Thread: Gays in the military

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Hmmm.....that's a pretty elementary debating tactic, demanding that I provide proof of an EVERY. I never said anything about EVERY.

Here is what you said: "The main thing about gays in the military is the fact that it's pretty damn uncomfortable to be showering and bunking with a dude who wants to do you in the ass, if even in his own thoughts. It's a distraction."

While its true you did not say "every," you implied that any given gay man wants to do another soldier in the ass.

If even ONE soldier feels intimidated or uncomfortable in the bunkhouse or in the shower, that's all the proof I need.

So the probable irrational paranoia of one soldier is proof to you? You could advocate gender-segregation in the workplace with that logic. "Women are fearful that men will rape them as they are doing their jobs!"

What....are you demanding to see the swolen rectum photos?

Do you possess pictures of swollen rectums from soldiers in the military?

The only thing I'm stating is that for the same reason you can't have men and women sharing the showers, you can't have gay and straight men sharing the showers.

Let's take it a step further. Let's pretend that at your school....YOU were allowed to shower with the girls....just so long as you don't touch them or make any sexual suggestive statements. You're basically allowed to shower with them, and observe them. Do you think the girls would have no issues with that...just so long as they were not being raped in the showers? Or...do you think it would just make them uncomfortable and feel violated?

These are not valid concerns. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" does not change one's sexual orientation. It hides it from others. The policy does nothing to alleviate the irrational paranoia of one bigoted soldier who is afraid some buff homosexual is gonna bend him over and do work on his behind.

The difference between school children and soldier-aged people is quite different. While school children are just discovering what an erection is when they shower with members of the opposite sex in your hypothetical situation, soldier-aged people 1) have an incentive to not do anything to another soldier that would violate his rights (such as mercilessly butt-fucking him, as you would probably hypothesize), and 2) have much more control over themselves than mere school children.

You have tolerance issues....

I have tolerance issues, yet here you are irrationally assuming gays always want to have sex with every man they see. Do all straight men want to have sex with every woman they see?

not about gay men, but about straight men, and their RIGHT to exist in a non intimidating environment in the armed forces.

So you're nothing but a heterosexual chauvinist. I see.

That is what makes "don't ask, don't tell" work. We all know that once you know someone is gay, you think differently about them. This is just human nature....so having OPENLY gay men in the bunkhouse would be a distraction...and I don't need to prove anything to you about all gays. Nice try.

Well, not all of us "know" what once you know someone is gay, you think differently of them. That may be true in your case, but not for all of us, and certainly not for me. You may call it human nature if you wish, but it does not make it true.

Of all the people I've told that I'm bisexual, only one started acting differently around me. I'm not sure where you're coming from with all this information, Toriatte, but you come off as pretty insecure. Just saying.

If a guy has a problem showering with a gay man, that's his damned problem.

You just made my point for me......he does have a problem that he should not have to have. This is about tolerance, and the lack of sensitivity by the Gay community. They do not respect the "non gay" feelings...do they?

It must suck to have that "tolerance and sensitivity" crap thrown in your face...doesn't it?
Welcome to my world.

Liberals and Progressives have used that tool for a long time....If you don't agree with them...you're an intolerant racist homophobe with tolerance issues.
I'm just having fun with the debate. Personally I don't give a flying rat's ass if they're boffing each other in the showers. They're the ones who will have to wear Depends by the time they're 40

Originally Posted by Torriatte

They're the ones who will have to wear a diaper by the time they're 40

This is a myth and if you actually believe that, then that pretty much invalidates everything you've said in this debate, because you're a gullible bigoted idiot.

Oh...so if I disagree with you....I get called names. Hmmm....Idiot, bigot...you forgot asshole, racist, moron, jerk, pussy, loser.

Your logic is quite flawed. You made the IF / THEN statement and did not back it up with anything but your OWN personal bias and hatred for those who don't embrace YOUR diversity! What happened to you embracing MY diversity? Or...is that just for the bigots to have to endure?

If you are really enlightened and open minded, you would gladly allow me my opinions without calling me names, and trying to marginalize me.
Therefore you must be gay, since you so actively defend the opposite position. Therefore nothing I can say or do will ever change your mind about what you are "entitled" to.....can it?

You were doing ok in the debate until you started calling me names. When you do that, you instantly lose. This is not your high school. You can't win here by calling people names. It only makes you look like a child.....and an intolerant child at that. You wanna start over??

