Thread: Starcraft 2

Awesome Marvo, that did the trick.

Originally Posted by Marvo

The problem is that macro is the core of your play. You should always try to establish good macro, before you dedicate too much of your time to micro. Requiem wasn't macroing his queen properly, so even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to actually produce all those units, because he simply didn't have the larvae for it.
At some point, you gotta say, either you focus more on your macro and a little less on your micro, in this case the drone, or vice versa. Requiem was very vunerable at the beginning of this game, and the terran could have done a ton of things that would have won him the game, because Requiem simply wasn't macroing enough. As I say just a little later in the video, it is very important you are very strict with your queen in the beginning of a game, because that's when you need to spend your minerals as good as you can, to give you that edge.

Nearly anyone you ask about how to practice SC2 will tell you to work on your macro first, and then focus on your micro, because without good macro, there won't be anything to micro in the first place.

Yep you're right; macro is king, especially as zerg. But he WAS doing some amazing micro for being silver; he had full vision of his base for the longest time ever. It was entertaining to watch

One thing I'm finding as I play zerg more and more, is that a fully saturated zerg base will have a higher income than I can expend. I've been experimenting, and it seems that getting 2 hatches very early, but not having them fully saturated, is a good balance to have. Since I play terran I'm used to fully saturating bases as I don't need to share production facilities with my SCVs.

So a fully saturated 1 base for terran is 6 on gas and 24 on minerals, so if you have ~15 workers at each base with just 2 gas up, you'll have the same income as a 1 base T / P, but you'll have 2 hatcheries to also match their output.

What do you think? This may be standard zerg play but I don't read any guides on it or anything, just experiment.

I haven't played zerg enough to give you a good answer about that. It isn't unusual for a zerg to have 2 or 3 hatcheries in their main, though as far as I know, that's usually towards the end of the game.

If you really can't use your resources quickly enough off of one hatchery with near perfect queen macro (in the beginning), then maybe you can use those excess resources you have on getting upgrades for your units. Some zerg players do go for very early expansions though, sometimes before their spawning pool even, though I don't think that's very safe against all-in cheese strategies, and knowing the ladder play in SC2, you even see that horseshit in diamond. But yeah, try to get some upgrades. One armor and one damage is incredibly good for zerglings, for example, though you definite want the speed first.

Originally Posted by Marvo

I haven't played zerg enough to give you a good answer about that. It isn't unusual for a zerg to have 2 or 3 hatcheries in their main, though as far as I know, that's usually towards the end of the game.

If you really can't use your resources quickly enough off of one hatchery with near perfect queen macro (in the beginning), then maybe you can use those excess resources you have on getting upgrades for your units. Some zerg players do go for very early expansions though, sometimes before their spawning pool even, though I don't think that's very safe against all-in cheese strategies, and knowing the ladder play in SC2, you even see that horseshit in diamond. But yeah, try to get some upgrades. One armor and one damage is incredibly good for zerglings, for example, though you definite want the speed first.

I play against my 2 friends in 2v1 (I'm platinum, they just bought the game) and I did try spending the excess cash on upgrades / buildings, but I found that if there isn't enough hatcheries, you won't get enough units up ever. They beat me as zerg last night, but as terran or protoss I absolutely stomped them into the ground; so I'm thinking its a fundemental issue rather than my gameplay.

My problem was I was trying to saturate zerg bases fully; terran mentality. I just watched an IdrA replay, and he has 2 hatcheries but only 28 drones; half of full saturation, so it seems that I'm on the right track. My queen micro actually is near perfect as I use a method that lets me inject every hatchery in under 3 seconds, so its never a problem for me. It was just that I was saturating my bases WAY too much for the little amount of production I had.

I think I'll try doing 2 hatch with around the equivelant of 1 T / P base worth of workers, and see how that goes for unit production. If I win a good push, I'll then try and grab another hatchery, or as you said, get some more drones and try and get some upgrades.

