Slaughterhouse Cruelty

[Arra]

I'm making this post in response to the deletion of the recent animal cruelty post that's thread was closed due to graphic violence against animals. I didn't actually watch the video, because it was deleted before I found the thread, but would like to resume a similar discussion here to what was intended, without the actual video. From the comments, I take it that the video was about the inhumane killing of pigs at some farm. Many of the comments expressed discontent at the video, but an assumption that the case in question is probably rare, so there's no need to worry. Although I don't know the severity of the cruelty in the video, I know that cruelty in slaughterhouses is a serious problem. Laws pertaining to how animals should be slaughtered are often broken in these slaughterhouses. Documentaries have been filmed in which someone goes undercover into one of these slaughterhouses and witnesses horrific things. Cows witnessing those before it getting killed, occasionally being de-limbed or skinned while still alive, hogs being lowered screaming into boiling water, etc. And these are not rare cases. These are primary slaughterhouses whose meat thousands end up eating. Look up more information for yourself if you're interested.

[Original Poster]

I heard cattle is in such poor condition they have to be on antibiotics their entire life just to make it to slaughter time.

[LucidFlanders]

Seen 1 slaughter video, seen them all. They all look the same. I've seen many.

[Xei]

The problem I had with the video was that it was such a blatant false dichotomy. The choice between only eating plants and kicking pigs is not a real one. If it was a video to make people switch to humane, free range food sources, and to demand far more stringent legal measures, then that would make sense. But trying to paint the entire meat industry in this fashion is just going to turn people off. I live in the countryside, and the animals here are all well-treated, contented-looking creatures. Farmers do not spend their days kicking them for lulz; like all of us here they are normal human beings who care for their welfare.

[Arra]

Well was the purpose of the video obviously to make people switch to vegetarianism? I didn't see it. I'm not sure, but I've heard the main problems take place in bigger slaughterhouses that have a lot of animals to kill are just trying to do it as efficiently as possible (efficiently != painlessly). Smaller farms probably aren't a problem.

[louie54]

Well was the purpose of the video obviously to make people switch to vegetarianism? That seems to be PETAs agenda tbh

[IndieAnthias]

Let me just give you an excerpt from an e-mail that my ethics professor sent out to the class the day before showing Earthlings. That's a separate film form the one in discussion but the issue remains of is this type of footage representative. The second film will show scenes that are at least relatively commonplace and often the standard in the various industries, including (for example) the dolphin fishing industry. Be prepared, though, because North Americans tend to be surprisingly unaware of what the standard practices are in these industries, especially worldwide. I have never shown this second film to students before, and would not show it at all, were it not for the interest that my students have shown in this particular issue. Phil 314 students have already seen little pieces of some of this same footage, but always the least unpleasant and most universal pieces. Over the past 3 1/2 years, I have shown these pieces of footage to many students, and have received (from those students) as many as two dozen complaints. So far, *all* of the complaints have taken the form of "how dare you show such artificially pleasant, non-representative footage to you students. I *worked* in (and/or witnessed/visited/researched) one or more of these industries, and the situation is *far* more horrifying than you've led your students to believe." I have always done my best, on this issue, to err on the side of extreme caution, showing students only the things that they would see no matter what relevant fieldtrip we might take in any of the animal industries. 5:30 pm tomorrow is my attempt to assess whether I have really been doing that.

[Xei]

Well was the purpose of the video obviously to make people switch to vegetarianism? I didn't see it. I'm not sure, but I've heard the main problems take place in bigger slaughterhouses that have a lot of animals to kill are just trying to do it as efficiently as possible (efficiently != painlessly). Smaller farms probably aren't a problem. Actually they were trying to get people to become vegans. Milk and eggs are just as bad. Free range chickens don't exist. Or something.

[Quantiq]

Yeah it was a video for vegan advocacy. And I agree with you Xei. I know someone who actually owns a dairy farm and I know for sure he doesn't spend his free time kicking and punching cows. The cows in fact live outside eating grass all day, pretty chill life if you ask me. I'm all for the exposure of animal cruelty and extremes in farming practices but the problem lies in the idiocy of the film. Apparently there is no such thing as free range farm animals, kosher meat and farmers who actually have common sense and intelligence. Not every person I'm sure punches and kicks their livestock all day as the message seems to be with this film. I'm quite aware of the fact that there are extremes in farming practices but to completely render the entire farming industry like this is stupidity. Anyway, just my thoughts. I wouldn't necessarily go entirely vegan but I think there is a message in this. Perhaps, we should support farms which practice sensible and ethical treatment of animals.

[Original Poster]

I didn't see it that way but I never saw the video. I was going to mention how I get all my meat free range but I didn't want to sound like a snob, especially since that's not true, I eat at restaurants that probably go through these types of vendors.