Don't gays shower with other men in schools, sports teams, gyms, prison, public pools, etc. Doesn't seem to have been a big issue so far.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Oh...so if I disagree with you....I get called names. Hmmm....Idiot, bigot...you forgot asshole, racist, moron, jerk, pussy, loser.

Your logic is quite flawed. You made the IF / THEN statement and did not back it up with anything but your OWN personal bias and hatred for those who don't embrace YOUR diversity! What happened to you embracing MY diversity? Or...is that just for the bigots to have to endure?

If you are really enlightened and open minded, you would gladly allow me my opinions without calling me names, and trying to marginalize me.
Therefore you must be gay, since you so actively defend the opposite position. Therefore nothing I can say or do will ever change your mind about what you are "entitled" to.....can it?

You were doing ok in the debate until you started calling me names. When you do that, you instantly lose. This is not your high school. You can't win here by calling people names. It only makes you look like a child.....and an intolerant child at that. You wanna start over??

I haven't seen an actual argument from you, apart from your own opinion on showering with other men who may or may not be gay. Your logic is flawed, because you're assuming that if a guy is out of the closet, then he will rape you in the showers and if he's not out of the closet, he will hold back. If this is not what you believe, then what is your problem?

I made the remarks about you in my previous post, because you repeated one of the most ridiculous myths about gay people.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

I never said anything about EVERY. If even ONE soldier feels intimidated or uncomfortable in the bunkhouse or in the shower, that's all the proof I need.

Let's take it a step further. Let's pretend that at your school....YOU were allowed to shower with the girls....just so long as you don't touch them or make any sexual suggestive statements. You're basically allowed to shower with them, and observe them. Do you think the girls would have no issues with that...just so long as they were not being raped in the showers? Or...do you think it would just make them uncomfortable and feel violated?

You have tolerance issues....not about gay men, but about straight men, and their RIGHT to exist in a non intimidating environment in the armed forces.
That is what makes "don't ask, don't tell" work. We all know that once you know someone is gay, you think differently about them. This is just human nature....so having OPENLY gay men in the bunkhouse would be a distraction...and I don't need to prove anything to you about all gays. Nice try.

You just need to grow up. Any mature man who isn't completely insecure will be fine living with gay men (and your analogy about men showering with women is completely invalid.) You assume that every gay man is a horny bastard who wants to fuck every man he sees, or at least you assume that other men in the military feel that way. That is obviously a very ignorant view. So now you are saying that homosexual men need to suffer because of someone elses ignorance? You don't see how assbackwards your philosophy on this is? Who says gay men are any less professional than straight men? Do gay men lack self-control? I think it's pretty clear that this problem doesn't actually exist, it's entirely in your head and the heads of the men you are apparently speaking for. So the only answer would be to educate any men who feel this way. Any fear you have of getting raped in the night or sexually harassed is very irrational, and if you call yourself a man, you should be able to stand up for yourself. And unless you're at boot camp or something, you won't shower together and you sleep in your own rack or your own house. Showers are no more than three minutes at boot camp and you have drill instructors yelling at you the entire time, so I don't think there will be any time for the gay men to be checking everyone out.

Let's assume for a moment that every gay man isn't a flaming, efeminent, fruit cake who parades around flaunting his homosexuality wearing womens clothing and talking with a lisp. Let's assume that some of them are strong, competent soldiers who are of great value to the military. Should we accomodate the overgrown adolescent mother fuckers who are ignorant enough to believe that a man's sexual orientation has any effect on his abilities as a soldier? If a gay man proves his mettle on the battlefield, I know for a fact he will win the respect of his comrades. So my question to you is, should we really be reinforcing this kind of ignorant thinking? Is denying gay men certain rights not reinforcing the idea that it's ok to discriminate against homosexuals? Do you really think the comfort of a few bigoted individuals is a valid excuse to discriminate? I say big fucking deal if they feel uncomfortable, Im sure gay men already feel uncomfortable. If it really bothers them that much, they can quit, and then I'll say good fucking riddance! We don't want those kind of people in the military.

You obviously can't read. I never said anything about being raped. If you had bothered to READ what I said....I used the analogy of a guy in High School being allowed to shower with the girls IF he promised not to touch them. I asked if you thought the girls would be just fine with that....or if they would feel violated. I got NO answer from you. Your point (as usual) is about calling people names when they are not embracing your diversity. Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it.

