Thread: AI!!!?

I read a story once about AI that referred to them as 2 different types: AI and Ascended Machines. The AI being 'fake' consciousness and ascended being 'real' or more 'human-like'. Although I'm not sure whether consciousness and soul are the same thing. Does an ascended machine have a soul? does being conscious automatically enable you to transition into the afterlife?

What I find particularly interesting is how scientists explain consciousness as a neural network. If you look at the internet as being many nodes on a network will it too come to life one day? We seem to be approaching the singularity very rapidly and if there isn't already a God there will be soon.

I think consciousness is our soul itself our core.... it can't by any means be created artificially ....it's a spiritual thing the spirit itself can't be implemented into a machine a bunch of silicone .... Or ??? Not I'm sure what do you think ??? it's impossible.....

Fear not, Karloky; true AI (conscious, self-aware, thinking, feeling machines) is still quite a ways off. It turns out that consciousness is a fairly complex thing, and even mimicking it is difficult.

Regarding those translating glasses and other "conveniences," though: That stuff is already coming -- indeed, much of it is already here -- and there is definitely cause for concern. I think that as more and more things are done for us, we will begin to lose (or disregard) our own ability to learn, to create, and to grow. It's definitely going to be a challenge!

If you haven't already, you might consider reading an old sc-fi book called Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut, as it paints a very clear picture of what you're suggesting.

Before we start calling AI robots conscious we should take a serious look at the life around us and ask if all life is conscious to some degree.

If something is CONSCIOUS isn't it alive? So how can we then turn around and say that the majority of life on earth isnt?? How can we so easily say "what is conscious is alive" but "what is alive may not be conscious"? Does that make sense?

Right now, biology teaches that the origin of life isn't conscious. That the origin of life is a machine that simply grew because it was programmed to and its programming is completely random.

Once upon a time, all life was nothing but individual living cells. Then those cells starting growing together in large colonies. Evolution took an EPIC leap forward. The microbial colony differentiated roles. Outer microbes became "skin" or "legs", inner microbes became "stomach" and other functions. But they all shared the same DNA.

The DNA to create a multicellular organism (which is what we are) evolved from those microbial colonies. Yet according to biology, they aren't conscious and consciousness is not in any way a part of this evolutionary feat of the first multicellular organisms.

Yet according to the same biology, consciousness is produced in the human brain. And what is the human brain but billions and billions of individual living cells living in a network? The neurons' ancestor was that very same microbial colony living billions of years ago by the sea.

So - how is biology not stuck in the stone ages in terms of understanding consciousness and its role in life??? If consciousness really is created by a network of living cells (the brain) then consciousness was also created by those microbial colonies (because its also a network!!). That primordial network generated so much INTELLIGENCE that plant and animal life was thus created!

It really was an evolutionary breakthrough of epic proportions. A lot of people today believe humans are repeating the past with our technology.

So we can start arguing that a living network of some kind is necessary to create consciousness. I'm not saying thats true, I don't believe thats the whole story. But its an avenue for biology to explore (and where people believe the internet is going). Mind you, when you look inside an individual living cell, its not like its "basic". Individual living cells can come with as many parts inside of them as the human body. There are microscopic "networks" tinkering away all inside the individual cell.

For humans, its hard for us to accept that something like a tree is conscious. The difficulty of this question is we aren't just conscious. We are self-conscious of ourselves. Its an epic mind-loop of consciousness that buddhists are crazy about. I am conscious that I am conscious!!!! And according to the bible, that statement is literally the name of God. (simplified as I Am that I Am)

Being SELF-conscious gives us that "I"

When we understand consciousness in biology, than we can easily see at one point AI becomes alive. But those first "living" AI machines will be like the earlier evolutions of this planet. It will have the awareness it needs to survive, "this is safe, this is not safe". But what about self-awareness??

And again self-awareness would be the capacity to ask "WHO is thinking 'this is safe and this is not safe'? Is that me?"

No matter how hard we look at this cell or that cell we haven't found self-awareness in the brain. And can we really say that our self-awareness IS the brain?

We can't. We walk around saying "I think" "I feel" "I am". Not "my brain thinks" "my brain feels" "my brain is". Our sense of self, whether you believe is 'generated' by the brain, is experienced completely independent of it. That's what makes self-awareness a biological mystery and the subject of spirituality.

Do I think its possible for AI to become self-aware? Absolutely. At one point? Who knows!

