Conspiracy theories.

**ArcanumNoctis** · 08-07-2010 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Moto

You know, I think this is funny in a fashion. That people don't think that these large "conspiracies", which I really just label as people with a collective interest, are grouped together. But they forget one thing, and that is the discipline a human being can have, and they forget this, because they themselves do not have it

. In fact, I would generalize that every person who objects to all conspiracies, does not have a lot of discipline, which is why they couldn't imagine the level of discipline involved for an individual to have if they were involved with such a group. You see though, you can train discipline from an early age, which is why such collective interest groups, such as the ones behind banks, often push the ideas, motifs, and thought patterns through the generations, just as your father, and mother pushed their belief systems onto you. Now, many would argue that their father and mother did not have impact on you, say, they object to all their mothers and fathers beliefs. But the very fact that you push away from those beliefs, means that you are being affected by them

. So what does this mean "conspiracy" wise. All those people that supposedly have gotten together randomly, and formed these massive organizations to subvert the world their own interests, why, it isn't random, it isn't coincidental that they have gotten together, because their parents have taught them, have trained them into coming together, into forming connections with like minded people along the same goals. The problem is, that many of these goals often rise out of such ideas such as elitism, racism, and other superior thinking ideas. We see it in history quite clearly with WW2, and how the regime guiding Germany was very elitist in thought, and how everyone was connected, and how this changed the world. And yet, we think that this does not exist anymore, that this level of interconnection, across the world is impossible. I mean, its not like you can send an instantaneous message across the world, right? Its not like you could have super cryptographically secure systems sending these transmissions, right? Its not like this could ever arise out of the military industrial complex, right? That that system wouldn't try and keep itself continuous, right? Think about the ecology of the world, with regards to human behavior, instead of looking at individual conspiracy theories, and anyone will see that a mass group of people with like minds, and the correct amount of discipline, could accomplish anything. But in any case, this is all about to change.

What do you mean, this is all about to change?

**Noogah** · 08-07-2010 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dreamsun

At 9/11 topic: Noogah, I have only one question for you for a start. Why did the world trade center 7 collapse even though it wasn't hit by a plane?

Spartiate beat me to it.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition - World Trade Center 7, Building 7

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Conspiracies do happen, it's just that people don't care, care to know or it becomes an everyday natural occurence.

People shouldn't come up with conspiracy theories if there is nothing to be suspicious about.

And if you have read the arguments in this thread, or any of debunking911.com, you will see that there IS nothing to be suspicious about. All the "official stories" add up perfectly without flaw.

**Philosopher8659** · 08-07-2010 07:12 PM

I have quite a bit of the 911 documentaries, and if one does not come away uncertain of where to put their foot, they were asleep during the viewing. However, be that as it may, the greatest conspiracy of all time happens in the classrooms across the globe--and no one has the wit to comprehend it.

**Bonsay** · 08-07-2010 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Noogah

People shouldn't come up with conspiracy theories if there is nothing to be suspicious about.

And if you have read the arguments in this thread, or any of debunking911.com, you will see that there IS nothing to be suspicious about. All the "official stories" add up perfectly without flaw.

People should always come up with conspiracy theories. Especially when lives are at risk. Why not? So we don't hurt peoples feelings? If we are going to have this "freedom loving" western world, then anything should go. It's like draw muhammad day. We shouldn't care what people say about 911 or global warming, just for the sake of the topic and peoples ideological standpoints. If there is empirical data to "sway truth" logically to one said or the other, then it should be so and revealed as such - objectively. Istead of this, people get ridiculed for doubting the official global warming by idiots who know even less. Nowadays all you have to do to get people on your side in a public discussion is to say "We have people who don't believe X; but we also have people who don't believe the holocaust happened" *que sheep-pplause*.