But let's answer YOUR question...shall we? Well actually it's your statement that I am assuming that people have issues with gays because they fear being RAPED by them. Trust me pal....that's not the issue here, much as you want it to be. It's a matter of safety and security. Use my example of the guy in the girls shower. It's not about him RAPING them....no.....just him being in there with them would make them VERY uncomfortable, even if he was tied to a chair and couldn't move. Just being vulnerable and knowing that someone "could be" fantasizing about you, when you're standing naked in front of them...is enough to make this not about fear of rape, but about TOLERANCE, and SENSITIVITY. Perhaps when the tolerance thing is working against what YOU want it's not quite so important is it?

You should maybe think about how the OTHER people feel....who would be forced to shower in the presence of an openly gay man.
You can deny it all you want...but I believe that MOST men (straight) would be quite uncomfortable getting undressed and showering with an openly gay man next to him. It's not about getting your ass raped.....it's about sensitivity to other people and THEIR rights to feel secure and comfortable in their own shower space.

The whole shower thing is just one example....the barracks is another.
We're not talking about whether we can be friends with these guys, or whether they would watch your back in a firefight.....this is about....tolerance for straight people's feelings. That should matter just as much as tolerance for Gay people's feelings....right???

We should be able to agree on that one anyway.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You should maybe think about how the OTHER people feel....who would be forced to shower in the presence of an openly gay man.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Don't gays shower with other men in schools, sports teams, gyms, prison, public pools, etc. Doesn't seem to have been a big issue so far.

...

Well Caprisun, you pretty much just made my point for me. You're putting words in my mouth.....and then judging me based on YOUR words not mine. I am talking about a real basic thing here, and you're talking about "ALL GAY'S BEING HORNY". Sorry....that's not what I said. Who said anything about their professionalism either? Um...that was YOU...not me. You're making ALL KINDS of assumptions about me without knowing me. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a BIGOT?

Sorry....but you obviously put some thought into your post, and I respect that. But you need to stop and read what I said before you REACT to it, rather than assuming things about me personally.

I will, however lower myself to answer one thing you said...and that's about fear of being raped by a gay guy.
I can honestly tell you that I fear no man raping me. I'm a pretty intimidating sized person and that's about the last thing I'm worried about unless I'm in a jail cell with some man named Bubba. So please do not try to frame this debate about fear of rape. Nobody here EVER mentioned that...did they??

Also, lastly....You are pretty inconsistent. First you say that any man who is not fine with living with GAY MEN is completely insecure.
Isn't that pretty much a bigoted statement too? You're assuming that ALL GAY MEN are the same ...and that ALL GAY MEN are perfectly safe.

Sir, you can't make such assumptions about large groups of people.
That's like saying "All cops beat up miniroties!" ... or ....."All Tea Party people are racist haters!"
You can't do that ...anymore than I can make a blanket statement about their behavior being bad.

Am I being a jerk?
No...I'm just perhaps trying to make you realize that when you're debating on the internet with people you can't see....or know....you should not make assumptions about them. Text can be deceiving. It can look like I'm all serious and angry...when in fact I'm smiling and laughing. Can you tell right now if I'm mad or not? Nope.....but I'm not. I appreciate your point of view, but I don't call you names for it. I can disagree with you 100% and not call you stupid, or immature, or insecure...because I don't KNOW YOU.

Stick with the facts...and stick to what I say, before you condemn me with personal attacks and assumptions.
For the record my stepson is gay....and I don't have tolerance issues. This is a PHILOSOPHICAL debate....and it's not about rape. It's about respecting the rights and feelings of those who are NOT gay...and trying to force them/us into a situation where we feel uncomfortable if not offended by a behavior being thrust in our faces. It's like.....embrace US....or you're INTOLERANT and an HOMOPHOBE. Sorry....I am neither....but still I won't take off my tighty whities in front of them.

Spartiate - Perhaps it's not been an issue so far because they are not openly gay. My guess is that if you have an openly gay kid in your school....there is some tension happening in the locker room, even if it's not talked about. Isn't THAT the definition of TOLERANCE??