One thing I'm noticing though is zerg sits on a TON of excess gas early game. Is it worth hording the gas for mass Ultras later on, or do you think its best if I just ignore getting extra extractors and only get as need?

Maybe you should try to tech a little quicker. I think it's quite odd that you're unable to spend your minerals quickly enough. Maybe produce a little less drones as the game go along, or as you said your self, only have so many workers on your expansions.

I would't mind seeing a replay from you.
You can send them to this email, if you don't mind me checking them out: [email protected]

About gas, I would say that you need the initial 100 to get speed for zerglings, because that's nearly always good. From this point, it depends on what you're going to do. If you're gonna go roaches or hydralisks, you're not going to need that much gas obviously, but with mutas the cost is actually fairly high, 100 gas, so you're going to want a lot of gas. You also need gas for upgrades anyways, so gas certainly is good. If you think you won't be needing too much gas in a game, just put 2 workers in your extractors instead of 3. Gas balance can be incredibly difficult, especially because you might need to do radical tech shifts sometimes.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Maybe you should try to tech a little quicker. I think it's quite odd that you're unable to spend your minerals quickly enough. Maybe produce a little less drones as the game go along, or as you said your self, only have so many workers on your expansions.

I would't mind seeing a replay from you.
You can send them to this email, if you don't mind me checking them out: [email protected]

About gas, I would say that you need the initial 100 to get speed for zerglings, because that's nearly always good. From this point, it depends on what you're going to do. If you're gonna go roaches or hydralisks, you're not going to need that much gas obviously, but with mutas the cost is actually fairly high, 100 gas, so you're going to want a lot of gas. You also need gas for upgrades anyways, so gas certainly is good. If you think you won't be needing too much gas in a game, just put 2 workers in your extractors instead of 3. Gas balance can be incredibly difficult, especially because you might need to do radical tech shifts sometimes.

I don't play zerg on the ladder as I'm not good enough with them, but I can send you a zerg game against a very hard computer, as well as a terran ladder game (if I have a recent one saved). Oh, last night I also went on my friends account and was playing practice lague matches and doing a 4-nuke rush. I'll send you one of those you should upload it and link it here !!

Do you play EU or US? (guessing EU by your location).

Anyways yes I can easily pull off drones from my mineral line and tech like a mad man, but how is this any different than a terran or protoss player just teching the hell out of their base with no army?

I tried going 14 pool 15 hatch FE, and only getting 30 drones for mining and 2 gas. This did WONDERS; I had a large enough army to defend my base and make pushes. After pushes and good defends, I would build more drones and would work towards fully saturating both bases. The weird thing I did however, is I built 2 more hatcheries in my main to help with production, rather than build them at more mineral locations. This actually worked very well. Very easy to defend plus I could army swap the enemy, then within seconds have another full army on its way.

I'm doing my best to match T and P playstyle with zerg, and its working out very well so far. I'll see if I can get some replays to you! (as long as you commentate one!)

Oh and a fun fact, Insane computer for zerg goes double hatch per base. Just like how insane terran goes 1-1-1.

MARVO IS NOW DIAMONDS!

http://a.imageshack.us/img835/8228/p...diamondman.jpg <--- for full resolution

Marvo... I salute you.

Grats man

check this out

ESL TV: Video on Demand - Germany - ESL TV

so good

you don't need a perfect 'counter' or a the perfect combination of units
you just need more shit than the other guy

muta op

Originally Posted by no-Name

you don't need a perfect 'counter' or a the perfect combination of units
you just need more shit than the other guy

muta op

I know you're half-trolling, but those are hardly the conclusions to be drawn from that series. IdrA won by anticipating and surprising his opponent, weathering or heading off early pushes (in part with the right composition of units, including queens and spine crawlers) and keeping up the pressure so that his opponent didn't have the time or resources to respond. Also, it wasn't just the number of mutas he had, but that he introduced the "Magic Box" formation, throwing off his opponent's expectations of how many thors/marines he needed to counter.