I have no problem with Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition - World Trade Center 7, Building 7... meaning listening to "the other side" if it makes sense and is objectigve. All I'm saying:

I guess you'd like to not believe "the government" would ever do a 9 11, huh? Have you read my link... probably not; seeing that your response had nothing to do with my post, excluding the general topic. So if you read stuff, you might see what kind of crap goes on and maybe you'll feel less inclined to spread propaganda and your feelings. The facts are that CIA did plan 9 11 like inside jobs as a means to start the war with Cuba. The fact is that the final push for the Vietnam war came thanks to the attack on the US boat that didn't happen...

As I said, I don't and never will (until perhaps some fanatic manages to express it explicitly) care for people's opinions/feelings on topics that ruin the lives of thousands. I wonder if millions would have died in Vietnam if JFK wasn't assasinated, or if the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" wasn't used to start open war in Vietnam.

"Nobody" is saying that the US government is using mind control devices (But I think it's safe to say that people are being "mind controlled" via the media and propaganda.) or that the 9 11 planes were fake or whatever. Just never trust the governmnets, because they are here to fuck you over. When certain people stop dominating the world via propaganda, assasinations, blackmailing, etc. then we won't need "conspiracy theorists"... untill then, I'd like to keep them next to me, so they can keep me on my toes. I mean wtf... Obama signed some shit that allows CIA n'shit to kill people in america and the world if they do something Obama doesn't like. This has always been going on, but it's scary if I can be taken into some Guantanamo bay and tortured for nothing and nobody in the world does anything about it. Call me when the world becomes rational and I'll stop being a paranoid conspiracy theorist... untill then let me be.

**Dreamsun** · 08-07-2010 09:40 PM

For people who question in US government capability to kill it's own citizens in the name of extending power...

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Spartiate** · 08-07-2010 09:56 PM

"Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted[citation needed] and the proposals included in the plan were never executed."

**Noogah** · 08-07-2010 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bonsay

People should always come up with conspiracy theories. Especially when lives are at risk. Why not? So we don't hurt peoples feelings?

Don't be stupid. That makes no sense. If there is a good reason to believe something is a conspiracy, come up with a theory. Otherwise, don't.

Following your logic, let's set out to prove that every person that dies of heart disease, is actually dying because the government intentionally poisoned them. After all, why not? Let's set out to prove that the Japanese actually bombed Hiroshima, and that the United States actually bombed Perl Harbor. After all, why not? Let's set out to prove that Obama is actually a space alien. After all, why not? Lives are at risk. People have been killed.

Investigate, yes. If the investigations show nothing, and there is nothing that doesn't ultimately add up, quit pursuing it. The deed is done, and, yes. People's feelings will be hurt. Now, I understand that this means nothing to you, but in reality, it does. And, in any case, the conspiracy theory ultimately holds no water anyways.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I guess you'd like to not believe "the government" would ever do a 9 11, huh?

It's not something I would "like not to believe". I simply don't believe it. Why? Not because I am in some shocking state of denial, but for the simple reason that the said suspicion is both baseless, and ludicrous. I have no reason to. Now, if president Bush and his helpers suddenly came out and said "Look, we destroyed the twin towers, and here's how we did it..." then I would prefer not to believe it, but would. I understand that bad things happen. I understand the corruption of leaderships, and I don't even need to glance at your little link to understand that. History itself will speak such. People are corrupt, but, if the theory makes no sense, then there is no reason to mark obviously innocent people.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

The facts are that CIA did plan 9 11 like inside jobs as a means to start the war with Cuba. The fact is that the final push for the Vietnam war came thanks to the attack on the US boat that didn't happen...

Prove it. You've provided nothing so far that even gave a shred of reason to believe that.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

As I said, I don't and never will (until perhaps some fanatic manages to express it explicitly) care for people's opinions/feelings on topics that ruin the lives of thousands.

Sometimes it's the people who's lives are ruined that you're hurting.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Just never trust the governments, because they are here to win you over. When certain people stop dominating the world via propaganda, assasinations, blackmailing, etc. then we won't need "conspiracy theorists"... untill then, I'd like to keep them next to me, so they can keep me on my toes.