I think it is. Seems to me like it's not an issue...but in PRISONS it most certainly is.
What do you think is the biggest fear people have about going to jail? It's most certainly NOT the idea of being locked up...now is it???

I'll tell you what....you are free to shower next to the gay guy if you wish. I would feel pretty uncomfortable doing that.
I grew up in a different era though. When I was in High School no kid would DARE be openly gay. He would quite literally get the crap beat out of him. Times have changed. People are more tolerant now. Nothing wrong with that....but the tolerance thing must go both ways. Yes?

I'm done on this topic......I guess its too volatile for some of you.
Perhaps that's why it's not something you can legislate.....and force people to adhere to.
People have the right to be bigots or not....and to fear anyone they wish. You can't legislate that away I guess.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You obviously can't read. I never said anything about being raped. If you had bothered to READ what I said....I used the analogy of a guy in High School being allowed to shower with the girls IF he promised not to touch them. I asked if you thought the girls would be just fine with that....or if they would feel violated. I got NO answer from you. Your point (as usual) is about calling people names when they are not embracing your diversity. Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it.

High school students are immature, obviously they couldn't handle such a situation. That is still an invalid anology since there are obvious physical differences between men and women. Of course a woman will feel uncomfortable with a strange naked man who is bigger and stronger than her and could force himself upon her if he wanted to. How can you not see the difference? Gay men don't walk around with a stamp on their forehead that says they're gay.

"Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it."

I also thought this quote was funny since it completely contradicts itself. If you don't embrace it, you aren't tolerant of it. You can't tolerate gay rights and fight to revoke those rights at the same time. By definition you are intolerant.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

But let's answer YOUR question...shall we? Well actually it's your statement that I am assuming that people have issues with gays because they fear being RAPED by them. Trust me pal....that's not the issue here, much as you want it to be. It's a matter of safety and security. Use my example of the guy in the girls shower. It's not about him RAPING them....no.....just him being in there with them would make them VERY uncomfortable, even if he was tied to a chair and couldn't move. Just being vulnerable and knowing that someone "could be" fantasizing about you, when you're standing naked in front of them...is enough to make this not about fear of rape, but about TOLERANCE, and SENSITIVITY. Perhaps when the tolerance thing is working against what YOU want it's not quite so important is it?

How is that dangerous? I kept waiting for the puch line, but it never came. It's not a fear of being raped or sexually abused, it's the fear of being fantasized about? That makes it even more ridiculous and more childish. Lets be reasonable here. Discomfort with being objectified or fantasized about is a markedly female trait. Most men don't give a shit about that. Who cares what goes on in another persons head as long as they don't act on it? That is an irrational fear with no basis in reality.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You should maybe think about how the OTHER people feel....who would be forced to shower in the presence of an openly gay man.
You can deny it all you want...but I believe that MOST men (straight) would be quite uncomfortable getting undressed and showering with an openly gay man next to him. It's not about getting your ass raped.....it's about sensitivity to other people and THEIR rights to feel secure and comfortable in their own shower space.

Are you in the military or are you a civilian who feels he has the right to misrepresent the feelings of myself and the rest of the men in the military? I am thinking about OTHER people here. I am not gay, yet I am empathizing with gay men and standing up for what is the ethically right thing to do. You keep saying that men would be uncomfortable getting undressed in front of gay men, I keep saying that it doesn't matter because they are wrong to feel that way in the first place. (And I wholeheartedly disagree that most men would feel uncomfortable with such a situation. I have spent a considerable amount of time living with a lage number of men in a barracks, and I am comfortable saying that at least 80% of them were mature enough to handle the presence of a gay man in the barracks.)

Lets simplify this:

Homophobia= irrational, immature, and ignorant. Yes? No?

Feeling uncomfortable showering with gay men= Immature, irrational, and ignorant. Yes? No?

There really is no debating that the answer to both questions is yes. You are therefore reinforcing a philosophy of immaturity, irrationality, and ignorance in MY military. It isn't the gay men who need to accomodate the ignorant bastards, it's the ignorant bastards who need to rid themselves of ignorance, and then the integration of gay men won't be accomodating, it will be natural.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

The whole shower thing is just one example....the barracks is another.
We're not talking about whether we can be friends with these guys, or whether they would watch your back in a firefight.....this is about....tolerance for straight people's feelings. That should matter just as much as tolerance for Gay people's feelings....right???

