Thread: Having sadist dreams. Just need some sort of possible clarification

If you enjoy this kind of violence only in a dream and not in waking life, and do not have a hidden desire for it in waking thought, then no you are not truly sadistic. Dreams exaggerate. Normal people can and do have crazy dreams. Oh and sometimes normal people enjoy some violent fantasy and as long as it does not translate into waking action, it does not have to be harmful.

I am not a violent person at all in waking real life. However, I do at times enjoy reading serial killer mystery books and such. I once had a very violent dream in which I participated in a gruesome civil war type uprising. I also once had a dream in which I was one of two amazon women going down the Amazon river on water scooters with machine guns and gunning down people on the shore on sort of a pleasure killing spree. And I woke up from that dream feeling empowered and not guilty.

Now the key is that in reality I am a very nonviolent woman, and in favor of gun control, and I would be like one of the last people ever to go on a pleasure shooting spree. So if I can have that kind of dream, anyone can. It's not having that kind of dream that determines one's personality and sanity level, it is evaluating one's personality overall especially waking life.

Oh, and what just occurred to me: I think the reason why I did not feel guilty or disturbed after the pleasure killing spree on the amazon river was because once I woke up I had absolutely no doubt that this was not something I would really do in waking life, so there was nothing to feel guilty about. Could it be that this is why you also felt no guilt after your dream? Conversely, I was furious with myself when I woke up after a dream in which I (a married woman) asked a coworker out on a date, even though the dream did not actually show the date, and even though I actually would not ask the coworker out, but I realized that the reason why I had this dream was because I had an illicit attraction to this coworker, and I had no business feeling that way. So I think that our reaction to a dream is in part indicative of whether there actually is a problem. Of course, a sociopath could have a dream about killing people and feel no guilt, but unless one is a sociopath, a lack of guilt may be indicative that there is nothing to feel guilty about there. However, conversely the presence of guilt would not mean that one feels that one would actually be likely to kill people of course, but then one needs to just examine one's emotions and think why one is feeling guilty and whether one is disturbed for healthy or unhealthy reasons. Does this make sense?

Joanna,

As I understand you, you're saying that having a sadistic dream doesn't imply that sadism sums up the 'truest' part of the person's character. And its good not to exaggerate the significance of the experience in a way that paralyzes a person with guilt. I agree with that. I think it must express a part of the person's character though. I don't mean that this makes the person worse than most other people, but I think its worth looking at, and that this is the value of the dream.

My thought on this may come across as a bit of a tirade, so I hope you don't take it personally. I don't have any problem with you or your dream advice. This is just a subject that's close to my heart as a simultaneously cruel and compassionate person who might have a more lucid perspective on it than others who bear less of the pain of that contradiction.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

If you enjoy this kind of violence only in a dream and not in waking life, and do not have a hidden desire for it in waking thought

It seems to me that this isn't even possible. If you enjoy it in a dream then a part of you would enjoy it in waking life, even if that part of you is much weaker than other parts of you which may be compassionate or want to do the right thing or be conflict adverse or afraid of consequences. Its all you. Even if you're empathizing with some other sadistic person's thoughts in the dream, and experiencing what its like to be them, in a limited sense its still you, because to some extent we internalize other people's outlooks like that when we're awake also.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I am not a violent person at all in waking real life. However, I do at times enjoy reading serial killer mystery books and such.

I don't see how you could possibly enjoy reading serial killer books unless you have a sadistic streak in you somewhere. It can't just be the desire to 'solve a puzzle', because there are a lot of other kinds of puzzles to solve that don't involve images or even implications of people being murdered. Or if you're appalled by serial killers and want to imagine doing something about it, without also being secretly excited by it, it seems to me that you'd apply yourself to ideals of mercy and justice but shrink away from images of killing, you would not want that stuff in your head.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I once had a very violent dream in which I participated in a gruesome civil war type uprising. I also once had a dream in which I was one of two amazon women going down the Amazon river on water scooters with machine guns and gunning down people on the shore on sort of a pleasure killing spree. And I woke up from that dream feeling empowered and not guilty.