I don't explicitly trust the government. I don't explicitly doubt them either. If I worked like you, I would trust no one. Not my friends, relatives, siblings, or even parents. Not a shred.

There needs to be a balance between trust and and suspicion. Your problem is you don't want to be led. You're too independent for your own good. So much so, that you won't believe a word the government says, despite the fact that it is made up of people. Like you. If you had your way, there would be no government. There would be no leaders, and no order. No chiefs, no bosses, nothing. You would live in a disorganized hell on earth.

I distrust Obama myself. I don't trust this health care plan, I don't trust his foreign policies, but I'm open to him. I'm willing to look at what he says in more than one light. Unlike you, I give people chances.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Call me when the world becomes rational and I'll stop being a paranoid conspiracy theorist

Have you stopped to consider that maybe the reason the world seems so irrational to you is because you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist, and not the other way around?

Anyways, sure. I'll leave alone now.

Originally Posted by Dreamsun

For people who question in US government capability to kill it's own citizens in the name of extending power...

Right. The government has killed people in the name of extending power.

I think we've covered this.

Next step: give us a reason to believe they destroyed the World Trade Center.

Oh yeah, and...

Originally Posted by Spartiate

"Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted[citation needed] and the proposals included in the plan were never executed."

This.

**ArcanumNoctis** · 08-07-2010 10:31 PM

Noogah, how do you see the world?

**Noogah** · 08-07-2010 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

Noogah, how do you see the world?

Not very specific. I could interpret that question in many different ways.

Could you expound?

**ArcanumNoctis** · 08-07-2010 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Noogah

Not very specific. I could interpret that question in many different ways.

Could you expound?

Do you see the operations of things in your life on a local, national, or global level? Do you see it as very organized, very chaotic, or both?

**Alric** · 08-07-2010 10:49 PM

Of course you can't trust what the government says. You should never trust even a single thing they say, unless there is ample proof to back it up. Given half a chance, the government will screw you. Our government is rotten through and through. Elected politicians ignore the people and push through their own agendas. Its why our economy is suffering so much right now, its because of corruption. Our debt isn't as large as it is due to incompetents its due to corruption.

**Noogah** · 08-08-2010 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

Do you see the operations of things in your life on a local, national, or global level? Do you see it as very organized, very chaotic, or both?

I see my operations as they are on a local, national, and global level. In other words, I know my influence and place both locally, nationally, and globally.

It's organized and chaotic at the same time. Mankind has tried to organize itself, and considering the state of humanity, has done a pretty good job. But by standards of perfection, it's still pretty chaotic.

I think that answers your question. If it doesn't let me know.

Anyways, why do you ask?

Originally Posted by Alric

Our government is rotten through and through. Elected politicians ignore the people and push through their own agendas.

The elected people have the good of the people in their best wishes. They simply believe their methods will work better than what the people want.

That's human nature. It isn't a corrupt government, it's humanity.

**Bonsay** · 08-08-2010 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Noogah

Don't be stupid. That makes no sense. If there is a good reason to believe something is a conspiracy, come up with a theory. Otherwise, don't. Following your logic, let's set out to prove that every person that dies of heart disease, is actually dying because the government intentionally poisoned them. After all, why not? Let's set out to prove that the Japanese actually bombed Hiroshima, and that the United States actually bombed Perl Harbor. After all, why not? Let's set out to prove that Obama is actually a space alien. After all, why not? Lives are at risk. People have been killed.

Don't be stupid? I'm sorry if I look stupid, it was not my intention. But this part does sort of remind me why I stopped debating you on anything. Hey maybe we should prove that evolution is a conspiracy or at least that the scientists are stupid and you're smart... right? Why not?