So you are preaching the tolerance of straight man's feelings by not tolerating gay man's feelings? What you are really doing, whether you realize it or not, is preaching the tolerance of ignorance, as I have said many times now.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You obviously can't read. I never said anything about being raped. If you had bothered to READ what I said....I used the analogy of a guy in High School being allowed to shower with the girls IF he promised not to touch them. I asked if you thought the girls would be just fine with that....or if they would feel violated. I got NO answer from you. Your point (as usual) is about calling people names when they are not embracing your diversity. Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it.

But let's answer YOUR question...shall we? Well actually it's your statement that I am assuming that people have issues with gays because they fear being RAPED by them. Trust me pal....that's not the issue here, much as you want it to be. It's a matter of safety and security. Use my example of the guy in the girls shower. It's not about him RAPING them....no.....just him being in there with them would make them VERY uncomfortable, even if he was tied to a chair and couldn't move. Just being vulnerable and knowing that someone "could be" fantasizing about you, when you're standing naked in front of them...is enough to make this not about fear of rape, but about TOLERANCE, and SENSITIVITY. Perhaps when the tolerance thing is working against what YOU want it's not quite so important is it?

You should maybe think about how the OTHER people feel....who would be forced to shower in the presence of an openly gay man.
You can deny it all you want...but I believe that MOST men (straight) would be quite uncomfortable getting undressed and showering with an openly gay man next to him. It's not about getting your ass raped.....it's about sensitivity to other people and THEIR rights to feel secure and comfortable in their own shower space.

The whole shower thing is just one example....the barracks is another.
We're not talking about whether we can be friends with these guys, or whether they would watch your back in a firefight.....this is about....tolerance for straight people's feelings. That should matter just as much as tolerance for Gay people's feelings....right???

We should be able to agree on that one anyway.

How would you feel about showering in the presence of a woman?

Nope...don't want that either. Ok...sure.....if I wasn't married, ... my answer would be something like......"if she's a hottie...why not?"

Is she showering and minding her own business....or is she watching me...and touching herself?
Tell me she's a blonde......and likes immature men!!
Oh wait.....can she be wearing heels???

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Nope...don't want that either. Ok...sure.....if I wasn't married, ... my answer would be something like......"if she's a hottie...why not?"

Is she showering and minding her own business....or is she watching me...and touching herself?
Tell me she's a blonde......and likes immature men!!
Oh wait.....can she be wearing heels???

She's just showering, minding her own business. Totally average girl.

Anyway, just a little fun thought exercise for you.

To return to the debate of irrational fear of homosexuals, let me present to you another scenario. Imagine you're showering at the swimming pool. A guy, who you somehow know is gay, walks in and starts showering. He's just minding his own business, getting done fairly quickly and moving on.

How does this make you feel? Does it make you feel different than the previous scenario (woman)?

Oh, well if she was a totally "average" girl.....watching me shower...she'd definitely be touching herself. Still I'd rather she was not there, because it would make me uncomfortable and self conscious. Having a large penis doesn't automatically mean that you're a free spirit I guess.

You used my quote saying: "Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it."

(you said) I also thought this quote was funny since it completely contradicts itself. If you don't embrace it, you aren't tolerant of it. You can't tolerate gay rights and fight to revoke those rights at the same time. By definition you are intolerant.

My response: Um, I'm not in a position to deny ANYONE ANYTHING, especially rights. Rights are not given out by me....are they. Again, telling me what I can and can't be thinking? I thought I taught you better than that.
Of COURSE I can be tolerant and still not embrace it!

Tolerance is....... Not calling them names, not making faces when you see them together, going out of your way to NOT insult them, treating them just like you would anyone else, trying to allow civil unions to make them feel more normalized with rights.

Embracing is totally different. I will never EMBRACE the idea of two dudes having sex. No matter what you or anyone else ever says...I find that idea disturbing and just plain WRONG. I can't embrace what I find morally and physically disgusting. Rights are one thing. Everyone should have the same rights but not SPECIAL rights just because you're gay. How would you dole out those "special rights" for gays? Would you inspect their butts...to make sure there's some stretch marks? OK PAL...you pass the test!! You can have a civil union and all the rights that go with it! NEXT!!"

I believe that good examples of INTOLERANCE is when gay people push their lifestyle in my face and demand that I "embrace it".
Or, maybe when the lesbians stormed the church and called the worshipers "homophobes" just because they were worshiping God in their own church.