In Mel Gibson movies, something appallingly wrong is done to someone Mel Gibson loves, which then justifies a murderous rampage. To varying degrees all of the movies in the Road Warrior and Lethal Weapon series are like that for instance. Why keep reusing the same plot? Its for the murderous rampage, and people watch it for the murderous rampage. I think people should just face up to the fact that they're sadists, at least in part.

I agree that violence expresses power. But there are other ways to express power that would seem less boring to us were we not vampires who live by killing and eating other living things. Most women are less aggressive than most men, apparently, so the hunting instinct may not be so much in the forefront of some women's emotional awareness. But gentle people still depend on other people having that aggression, and its still a part of what they are even if they don't feel or express it as naked a manner.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I think the reason why I did not feel guilty or disturbed after the pleasure killing spree on the amazon river was because once I woke up I had absolutely no doubt that this was not something I would really do in waking life, so there was nothing to feel guilty about.

Its true that there's less to feel guilty about in the dream, because what's going on there doesn't go as deep. But it does still matter, in quality if not in magnitude. I think that someday, somehow the desire will find a way to express itself. "There is nothing hidden that will not become manifest." A girl or boy will be born who embodies some of your denied or ostensibly 'consequence free' aggression, but who has more courage to express it or lacks your moral inhibitions. The child becomes a man. And somebody else will be on the receiving end of it, and a part of you is in them too.

Or it will play itself out in slow motion in your present life, like a disease or a painful work or social situation that's like being brutally beaten but slowed down and spread out thinly over a period of decades, so that you hardly recognize it as violence. I don't think everyone should worry about this sort of thing too much, because its not good to be too afraid of ourselves, of expressing who we are and experiencing the consequences. And guilt is counterproductive if the feeling is too much for you and you try to evade it, such as by pre-emptively punishing yourself emotionally in hopes of avoiding being punished by providence later. Also guilt is bad if its a lie or mistake in which you believe you have more power or responsibility than you actually have, and try to force yourself to change when you can't change that fast. But speaking from how I experience it, we need some guilt to change. We can intellectually believe in progress and redemption, but when we find the guilt in the part of our hearts that's truely guilty, and we answer it with humility and courage, that's key to actually changing.

I suggest that if mentalstasis is uncomfortable about the dream, that what it portrays seems unhealthy or wrong somehow, then they should respond by dialing back on the violent entertainment in waking life a little bit, and pay more attention to their empathy. Also look at other ways we hide violent behavior from ourselves. For example, Australian cattle are generally treated a lot better than American cattle. If you must eat beef, eat more of the Australian stuff. Or work in a little more lamb, shrimp, cheese, or God forbid, tofu. And pay a little more for dairy products from cows that are treated more humanely. We vote with the way we spend our money. If we just hide ourselves from this stuff while continuing to drive it with our behavior, it finds its way back to the source eventually.

Shadowofwind, After reading what you wrote, I thought about it, and came up with a better explanation for my case anyway - I do not know whether it applies for mental stasis, but maybe also?

No, I do not have a hidden desire for sadism, what I have a desire for is to overcome emotional masochism. I get depressed, and while in a sense maybe I am sadistic but toward myself, and just emotionally. I tell myself that I am worthless, and insecure, and too tired, and sick, and too stressed to function. I take anything that occurs then personally, whenever anyone is annoyed I interpret it as my fault.

So for me my sadist dream of pleasure killing others with machine gun was empowering because it was a letting go dream, a dream without guilt, a dream where I was not attacking myself for a change. I was in a position of liberated power not weakness.

And similarly my enjoyment of serial killer mysteries is part of my victim mentality. And sometimes I enjoy trying to free myself from that and so sometimes I may look at the other extreme, not because I am comfortable there, but because it liberates me from the extreme I naturally gravitate toward.

Thought about it some more, and alas other dream characters in dreams often represent aspects of dreamer's personality, so even when I attack others in dreams I am still attacking myself, in self destructive manner, so any sense of empowerment gained from that is an illusion - when I win, I also loose; I am both perpetrator and victim.