Maybe instead of proving that the Japanese bombed Hiroshima, why don't we prove that the Japanese were going to surrender. And that maybe the bombs didn't have to be dropped? But we don't want that to happen! No... all the Americans would be disharted to hear that mass murder might not have been necessary.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Investigate, yes. If the investigations show nothing, and there is nothing that doesn't ultimately add up, quit pursuing it. The deed is done, and, yes. People's feelings will be hurt. Now, I understand that this means nothing to you, but in reality, it does. And, in any case, the conspiracy theory ultimately holds no water anyways.

In one paragraph you piss on me, on the other you agree with me...no comment. I don't know what kind of world you want to live in, but I'd rather have a bunch of people with "hurt feelings" and saved lives than live your fantasy, where nothing is questioned because we might crush somebodies illusions.

Originally Posted by Noogah

It's not something I would "like not to believe". I simply don't believe it. Why? Not because I am in some shocking state of denial, but for the simple reason that the said suspicion is both baseless, and ludicrous... History itself will speak such. People are corrupt, but, if the theory makes no sense, then there is no reason to mark obviously innocent people.

And if you don't care at all, history will repeat itself. And I'm not arguing for 9 11 here. Just "conspiracies in general".

Originally Posted by Noogah

Prove it. You've provided nothing so far that even gave a shred of reason to believe that.

Search it yourself. But you won't. You'd rather declare victory. Anway... the two things I put forth were officially declassified.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Sometimes it's the people who's lives are ruined that you're hurting.

Asking why, for example, Vietnam was necessary or why the US - the best military and intelligence agencies - couldn't do anything on 9 11 probably wouldn't phase either the Vietnamese or 9 11 victims. I'm not advocating that we go and throw bricks at peoples houses because their friends died in the attacks or anything.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I don't explicitly trust the government. I don't explicitly doubt them either. If I worked like you, I would trust no one. Not my friends, relatives, siblings, or even parents. Not a shred.

I don't. They are all after me.

Originally Posted by Noogah

There needs to be a balance between trust and and suspicion. Your problem is you don't want to be led.

Those in power have the duty to "work for the people". As you implied before, this often isn't the case. All I have to do is turn on the TV to see how somebody is protesting because some bureaucracy screwed his life or how some corruption happened here or there. And don't tell me where I'd like to live, because I never said that.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Have you stopped to consider that maybe the reason the world seems so irrational to you is because you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist, and not the other way around?

No, not really. The world is pretty rational, actually. If you are some bad ass elite who gets to play chess with peoples lives. Have you stopped to consider the reality... Why do you think that there is an Al Quaeda? The CIA made them to stop the spread of socialism in Afghanistan. There is no conspiracy here, as I said, just normality, sadly. Do you think the world leaders just sit in a chair and things randomly happen around them? No there are agendas and things happen to fit.

Originally Posted by Noogah

"Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted[citation needed] and the proposals included in the plan were never executed."
This.

Yes sure, "this"...What was executed though, were a bunch of people around the world who didn't fit in the world plan USA had. And that's what I'm talking about. It does fit the official definition of the word conspiracy in the end. At least they never got Castro.

**Alric** · 08-08-2010 01:08 AM

When you decide you know what is best for everyone, and then force it upon them against their will. Then you are not only corrupt your evil. I don't want to hear any of that bullshit, that they are just doing what they think is best. What gives them the right to choose for everyone else? They were elected to run the government, not to run peoples lives, and its far to often they over step their position.

**Spartiate** · 08-08-2010 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I don't. They are all after me.

Are you serious?

**Caprisun** · 08-08-2010 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by Alric

What gives them the right to choose for everyone else?

Their position as a government official who is responsible for making those decisions.

**Alric** · 08-08-2010 01:50 AM

They don't get to decide what they want or don't want to do. They are supposed to do what we set out for them. So no they don't get to make any decisions they want.

**Spartiate** · 08-08-2010 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Alric

They don't get to decide what they want or don't want to do. They are supposed to do what we set out for them. So no they don't get to make any decisions they want.