Perhaps I should just spell this out for you........ Tolerance must go both ways. It's not just about tolerating Gays...it's about Gays tolerating people who might find their behavior objectionable. Perhaps that is something THEY should embrace.....the notion that not everyone LIKES to be looking at that shit....or even being exposed to it, or having your kids exposed to it in 1'st grade.

Tolerance is a dual edged sword.
You can't get all mad at people for having their own values and beliefs.....that don't coincide with yours.
THAT is intolerant too.

If you noticed, I never called any of you names for your opinions, but invariably you people call me names when I express a totally honest opinion about openly gay men being in the shower with other military personnel. I'm guessing that very few if any of you have ever set foot in a barracks....so.....how can you even have an opinion?? Still...you're entitled to yours, and I appreciate ALL of your opinion. I simply don't believe it's right to call people names about them. I wish you all a good day, and thanks for the thought provoking discussion!!

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Spartiate - Perhaps it's not been an issue so far because they are not openly gay. My guess is that if you have an openly gay kid in your school....there is some tension happening in the locker room, even if it's not talked about. Isn't THAT the definition of TOLERANCE??

And what would make military servicemen anymore openly gay than the average person you meet in the locker room? It's not like they have to write "HOMO" on their foreheads... If anything, most straight people here would just joke about it. Maybe some that were uncomfortable with their sexuality would feel a little uneasy, but some people feel uneasy being around naked straight men altogether.

I think it is. Seems to me like it's not an issue...but in PRISONS it most certainly is.
What do you think is the biggest fear people have about going to jail? It's most certainly NOT the idea of being locked up...now is it???

Do you really think that the majority of rapists in prison are gay?

I'll tell you what....you are free to shower next to the gay guy if you wish. I would feel pretty uncomfortable doing that.
I grew up in a different era though. When I was in High School no kid would DARE be openly gay. He would quite literally get the crap beat out of him. Times have changed. People are more tolerant now. Nothing wrong with that....but the tolerance thing must go both ways. Yes?

What seems more unfair, making a straight guy uncomfortable in the shower because he was raised in an era where gays were treated as subhuman carriers of the plague, or having a gay guy lose his job with a dishonourable discharge because he mentioned his sexual preference which he has no control over (and is otherwise a great soldier)?

I'm done on this topic......I guess its too volatile for some of you.
Perhaps that's why it's not something you can legislate.....and force people to adhere to.
People have the right to be bigots or not....and to fear anyone they wish. You can't legislate that away I guess.

You have the right to be a bigot, but it shouldn't impede the rights of gays to be treated as normal people. It's not tolerance to allow gays in the military, it's equality.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You used my quote saying: "Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it."

(you said) I also thought this quote was funny since it completely contradicts itself. If you don't embrace it, you aren't tolerant of it. You can't tolerate gay rights and fight to revoke those rights at the same time. By definition you are intolerant.

My response: Um, I'm not in a position to deny ANYONE ANYTHING, especially rights. Rights are not given out by me....are they. Again, telling me what I can and can't be thinking? I thought I taught you better than that.
Of COURSE I can be tolerant and still not embrace it!

What on Earth are you talking about? Are you not fighting against gay rights in this moment? It doesn't matter that you don't insult them. Acting to repress their rights, whether you have the power to do so or not, is intolerant.

(Did you really just write this entire post about that single quote? Why do you keep ignoring my points?)

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Tolerance is....... Not calling them names, not making faces when you see them together, going out of your way to NOT insult them, treating them just like you would anyone else, trying to allow civil unions to make them feel more normalized with rights.

Embracing is totally different. I will never EMBRACE the idea of two dudes having sex. No matter what you or anyone else ever says...I find that idea disturbing and just plain WRONG. I can't embrace what I find morally and physically disgusting. Rights are one thing. Everyone should have the same rights but not SPECIAL rights just because you're gay. How would you dole out those "special rights" for gays? Would you inspect their butts...to make sure there's some stretch marks? OK PAL...you pass the test!! You can have a civil union and all the rights that go with it! NEXT!!"

This is such a convaluted take on the concept of tolerance. You find the homosexual lifestyle "disturbing" and "morally and physically disgusting," yet according to you, tolerance is the mere act of refraining from name calling and face making and "trying to make them feel normalized" (as if they aren't normal people?) Do you automatically feel the impulse to do such things? If I were a homosexual, I would be extremely offended by what you just said. So much for respecting their feelings, huh?