But I'm weary of a science making claims of AI being conscious for this or that reason when it can't even accept that the rest of life on earth is also conscious (to at least a primordial extent!)

Originally Posted by juroara

But I'm weary of a science making claims...

You either mean wary or leery -- weary means tired.

teh grammer pleece

I rolled out of bed late and then rolled into work half awake

Got into an interesting discussion about AI with my uncle last weekend. Went something like this:

Last century we had movements to give equal rights to women and end racial discrimination.
This century we're moving to give equal rights to homosexuals.

Maybe next century we'll be giving equal rights to artificial intelligence?

Ray Kurzweil has predicted that we will vote for a computer to take a public office in this century, actually in the next couple of decades. Of course, he has personal 'immortality' transhuman goals for AI, but he's obviously got the credentials, and now that Google has given him a Director position (along with the several other businesses he runs) he may actually pull it off. Many believe that the massive amounts of data traversing the Internet and being stored will certainly help propel any sort of AI. Others believe the Internet will take on a consciousness of its own by virtue of complexity.

Could the Earth be conscious? Gaia. Maybe the Sun too, maybe the Galaxy. Where does consciousness start, and where does it end? Is it individually constructed in our bag of neurons? Or is it shared collectively as Carl Jung suggested among us? Perhaps even trans-species? These ideas also have ancient Eastern roots, deeper than what Western science has to offer, yet.

Plants are conscious by many definitions, and Rupert Sheldrake's controversial model of Morphic Resonance shows us how our own consciousness is inextricably linked to plants and other elements of the natural environment. Fascinating? Or too weird?

If you're really interested in exploring this, I highly recommend listening to the Trialogues. A series of conversations between Rupert Sheldrake, Ralph Abraham, and Terrance McKenna that took place during the 1980's and 1990's. Obviously very intellectual group, and way ahead of their time. Here's the URL: Books & Recordings - Trialogues - index

Do not fear change. Things like translating glasses would be extremely helpful and would promote the spreading of knowledge all around the world. Who has time to spends 3-5 years learning a new language, for the 5000+ languages of the world? Would take you 25,000 years to learn those languages! Impossible at the moment, though with technology we might greatly enhance our life span, and it is possible we could live that long in the future.

When you think about it, a human is just a biological computer. There is nothing magical or supernatural about our brains or how we work. If someone were to replicate the thinking processes of a human, on a computer, that could would have all the traits of a human. One could even argue the computer was alive and a person, and I for one have no issue with that at all.

What is the difference between a person being born as a baby, or created as a robot, if that person then grew, learn and became just like you or me? Does their origin as a robot make them any less alive, or conscious? No, not really. I am entirely in favor of giving robots that develop human like qualities, full rights as citizens. I am also in favor of giving any future animals who are augmented, either biologically or through brain implants, full rights as humans as well, if they can be increased to our intelligence level.

AI doesn't currently have awareness or consciousness but it is pretty much a given that they will in time. Probably far soon than most people suspect too. However, that isn't a bad thing. It is the formation of a new life form, an artificial man made life form. That is bad ass. I am looking forward to it. I want to make friends with robots, who become alive. Don't hate on robots. Also, we will probably end up putting our brains in robot bodies any way, so we will be robots. It is kind of silly to hate on robots, if we become robots our self.

Originally Posted by Alric

Do not fear change. Things like translating glasses would be extremely helpful and would promote the spreading of knowledge all around the world. Who has time to spends 3-5 years learning a new language, for the 5000+ languages of the world? Would take you 25,000 years to learn those languages! Impossible at the moment, though with technology we might greatly enhance our life span, and it is possible we could live that long in the future.

When you think about it, a human is just a biological computer. There is nothing magical or supernatural about our brains or how we work. If someone were to replicate the thinking processes of a human, on a computer, that could would have all the traits of a human. One could even argue the computer was alive and a person, and I for one have no issue with that at all.

What is the difference between a person being born as a baby, or created as a robot, if that person then grew, learn and became just like you or me? Does their origin as a robot make them any less alive, or conscious? No, not really. I am entirely in favor of giving robots that develop human like qualities, full rights as citizens. I am also in favor of giving any future animals who are augmented, either biologically or through brain implants, full rights as humans as well, if they can be increased to our intelligence level.