You vote for them because you like their ideas, not because they do what you want. How are they supposed to know what you want?

**Noogah** · 08-08-2010 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Maybe instead of proving that the Japanese bombed Hiroshima, why don't we prove that the Japanese were going to surrender. And that maybe the bombs didn't have to be dropped? But we don't want that to happen! No... all the Americans would be disharted to hear that mass murder might not have been necessary.

Because they weren't. They still didn't surrender, even after the bomb dropped. Read your history.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I'm sorry if I look stupid, it was not my intention. But this part does sort of remind me why I stopped debating you on anything. Hey maybe we should prove that evolution is a conspiracy or at least that the scientists are stupid and you're smart... right? Why not?

Because they're not. They're beliefs are still very flawed, though.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

In one paragraph you argue me, on the other you agree with me...no comment.

Congratulations on a self contradicting statement.

Anyways, I mean a standard investigation to figure out what happened. Not the paranoid investigations that follow.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

but I'd rather have a bunch of people with "hurt feelings" and saved lives than live your fantasy

You think proving 9/11 was a conspiracy would save lives? Well, it wouldn't. It would probably kill more than save more.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

And if you don't care at all, history will repeat itself. And I'm not arguing for 9 11 here. Just "conspiracies in general".

Completely agree with you. Conspiracies happen.

Doesn't mean 9/11 was a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Search it yourself. But you won't. You'd rather declare victory. Anway... the two things I put forth were officially declassified.

Are you kidding me? I've read plenty of the theories. I even considered them at one point. But, then, I read why they were bogus. Unlike you, I accepted them as valid and solid debunkings.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Asking why, for example, Vietnam was necessary or why the US - the best military and intelligence agencies - couldn't do anything on 9 11 probably wouldn't phase either the Vietnamese or 9 11 victims. I'm not advocating that we go and throw bricks at peoples houses because their friends died in the attacks or anything.

Still, it would happen in some cases.

And anyways, Vietnam was a bad move. People make mistakes. Big mistakes. Not synonymous with a conspiracy.

Things seem different without the gift of hindsight, especially when you have a whole country full of people.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I don't. They are all after me.

I hope you're joking.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Those in power have the duty to "work for the people". As you implied before, this often isn't the case. All I have to do is turn on the TV to see how somebody is protesting because some bureaucracy screwed his life or how some corruption happened here or there. And don't tell me where I'd like to live, because I never said that.

Mankind is imperfect. No one will ever be completely happy with the government. The government can only satisfy the majority, not the totality.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

No, not really.

Then do it.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Do you think the world leaders just sit in a chair and things randomly happen around them?

Yes.

Kind of how things randomly happen around you, and you are not the cause of them.

'scalled life. You'd be surprised at things it'l throw atcha.

Now. Tell me why you believe the U.S.A created Al Quaeda. Then, give me evidence to convince me.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Yes sure, "this"...What was executed though, were a bunch of people around the world who didn't fit in the world plan USA had. And that's what I'm talking about. It does fit the official definition of the word conspiracy in the end.

Okay then. If I knew more about the matter, I would probably argue with you, but since I don't, I'll pull back and sit in neutral on this matter.

Originally Posted by Alric

What gives them the right to choose for everyone else?

We, the people.

Ever study democracy?

**Alric** · 08-08-2010 04:01 AM

We don't have a democracy. We have a constitutional republic. Meaning, it doesn't matter what you want, there are some things you can never have. For example, a politician might feel the world would be safer without guns. However, no matter how good an idea he thinks banning guns is, he isn't allowed to do it. The problem is they are constantly overstepping their bounds, and doing stuff they shouldn't be doing.

**Bonsay** · 08-08-2010 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Noogah

Because they weren't. They still didn't surrender, even after the bomb dropped. Read your history.

Thank you for your respect, once again. I'm sure your knowledge is infinite and that Japan would have taken over the world if the bombs weren't dropped. Your black and white view of history is one of the best a man can take and is something to be proud of. Now that I have read my history, I can see how dropping nuclear weapons was the best thing to do.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Because they're not. They're beliefs are still very flawed, though.