Sure, not calling names and not making faces are a part of tolerance, but that is far from the complete picture and the part you are missing is the most important part. Tolerance is allowing someone who is different than you to live their life as they want, free from ridicule, while affording them the same rights as you afford yourself. As you can see, this is where your idea of tolerance fails to meet the standard. If you don't think homosexuals should have the same rights as you, by what stretch of the imaginiation are you fully tolerating their existence?

I believe that good examples of INTOLERANCE is when gay people push their lifestyle in my face and demand that I "embrace it".
Or, maybe when the lesbians stormed the church and called the worshipers "homophobes" just because they were worshiping God in their own church.

Perhaps I should just spell this out for you........ Tolerance must go both ways. It's not just about tolerating Gays...it's about Gays tolerating people who might find their behavior objectionable. Perhaps that is something THEY should embrace.....the notion that not everyone LIKES to be looking at that shit....or even being exposed to it, or having your kids exposed to it in 1'st grade.

Tolerance is a dual edged sword.
You can't get all mad at people for having their own values and beliefs.....that don't coincide with yours.
THAT is intolerant too.

So it is intolerant to oppose a group who actively fights to limit your rights? Homosexuality poses no threat to your way of life, yet you want to limit their rights. Your way of life though, poses a significant threat to homosexual life. Is it not ethical to fight for human rights? Homosexuals aren't protesting the fact that people find their lifestyle disgusting. Do you really think that? Honestly? They are protesting because people like you don't think they should be allowed to get married and don't think they should have the right to be open about their sexuality in the military. You are denying them basic human rights. That's why they protest you.

If you noticed, I never called any of you names for your opinions, but invariably you people call me names when I express a totally honest opinion about openly gay men being in the shower with other military personnel. I'm guessing that very few if any of you have ever set foot in a barracks....so.....how can you even have an opinion?? Still...you're entitled to yours, and I appreciate ALL of your opinion. I simply don't believe it's right to call people names about them. I wish you all a good day, and thanks for the thought provoking discussion!!

I thought I told you I lived in a barracks. (See the picture below? I've been there.) Are you reading anything I write? What difference does that make anyway? You have to have lived in a barracks or you can't have an opinion? When did you live in a barracks? Was it for more than a few weeks at boot camp? I don't know about you, but we didn't talk about sexuality at boot camp.

I called your opinion ignorant, immature, and irrational because that is exactly what it is, and it deserves to be called what it is. You think I have no right to judge you because I don't know you, but you have given me sufficient information in the posts you've written to form those opinions. They are in regards to the words you've written, not your whole personality.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You just made my point for me......he does have a problem that he should not have to have.

Whether he should have it or not is no one's problem but his.

It must suck to have that "tolerance and sensitivity" crap thrown in your face...doesn't it? Welcome to my world.

Well, if you are tolerant and sensitive toward others, you don't tend to have that problem. Sounds like a personal problem.

Liberals and Progressives have used that tool for a long time....If you don't agree with them...you're an intolerant racist homophobe with tolerance issues.

I am neither liberal (by modern standards), nor progressive. But you are being an intolerant homophobe.

I'm just having fun with the debate. Personally I don't give a flying rat's ass if they're boffing each other in the showers. They're the ones who will have to wear Depends by the time they're 40

When all else fails, claim you're just having fun, say you don't care, then make an egregious and erroneous claim.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Oh...so if I disagree with you....I get called names. Hmmm....Idiot, bigot...you forgot asshole, racist, moron, jerk, pussy, loser.

The truth does not travel in favorable ways sometimes.

Your logic is quite flawed.

Irony...I smell it too.

You made the IF / THEN statement and did not back it up with anything but your OWN personal bias and hatred for those who don't embrace YOUR diversity! What happened to you embracing MY diversity? Or...is that just for the bigots to have to endure?

You threw out a blatantly false claim as an insult as if it were truth.

If you are really enlightened and open minded, you would gladly allow me my opinions

We are allowing you your opinions...

without calling me names, and trying to marginalize me.

...but this statement does not follow the one above. We may allow you your opinions, but no one said we had to be nice about it.