AI doesn't currently have awareness or consciousness but it is pretty much a given that they will in time. Probably far soon than most people suspect too. However, that isn't a bad thing. It is the formation of a new life form, an artificial man made life form. That is bad ass. I am looking forward to it. I want to make friends with robots, who become alive. Don't hate on robots. Also, we will probably end up putting our brains in robot bodies any way, so we will be robots. It is kind of silly to hate on robots, if we become robots our self.

why would we become robots it's f****** stupid lol and robots can't have feelings no the can't they are just a bunch of unalive electronic parts....they will never have feelings or anything like that or some higher awareness......if you call I don't know sensors on robots like some kind of awareness it's not .....and why would I want to be a robot I am a human ...it's f****** stupid

Why couldn't a robot have feelings? Emotions are just chemical reactions in the brain, you can replicate those same sensation electronically. Pretty much all things about being human will eventually be replicated by robots. There is absolutely no reason to believe a robot can't have awareness or feel things.

Robots will be better than humans, because their body can survive a lot more than a humans body can, and you will live far longer.

Originally Posted by Alric

Why couldn't a robot have feelings? Emotions are just chemical reactions in the brain, you can replicate those same sensation electronically. Pretty much all things about being human will eventually be replicated by robots. There is absolutely no reason to believe a robot can't have awareness or feel things.

Robots will be better than humans, because their body can survive a lot more than a humans body can, and you will live far longer.

anyway why would anyone want to create a race that is better than us...and yet maybe we will be destroyed by them...why would anyone want it? lol.....and I am not so sure....there is something spiritual in it...it's not only raw chemistry....there are some spiritual things that cannot be replicated by any artificial thing

Originally Posted by Karloky

anyway why would anyone want to create a race that is better than us...and yet maybe we will be destroyed by them...why would anyone want it? lol.....and I am not so sure....there is something spiritual in it...it's not only raw chemistry....there are some spiritual things that cannot be replicated by any artificial thing

If we create a race of immortal super-robots, they can carry on our legacy. And there is little reason to believe there is anything "spiritual" or supernatural about the mind (or anything, for that matter). Just because science hasn't figured it out yet doesn't mean it never will.

There is no logical reason to believe biological life is any more special than artificial life. What if we made a robot out of organic material? Then it would be living. So even if you wanted to believe biological stuff is some how special, you can make biological robots. And why wouldn't we make them? They are better, and that is reason enough. Especially if we can become robots our self. Who wants a body that ages and falls apart? An artificial body is much better.

Originally Posted by Karloky

anyway why would anyone want to create a race that is better than us...and yet maybe we will be destroyed by them...why would anyone want it? lol.....and I am not so sure....there is something spiritual in it...it's not only raw chemistry....there are some spiritual things that cannot be replicated by any artificial thing

Artificial only means that it was made by humans, or some other intelligence. If God created human beings, then humans are artificial. All we are is matter and energy. Once we figure out how to arrange matter and energy in the correct fashion... hey presto! Life.

Originally Posted by Alric

There is no logical reason to believe biological life is any more special than artificial life. What if we made a robot out of organic material? Then it would be living. So even if you wanted to believe biological stuff is some how special, you can make biological robots. And why wouldn't we make them? They are better, and that is reason enough. Especially if we can become robots our self. Who wants a body that ages and falls apart? An artificial body is much better.

btw why would you want to make something better than you....it's like idk flies would make spiders to eat them it's stupid.......why would you make something better than you that could eeven pontentially harm you...........and anyway what would you do if you lived forever.....I would ask you if you lived like around 500 years......how would it be.....and is your life fullfilled.....totaly.....

Originally Posted by Karloky

btw why would you want to make something better than you....it's like idk flies would make spiders to eat them it's stupid.......why would you make something better than you that could eeven pontentially harm you...........

You can solve this problem by sprinkling in a little SELinux policy to allow only actions and behavior that won't lead to a glorious uprising over our human masters. I mean--shucks, you're right! Guess we've gotta give all the robots death rays and Terminator-esque physiques!

Originally Posted by Karloky

and anyway what would you do if you lived forever.....I would ask you if you lived like around 500 years......how would it be.....and is your life fullfilled.....totaly.....

It'd be fantastic. Life is an amazing fulfillment unto itself, and anyone who'd want to give that up for no other reason than "that's just how the body has always worked and we'd be stupid to try and hold onto life in whatever way possible" is an ungrateful moron IMO. Oh, and it wouldn't technically be forever...we've still got the heat-death of the universe looming in the distance!