Only a conspiracy can make 99% of the scientific community flawed. Should I make a list of people who are flawed just like you did on the first page for shock value?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Congratulations on a self contradicting statement.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Are you kidding me? I've read plenty of the theories. I even considered them at one point. But, then, I read why they were bogus. Unlike you, I accepted them as valid and solid debunkings.

This proves that you've either been indoctrinated in apologetics or you managed to do it yourself. I hope you break out because it's not nice to misinterpret then scoff at your fellow human being. Those two things were declassified.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Then do it.

After you.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Kind of how things randomly happen around you, and you are not the cause of them.

I call that bad governence, whatever the case. Things actually happen because people make choices, especially those in power. What would happen if operation Valkyrie suceeded for example. Are examples even necessary?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Now. Tell me why you believe the U.S.A created Al Quaeda. Then, give me evidence to convince me.

Operation Cyclone definitely helped them take hold and spread. Who knows what else, if the whole thing as an organisation exists at all. This goes back to the topic at hand. It's a conspiracy in itself. If you lived back then, would you support your country in funding mujahedeen? There are a bunch of sides and you don't know who's telling or knows the truth.

**Noogah** · 08-08-2010 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I can see how dropping nuclear weapons was the best thing to do.

The bomb may not have been the best option. Mankind is human. They can only deal with what they can see. That is why our forefathers looked to God for help.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Only a conspiracy can make 99% of the scientific community flawed.

People used to believe the world was flat. Was there a conspiracy?

No....just flawed beliefs.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

This proves that you've either been indoctrinated in apologetics or you managed to do it yourself.

It proves that I heed logic.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

After you.

But, I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theorist. You are. Did you even read what I was referring to when I said "do it"?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I call that bad governence, whatever the case.

No. bad things happen around you whether you like it or not. Your friend may suffer a heart attack. America may suffer a terrorist attack.

It's not your/the governments fault.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Operation Cyclone definitely helped them take hold and spread.

The question remains: Was it intentional?

I'm done here.

Believe what you want. It's useless debating you.

**Bonsay** · 08-08-2010 10:00 PM

You can't win them all! I just hope the majority who endured the horrors of reading this exchange sides with me on this one - not on the validity of my arguments or the beliefs on conspiracies... just generally in the aspect of argumentation.

I have never seen anyone ever, on this forum or anywhere else, to manage to twist a forum post and its message so wildly, declare victory and call it quits. You've done it before in R/S and in every other thread in which a serious debate is held. The sad part is that you don't even know it, so I can't and don't want to blame you for being this way directly... Insha'Allah sadly. You just can't shake off the christian apologetics spirit and I sincerely hope you do. The last thing we need is another idiot in this world. Not one response from you made sense, on the level of validity, logic or fair play. You're short of calling me mentally retarded for the simple reason that you're too egoistic to even try and comprehend a post. All you want to do is start a fight and then run off. I'm not the best writer, and I'm always ready to work harder and get a message across if I have to... but in the case of talking to Noogah, it truly is like talking to a wall. A stupid wall that talks back.

You have to try really hard to piss me off. But congrats Noogah, you really piss me off. I don't know why I should ever bother to read and comprehend other peoples posts and ideas. I can be like Noogah, shit on someone, call him an idiot and run off. And I bet that he's even proud off this.

**ArcanumNoctis** · 08-08-2010 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I'm not the best writer, and I'm always ready to work harder and get a message across if I have to... but in the case of talking to Noogah, it truly is like talking to a wall. A stupid wall that talks back.

**Caprisun** · 08-09-2010 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I just hope the majority who endured the horrors of reading this exchange sides with me on this one - not on the validity of my arguments or the beliefs on conspiracies... just generally in the aspect of argumentation.

Yes, you at least have me there.