[IndieAnthias]

We all have anecdotal stories of farmers who treat their animals kindly. They have nothing to hide. The ones who don't threat their animals kindly do have something to hide. So what do you think the proportion is of acceptable practices to unacceptable practices? Don't you think that's a relevant question to ask? (For the record I did see the video that got taken down by the mods because I PM'd wana for it. I think it's very unfortunate that it got removed form the forum, because it wasn't shocking for the sake of being shocking, it was simple presentation of reality. The "go vegan" message was tacked onto the end but whether or not it was propaganda depends on how my above question gets answered. My opinion is that the real reason it got taken down is a reflection of the overall situation... people don't really want to see these things.) The situations depicted in films like Earthlings could easily be widely representative because workers in mass production slaughterhouses are not just prone to becoming numb to animal suffering, but required to be. Mass production is not the same as local-scale operations in this respect. Also, mass-production satisfies a huge majority of our demand. Obvious, really.

[Xei]

We all have anecdotal stories of farmers who treat their animals kindly. They have nothing to hide. The ones who don't threat their animals kindly do have something to hide. So what do you think the proportion is of acceptable practices to unacceptable practices? Don't you think that's a relevant question to ask? We all have anecdotal stories of fathers who treat their children kindly. They have nothing to hide. The ones who don't threat their children kindly do have something to hide. So what do you think the proportion is of acceptable practices to unacceptable practices? Don't you think that's a relevant question to ask? Answer: stop fathers having children. Good thinking.

[Original Poster]

We all have anecdotal stories of fathers who treat their children kindly. They have nothing to hide. The ones who don't threat their children kindly do have something to hide. So what do you think the proportion is of acceptable practices to unacceptable practices? Don't you think that's a relevant question to ask? Answer: stop fathers having children. Good thinking. Alright this response is so obviously bullshit even you have to realize it. Do some research. Last I heard it's not routine to add antibiotics to your kid's food so they can survive just long enough to reach adulthood. Last I heard children aren't typically in such poor condition by the time they reach adulthood that they're on the verge of dying from disease.

[IndieAnthias]

pretty weak, Xei. That conclusion doesn't follow from my statement. It's simplistic and reductionist. Your concoction, not mine. The "good thinking" is all yours. Hold your arrogant condescension when you talk to me. I'm capable of reasonable discussion.

[Xei]

Alright this response is so obviously bullshit even you have to realize it. Do some research. Last I heard it's not routine to add antibiotics to your kid's food so they can survive just long enough to reach adulthood. Last I heard children aren't typically in such poor condition by the time they reach adulthood that they're on the verge of dying from disease. Because we have laws in place and we enforce them well. Ta da!

[Original Poster]

Because we have laws in place and we enforce them well. Ta da! No dumbass it's because people generally like their children and don't see them as dollar signs.

[IndieAnthias]

Also, Xei, I took what you said about false dichotomy into consideration. I wasn't marginalizing anecdote. That's why I asked what people thought was the proportion (should have said ratio, technically) of acceptable practice to unacceptable.

[Xei]

And my simple point was that an unacceptable proportion does not imply 'shutting the whole thing down' (hence the reductio ad absurdum), it can just mean better laws and better enforcement of those laws. What's wrong with this argument? No dumbass it's because people generally like their children and don't see them as dollar signs. People generally like animals. How I analogy?? I so confuz!?

[IndieAnthias]

'shutting the whole thing down' I never said that. You're right. I agree. Better laws would help. Why are we fighting?

[Original Poster]

Just goes to show even when xei agrees with you he still wont agree with you

[Xei]

Just goes to show even when xei agrees with you he still wont agree with you Hurf derf hur. If I had mistaken his argument and we were actually agreed, why was my analogy 'bullshit'? Whoopsie daisy. Great intellectual consistency there bro. I never said that. You're right. I agree. Better laws would help. Why are we fighting? Because from the context of the discussion it appeared that you were defending the dichotomy, and that your question was 'wasn't the video right to suggest that the proportion of unacceptable practices suggests that we should ban the meat industry'? Turns out this wasn't what you were saying and we were both agreeing on a moderate position.

[Original Poster]

Just because your analogy was bullshit doesn't mean we can't agree that the solution is to improve the regulations in the livestock industry. You tried to relate livestock to children, I mean come on dude. Maybe if you tried relating it to slavery it would have worked.

[Arra]

The analogy would have been adequate if you had originally been arguing that the entire meat industry should be shut down. But you weren't, and Xei mistook it and now it's all been clarified. /argument

[Original Poster]

No, it still wouldn't have been accurate because the two ideas are completely unrelated and people's attitudes on the subject are completely different /argument

[Xei]

ITT: 'electric voltage is like water pressure'. 'YOU CAN'T DRINK ELECTRICITY HENCE THAT IS INVALID.'