Humans have not even gotten out of our tiny little corner of the universe yet. The human life span isn't enough to accomplish anything of even remote significant on a larger scale. There is so many things a person could do, we will never run out of fun and interesting things to do and see. Asking me in a billion years if I am bored of life, maybe by then we will be reaching a limit but I doubt it. 500 years however? That is nothing. You could fill 500 years doing nothing but watching tv, and never watching a repeat.

As for why build AI and robots that are better than us, we want to do it to improve our lives. We are limited by the tools we have, and so we need to build better tools to achieve greater things.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

You can solve this problem by sprinkling in a little SELinux policy to allow only actions and behavior that won't lead to a glorious uprising over our human masters. I mean--shucks, you're right! Guess we've gotta give all the robots death rays and Terminator-esque physiques!



It'd be fantastic. Life is an amazing fulfillment unto itself, and anyone who'd want to give that up for no other reason than "that's just how the body has always worked and we'd be stupid to try and hold onto life in whatever way possible" is an ungrateful moron IMO. Oh, and it wouldn't technically be forever...we've still got the heat-death of the universe looming in the distance!

excuse me you are really rude.....and btw.....just go for it.....if you would be happy too live forever just go for it.....a really messed up mind....

I'm still not convinced that robotic life would be superior to biological life. From what I've seen, robotic engineers are constantly having to refer to biological to get anything accomplished. They kinda have to mimic real life forms.

Biological life forms are able to heal themselves, regenerate cells, completely change their form. As of right now robotics would have to have their parts replaced. Upgrades are fun and nice but in the grand scheme of things it means the robot lacks self-sufficiency. I think A.I. would find it makes them 'less' than other life forms.

I'm sure robotic engineers are already trying to duplicate self-regeneration with nano technology or whatever. And maybe that requires a higher energy output - like "eating".

The biggest reason why people feel robotics would be superior is because we grow old and die. Natural death is strange. For one, its literally programmed into the biological being. We are "programmed" to grow old and die. When biologists ask why the only answer they can come up with is because change is necessary for the continuation of life. Evolution always happens as a mutation born in the next generation.

One brilliant computer scientist argued against humans turning into immortal robots for this reason. Being an old man he realized that cultural change and human evolution of thought isnt possible unless the older generation passes giving way to the younger generation.

Were only human! Unfortunately, we get stuck in our ways. We think were right. We don't think we have to change. We grow egos. Were too afraid to change, we don't know how to change. Even if a human lives forever, how many years will it take before that human can rise above their inherit human ignorance. Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? That's a really long time to mess things up for all new life forms, especially when living that long also places you in a position of power.

Also, having instant access to massive amount of information doesn't change our human nature either. I mean, does having the internet instantly making us a superior race? Have you read youtube comments lately? I think were getting dumber.

Unfortunately for you and me, we have to die for mankind to become a better race.... Hopefully we have children before that! And, I realize this argument probably won't make much sense to someone who doesn't believe in the soul. If you cease to exist when you die then you probably do have a stronger incentive to live forever.

Also, you should watch the awesome anime casshern. It makes the argument that life is meaningless for an immortal robot, until it becomes mortal.

Originally Posted by Karloky

excuse me you are really rude.....and btw.....just go for it.....if you would be happy too live forever just go for it.....a really messed up mind....

Right. You're telling us that we're insane, but we're the rude ones.

I don't know, Juroara, you might be selling the human spirit a little short.

First, let's assume for a second that the engineers invent a robotic form that is on equal footing with nature, just to get past the first (and, yes, sensible, part of your post), and that form can live indefinitely, and has capacity to incorporate a human mind.

Now:

Originally Posted by juroara

The biggest reason why people feel robotics would be superior is because we grow old and die. Natural death is strange. For one, its literally programmed into the biological being. We are "programmed" to grow old and die. When biologists ask why the only answer they can come up with is because change is necessary for the continuation of life. Evolution always happens as a mutation born in the next generation.

We are currently programmed to grow old and die; that may change in the future, as geneticists continue to decipher the mechanisms that allow our bodies to decay. And yes, that is the way evolution works, on a global scale. But who is to say that humans haven't reached their pinnacle of physical evolution, and the next might be one of mind? And, if it is of mind, then the changes will be less genetic mutations affecting generations than spiritual ascensions affecting individuals.