Therefore you must be gay, since you so actively defend the opposite position. Therefore nothing I can say or do will ever change your mind about what you are "entitled" to.....can it?

What a rather strange assumption. We cannot defend homosexuality without actually being homosexual?

Since you are so adamant in your hatred of homosexuals, let me take a large stretch and assume that you are a closeted homosexual, wrapped up in a whirling hatred for the truth.

You were doing ok in the debate until you started calling me names. When you do that, you instantly lose. This is not your high school. You can't win here by calling people names. It only makes you look like a child.....and an intolerant child at that. You wanna start over??

You began posting with insulting claims right off the bat. As far as I'm concerned, this never was a debate.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

You obviously can't read. I never said anything about being raped.

What else would your paranoia-stricken man be afraid of?

If you had bothered to READ what I said....I used the analogy of a guy in High School being allowed to shower with the girls IF he promised not to touch them. I asked if you thought the girls would be just fine with that....or if they would feel violated. I got NO answer from you. Your point (as usual) is about calling people names when they are not embracing your diversity. Sorry....I can be tolerant without embracing it.

Well, if you had bothered to READ what I said, you would have noticed that I explained the different between school children and soldier-aged people. Your point (as usual) is about telling people they haven't read your posts while playing the victim.

It's not about him RAPING them....no.....just him being in there with them would make them VERY uncomfortable, even if he was tied to a chair and couldn't move. Just being vulnerable and knowing that someone "could be" fantasizing about you, when you're standing naked in front of them...is enough to make this not about fear of rape, but about TOLERANCE, and SENSITIVITY. Perhaps when the tolerance thing is working against what YOU want it's not quite so important is it?

By your reasoning we should never leave our houses because someone may think we look nice in our clothes, and, well, that would just be uncomfortable.

You should maybe think about how the OTHER people feel....who would be forced to shower in the presence of an openly gay man.

Their fear is their problem.

[/quote]You can deny it all you want...but I believe that MOST men (straight) would be quite uncomfortable getting undressed and showering with an openly gay man next to him. It's not about getting your ass raped.....it's about sensitivity to other people and THEIR rights to feel secure and comfortable in their own shower space.[/quote]

We can all be openly straight but not openly gay right? Your double-standard card is laying face-up on the table.

The whole shower thing is just one example....the barracks is another.
We're not talking about whether we can be friends with these guys, or whether they would watch your back in a firefight.....this is about....tolerance for straight people's feelings. That should matter just as much as tolerance for Gay people's feelings....right???

You're right, both sides should get their due. But you're not giving gays their due.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Oh, well if she was a totally "average" girl.....watching me shower...she'd definitely be touching herself. Still I'd rather she was not there, because it would make me uncomfortable and self conscious. Having a large penis doesn't automatically mean that you're a free spirit I guess.

Step 1: Tell people they aren't reading your posts.
Step 2: Fall back on the "tolerance" position
Step 3: Stroke your own ego.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Tolerance must go both ways.....
Tolerance is a dual edged sword.

Wow! It's like you knew what I wrote before I wrote it.

Originally Posted by Torriatte

Oh, well if she was a totally "average" girl.....watching me shower...she'd definitely be touching herself. Still I'd rather she was not there, because it would make me uncomfortable and self conscious. Having a large penis doesn't automatically mean that you're a free spirit I guess.

Only in your dreams, mate.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Step 3: Stroke your own ego.

Literally!

You just made my point for me......he does have a problem that he should not have to have. This is about tolerance, and the lack of sensitivity by the Gay community. They do not respect the "non gay" feelings...do they?

It must suck to have that "tolerance and sensitivity" crap thrown in your face...doesn't it?
Welcome to my world.

Liberals and Progressives have used that tool for a long time....If you don't agree with them...you're an intolerant racist homophobe with tolerance issues.

Oh, holy clusterfuck...you want to drag tolerance into this? How about this: why can't YOU tolerate a MINORITY? Who gives a rat's ass if a dude likes watching other dudes shower? That's no reason to treat them as less than equal. Yes, you are denying them the same rights and privileges as straight men. If a straight man is weirded out by showering with a gay dude, that is their problem. They can adjust. Gay people can't just change orientation. Don't Ask, Don't Tell is the workplace equivalent of denying someone employment from an average job based on their orientation. It doesn't fly there, so why should it be allowed in the military?