CI which is a synthetic analogue of mescaline, It was extremely clear headed, and filled with geometric type hallucinations, very cool, also had that kind of trip control that I had with 4-HO-MPT, I would have been comfortable going about doing my normal daily tasks, like going out to the store while under the influence. Unfortunately, it seems to be classified as a Schedule I drug now in the US, so that might make obtaining difficult/a bad idea.

Thanks again for the input. 2C-I is something I happen to have experience with as well, and it is indeed, through relation to mescaline, quite similar in structure to dopamine. It is remarkably clearheaded too, and I can say at least from personal experience that this remains relatively true even at doses as high as 90 mg. Most phenethylamines seem to be pretty clear compared to most tryptamines, and I would wager that if what I theorized before is true then this could be explainable by the fact phenethylamines would be more on the level of effecting imagination and euphoria at the center without much need for emotional changes, whereas tryptamines would be recreating an entire transcendental experience which would of course take you a little further away from normal consciousness.

For the record, I wouldn't recommend taking 90 mg of 2C-I since we know so little about the safety of research chemicals, I'm kind of reckless lol. But the experience was quite intense, the body feeling was like an orgasm times a thousand, and I even saw entities. There were these ghostly blue girls in trippy outfits who were constantly phasing through me and moaning as they did, and as they moved through me I felt their touch within me just as if I had actually been touched, which would cause every atom in my being to rupture with incredible euphoria, which would also cause shockwaves that would then do the same to every other atom in the immediate vicinity, and so on and so forth.... I was completely 100% aware of what was going on at the time, no significant mental inhibitions at all. I feel that my experience, yours, and others' collectively support my theory pretty well.

Originally Posted by Ksero

The other is diphenhydramine, available in OTC gravol/benadryl, when taken in high doses it has this weird effect where you will fall into a sleep like state without noticing it, while a hallucination takes over as your primary sense of reality. for example you could be sitting at your computer writing a post a dreamviews, finish it, hit the post button, then go to your room, get undressed and tuck yourself in to go to sleep, blink, and you are back sitting at your computer, you haven't actually done anything, but the hallucination was 100% convincing, very similar to schizophrenia. A friend of mine thought he was in his best freinds basement while he was walking around our residence in my 1st year of university. It's a real mind****, the downside is it has an extremely heavy body load at these dosages, including lowered heart rate and difficulty breathing, as well as you look completely retarded to anyone on the outside. Would not recommend this to anyone, but I would be interested to know how it achieves this effect.

First, I would like to reiterate the last point here for anyone else reading. Do not use diphenhydramine to hallucinate. (Heck, I wouldn't even recommend using it for it's intended medicinal purpose.) Diphenhydramine is part of a hallucinogenic spectrum I have not yet mentioned here, the third major category which is generally placed next to psychedelics and dissociatives, known as deliriants. While there are some who consider these drugs useful for reasons such as astral travel, generally only in the most severe and reckless groups of psychonauts, most drug users will actively warn you against deliriants even while recommending wholeheartedly everything else because they are well-known for their potential to create incredibly long-lasting deficits in memory, motor control, and visual systems (up to and including lingering hallucinations), and often for negatively effecting vital organs, which increases with every use. Diphenhydramine in particular has been shown to have detrimental effects on heart function, which could go from only happening during the trip to something more permanent if it's used too frequently.

That being said, deliriants are something that interest me greatly. They are directly anticholinergic in nature, they work by blocking the activity of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, usually (but not always) relatively non-selectively. It's because of this that they cause severe disruptions in the way memories are encoded, understood, and recalled, which greatly contributes to the state of frank delirium from which these drugs get their name, a state in which blackouts, confusion, amnesia, and an overall mindset similar to non-lucidity occur. I actually did touch on this briefly I believe in my first post, when I mentioned that anticholinergics were one of the drugs which could cause your consciousness to blackout without making your body totally shut down. These drugs also don't cause even slightest amount of euphoria, in fact they pretty much make you feel like shit, unless you take so much that you have absolutely no idea what's going on anymore. They've even been used as poisons throughout history because they're so effectively disabling and toxic, through mechanisms unrelated to their psychological effects. There's not really much desirable about these drugs at all, other than that they do cause very vivid and realistic hallucinations. But that alone is enough to bring people who have an insatiable hunger for experimenting to try them out, people like me.

The highest dose of diphenhydramine I ever took was 1000 mg, which amounts to 40 of the basic strength Benadryl pills they sell here. I also took it on several occasions in doses between 300 and 700 mg, usually not very close together (thankfully). The hallucinations are extremely realistic and often completely indistinguishable from reality, at least until you've tripped on it enough to recognize the subtle differences and learn how to combat the delirium. They also work remarkably similar to dreams, including various things such as people walking into the room and talking to you, scenes randomly changing, and a similar feeling to "freedom" from the normal constraints of reality which I relate very much to just observing things in a lucid dream. There is also a distinct similarity in the kinds of hallucinations produced by deliriants versus psychedelics, minus all of the raw sensory stuff, though it can be difficult to understand without actually experiencing them both. However, what really interests me here is the way that people often say that muscimol also has a deliriant aspect, and that anticholinergics are really the only thing it can be related to in that regard. I haven't personally taken a large dose of muscimol, but I have taken enough to experience some of these deliriant-like effects, and I must say they are quite similar in many ways.

The anticholinergic that you see in research articles will almost universally be scopolamine, the most hallucinogenic chemical in most plants that contain tropane deliriants, such as datura, belladonna, brugmansia, henbane, mandrake, and etc. Diphenhydramine sometimes appears, but mostly just for antihistamine research. Scopolamine is much more selective in its action, and has been used safely in very low doses (relative to hallucinogenic effects) for things such as motion sickness, insomnia, anesthesia, and occasionally in small quantities of datura seeds as a dream enhancer. What's interesting though is that scopolamine, and by extension you can assume other anticholinergics, directly enhance the release of GABA in the hippocampus. It's possible that it does this by disrupting a system that acetylcholine has in place which works as sort of a flood control for GABA. When acetylcholine levels are very high then GABA levels can be lowered, unless they're also being directly increased by something else even more strongly, which would be the case with something like psychedelics, or dreams and near-death experiences if my theories are correct. This likely plays some role in regulating resting levels of consciousness, among other things. But because of this, when the receptors that cause this control, certain muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, are blocked, they facilitate more GABA release than is normally occurring, which could allow for heavy GABA(A) stimulation and all of the same things I've been talking about up to this point. Given the dream-like hallucinations and the comparisons to muscimol, it wouldn't surprise me at all if this is how they get their hallucinogenic effects.

So yes, anticholinergic deliriants actually could be another good example of this that would support what I'm saying. However, they should definitely not be considered for recreational use like the rest of these drugs might be. It is possible, though, that some of the dream-enhancing effects of scopolamine come from this increased GABA release, but any drug that blocks muscarinic acetylcholine receptors would be quite counterintuitive as far as becoming lucid goes.