I'm all in favor of believing that that evolution of mind will extend our conscious lives dramatically, perhaps permanently, and I'm willing to believe that one of the parameters of that change will be an eventual discarding of our physical bodies. Though I'd like to believe that the ultimate form we would have is one of self-aware conscious energy (aka, perhaps, a self-realized soul), why couldn't one of the steps along the way include placement in machines? If we are able to hold onto our selves, the nature of the vessel shouldn't matter, I think.

Programs can change, and humans seem naturally built to adapt to change (just look at how much has changed in the last five generations or so, and we continue to thrive).

One brilliant computer scientist argued against humans turning into immortal robots for this reason. Being an old man he realized that cultural change and human evolution of thought isnt possible unless the older generation passes giving way to the younger generation.

That's just sad. The scientist might have been brilliant, but the man was looking for reasons to explain his age an immanent death to himself.

Were only human! Unfortunately, we get stuck in our ways. We think were right. We don't think we have to change. We grow egos. Were too afraid to change, we don't know how to change. Even if a human lives forever, how many years will it take before that human can rise above their inherit human ignorance. Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? That's a really long time to mess things up for all new life forms, especially when living that long also places you in a position of power.

Agreed. All the "only humans" -- probably most of us -- who refuse to elevate the state of their beings or cannot even see beyond their own egos will indeed not change, ever. But would this evolution of mind be for everyone, or for an imaginative, intrepid few who choose to rise above their inherent human ignorance? I'm guessing the latter. And, given that those few are evolutionarily prepared for long life, they may also be able to grow with their extended years, to eventually become something not so inherently ignorant -- maybe even something better.

Yes, it might even require hundreds or thousands of years to become better (perhaps our dream of building "immortal" machines -- even our need to beat death in general -- comes from an innate understanding that we need a lot more than our current lifespans to truly reach our spiritual potentials).

I also imagine that yes, some of these few will be a real threat to humanity, but there also might be some willing to work with the rest of humanity to improve its fortunes -- and maybe relieve some of that self-inflicted ignorance!

Also, having instant access to massive amount of information doesn't change our human nature either. I mean, does having the internet instantly making us a superior race? Have you read youtube comments lately? I think were getting dumber.

Agreed. But everyone isn't on Youtube, and many are indeed using this information to learn and grow. They may be obscured in the thicket of inanity and cute kittens, but they are there.

Unfortunately for you and me, we have to die for mankind to become a better race.... Hopefully we have children before that! And, I realize this argument probably won't make much sense to someone who doesn't believe in the soul. If you cease to exist when you die then you probably do have a stronger incentive to live forever.

Now there is the real irony in this tale!

What if, upon death, that evolution of mind happens naturally? Wouldn't that be a big surprise to the fellow who installs his consciousness into a machine, spends 10,000 years growing in knowledge and spirit, and upon his long-awaited moment of ascension to a pure energy being he is greeted by the animated souls of the family he left behind an eon ago, who say as one: "Bob, where the hell have you been? We've been like this since we died!"

Also, you should watch the awesome anime casshern. It makes the argument that life is meaningless for an immortal robot, until it becomes mortal.

That was a great series... but I've found that stories about immortality (in any form) almost invariably make the immortality seem tiresome or meaningless. I think this is because these things are written by people who are going to die one day for people who will die one day, and everyone wants to be reassured that that is the best way things should be.

Originally Posted by TimeDragon97

Right. You're telling us that we're insane, but we're the rude ones.

but ....can call me stupid :/ that's really nice ....

anyway I didn't say that evolution is bad but not in this way where it's going..... it's going in a bad way.... and even if we lived for several eternities we would never understand anything better nor we would become better towards each other....humans are just ignorant selfish creatures without any respect towards anyone or any compassion or empathy towards others.....even if we lived for 1000 000 years .....we would learn NOTHING.....what for all that knowledge if we behave like we are god given.....which is not true....like we are bosses of everything which is not true........and this kind of development won't get us nowhere we could only become more ignorant, less compassionate towards each other.....and become more dumb and that's all

anyway it's proven that technology along with computers destroys our brain....and I guess it has much more effect on people who don't go to higher schools....it's proven that technology makes us more and more not to use our brain

Humans die because of all the flaws in biological life. The flaws build up until eventually there is so many it kills us. People grow old and die a lot faster than other objects. There is nothing good or useful about people dying. I think the idea of the old dying for the new is absurd, it is just a cop out, an excuse to make people feel good. Like if they die, some how they are contributing to the future generations. But the fact is, that isn't true at all. All your knowledge is lost when you die, and that is a shame, and sets up back a little each time a person dies.