In the majority of ZvT matches, mutas are about as far from OP as any unit in the game can get.

I am 1/4 trolling

because what IdrA did in that last game, from what I could see, was 'stay alive into mass mutalisk' and I don't think that's a bad way of saying it. IdrA did indeed let/force his opponent into going a traditional ground-heavy terran army with too little AA, but it wasn't even close. either IdrA's macro really is that amazing, or Tarson did something terribly wrong. would scouting have helped this more?

and most people are really overestimating thors against mutas. 7 mutas can take out a thor real easy, and without any of the mutas dying.

Well, 7 mutas are much more expensive than a Thor, so I'm not surprised they can take out a Thor.

I read somewhere that supposedly Idra has found a crazy way of microing mutas, so he can take out Thors.

it's not incredibly crazy, he just didn't bunch them up. the reason thors are considered a 'counter' to mutalisks is because of the splash damage, and how fast air units bunch up. IdrA just isn't letting them bunch up, so they don't take splash damage.

Yeah, I found some videos demonstration it. It's pretty cool

Originally Posted by Marvo

Well, 7 mutas are much more expensive than a Thor, so I'm not surprised they can take out a Thor.

I read somewhere that supposedly Idra has found a crazy way of microing mutas, so he can take out Thors.

Its called Magic Box; a term since BW.

Basically you let your mutas naturally spread out, then when you move them around, make sure you click outside of this 'box' so they don't bunch up (basically somewhere inside the mutas).

Then you issue a move command up to attack range with the mutas, and they'll retain formation. Once they're all in range, focus fire the the Thors and you'll win.

Here is a video showing 20 Muta's killing 5 thors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVLV5Rw5yNg

Originally Posted by Marvo

Yeah, I found some videos demonstration it. It's pretty cool

:V

It was really IdrA's micro and success in containing and resource blocking Tarson, as well as having intimidated Tarson with the previous 'surprise' defeat that won the final game. I know he makes it look easy, but he's perhaps the best zerg player on the planet right now.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

but he's perhaps the best zerg player on the planet right now.

yup

if you let him macro, and you don't apply pressure, you will lose. IdrA has all his fundamentals and perfect (and I do mean perfect) macro.

Finally. I am now Gold League and near the top too. Rank 13

That was some great advice I got from everyone so thanks a lot.

Marvo, diamond!? I read your post and thought "platinum". I thought I was catching up but here you are a whole league ahead of me. haha. Post another replay of yourself. One that best demonstrates your skill but you still lose.

And I'd like to see a game from Rathez.

I think I got an alright PvT, I'll see if I can get it up.

Originally Posted by Requiem

Finally. I am now Gold League and near the top too. Rank 13

That was some great advice I got from everyone so thanks a lot.

Marvo, diamond!? I read your post and thought "platinum". I thought I was catching up but here you are a whole league ahead of me. haha. Post another replay of yourself. One that best demonstrates your skill but you still lose.

And I'd like to see a game from Rathez.

Well I've been extremely busy this week and have had very little time to play any league matches worth watching.. and I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week. So you'll need to hold tight, but after that I'll have no work or anything for a couple days and I'll definitely hit Diamond / get you a replay!

It'll be as terran though, my zerg probably isn't worth watching

Edit: I was thinking of creating a Dream Views ladder for us to play for fun! However, I think a lot of people will have Sea.battle.net, while a lot of us will have US.Battle.net accounts.

Let me know guys if you're interested in a small tourny / ladder and I'll definitely organize something. And we wont let anyone above gold play their main race or something; keep it fun with a little competition

Originally Posted by Rathez

Let me know guys if you're interested in a small tourny / ladder and I'll definitely organize something. And we wont let anyone above gold play their main race or something; keep it fun with a little competition

Are there any other low level, say, bronze players here? I know I would get crushed if I joined a tourney with most of you guys.

That would be very interesting Rathez, though I'll have to actually buy a US version to play with you guys. I might actually go for a SEA version, since those guys will get access to the US realms soon, supposedly.