Thread: sloth goes insane. (Please read)

I want to be stranded on a deserted island. I'm so certain of this, I've even begun seriously planning how to accomplish this.

How's Friday sound?

it'll take a while to backread this whole thread, but I'm eager to jump in on this.

So you went out and lived in the wilderness like thoreau? That's awesome, man, bravo!

And with this whole 'lump' business, I know what you're talking about. It seems to me that you glimpsed the truth, it's just that we don't live in a time or place that is ready for the truth. I personally believe that our western way of life is based on lies and shallow rewards, and that to see the truth would mean appearing 'weird' to anyone who followed the american dream.

I've had trouble with depression for a long time. Like Wombing did, I try to avoid thinking about all the problems of our way of life by staying stoned most of the time. Seeing the truth has never been to my advantage. Coming out of a meditation there's always a blissful feeling of understanding, a motivation to change your life and the lives of those around you. Then there's a brief period of motivation when you try to set your ideals into action. Then there's always a horrible feeling of disappointment, when you inevitably realize that the people around you aren't interested in finding meaning in their lives, they only want to get drunk, fuck around, and watch tv. Then there's a larger disappointment when you realize what's happening in the world at large and how hopelessly depraved everyone seems to be. Then you go back to getting stoned and trying not to think about it. I must be crazy, I think to myself. No one understands what I'm trying to tell them. Or no one cares. Well, crazy or not, I just know that everyone else is wrong, and I wouldn't want to trade places with anyone. Maybe some day, long after I'm dead, people will realize how depressing and pathetic their lives are. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime, but knowing that it might eventually turn out alright is enough reason to stay alive.

But there is a bright side. When I'm with that small handfull of people that understand, I really feel at peace. If I could just tune out the outside world completely and live in the wilderness with others like me, I'd die a very happy man. Depending on how things go in the next few years, I might just end up like that. If I suddenly disappear from the internet, I haven't died, I've simply gone into the woods to escape it all, and I won't be back soon.

[quote]
Why?
Just because the norm puts labels on everything in order to use it to their advantage liberation can be a state of awareness that is unconditioned. The labeling process is always taking ideals a reconstructing them.
"Words are meant to signify distinctions. As soon as Everything is Something, then the distinction is lost. Therefore it is when we list the attributes of anything, we can forego saying that it exists, as it is understood. "

My entire take on your journey sloth was not this freedom you went through it is the result you came to that matters. As describes in the Gospel, One has to lose oneself to find oneself. That is what happened to you it seems.
The process of awareness is not pretty by any means. Waking up to reality hurts. The process hurts.
Oddly enough the more complicated our questions become the more muddled up our decisions and life become. The answers seem to be much more simplistic that we make them.

I am uneducated in a lot of your thoughts Leo. But in the same manner I feel that the perils and opportunities of reality can show us much of the same things. Just pointed out in a different way.

Well, Mr. Howetzer, there is also the Problem of Paradox inherent in Spirituality. have you not ever considered that while one sees Liberation as important and desireable, then to that same extent it is unattainable.

I think it was Vivekananda who had said that one cannot become liberated until one gives up on the desire for Liberation.

and, no, one cannot pretend about any of this. One has to REALLY stop giving such a shit about everything. One has to REALLY become like Sloth. One can't imagine becoming Liberated and still suppose that one will continue to shine one's shoes and keep up the boat payments.

And one can only give up that last obstructive Desire for Liberation by recognizing the real problems, and the real disincentives to Liberation. One needs to read Sloth's Journal word for word an appreciate just how miserable Liberation is.

What is Liberation after all but apathy spelled out with capital letters. One great broad emotional and intellectual A P A T H Y. Oh, that sounds fun, doesn't it.

Become Liberated of your Liberation and then you really will be Free.

Originally posted by sloth
How's Friday sound?

Let's go.

sloth, nina, dangeruss.... perhaps we should find a chain of islands scattered in the pacific and have an expedition...that way we can all have our solitude if we need it, but likeminded company is only an hour's worth of swimming away

keep on trucking russ...one day the vast majority of people will wake up, stretch, and change the world completely...we've got to trust that, and do our best to make small changes in the meantime

and leo and howetzer, i can't resist quoting kahlil gibran and his thoughts on freedom (liberation).

On Freedom
And an orator said, "Speak to us of Freedom." *

And he answered: *

At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom, *

Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them. *

Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff. *

And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment. *

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief, *

But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound. *

And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour? *

In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes. *

And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free? *

If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead. *

You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them. *

And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed. *

For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their won pride? *

And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you. *

And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared. *

Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape. *

These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling. *

And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light. *

And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom. [/b]

Originally posted by wombing
sloth, nina, dangeruss.... perhaps we should find a chain of islands scattered in the pacific and have an expedition...that way we can all have our solitude if we need it, but likeminded company is only an hour's worth of swimming away *

Very yes.

Originally posted by wombing
sloth, nina, dangeruss.... perhaps we should find a chain of islands scattered in the pacific and have an expedition...that way we can all have our solitude if we need it, but likeminded company is only an hour's worth of swimming away *

dude, can i come? i've always wanted my own deserted island!

LMAO

hmm an island adventure with nina and wombing? sign me up!

You're right wombing. Things might change in the future, all we can do is hope that people will be ready to hear us out before we die. If not, we'll have to leave something behind for them to dig up and read once they are ready.

Dear Wombing,

On Freedom
And an orator said, "Speak to us of Freedom."

And he answered:

At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom,

Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.

Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.

And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief,

But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound.

And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?

In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes.

And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?

If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.

You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them.

And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.

For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their won pride?

And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you.

And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared.

Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape.

These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling.

And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light.

And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom. [/b]

Huh?

When it is already so difficult to make one's self understood even when trying to write in the clearest and most precise of narrative styles, it is just plain annoying when one is asked to make sense of poetry. And one suspects that the Poets don't have much of a clear idea either, or they would speak plainly and in narrative. It is as though Poetry is the language of ambiguity and emotional indecision. Also, if a Poet can manage to be vague enough, then it is possible that he might be able to please everybody. Use a few popular buzz words and spread the ideas around and everyone might find something that they think they agree with.

Also, the problem with speaking constantly in metaphor is, well, metaphors are not real. When dealing with Poetical Metaphors one must constantly ask one's self whether the metaphors are in fact referring to any Real Things. for instance, Religious People often speak of Good and Evil in terms of the symbols and metaphors if the Creation Story -- Adam, Eve, Serpents, Trees, Paradise, Earth. It had occurred to me that it was bordering on sheer silliness to not speak on such subjects directly, without these unnecessary poetic images, symbols and metaphors.

But, regarding poetry, there are a great many people who will pay top dollar for little bound volumes of Poetry who would never think of purchasing Non-fiction narrative philosophy. And then, probably most importantly, Poets get laid a lot more than philosophers. So while many in the world virtually worship Poets as approaching some kind of Divinity, I hope I am forgiven to suspecting that of mercenary animalitiy.

But this is not to confuse these Poets with the Goddess Oracles. Once in a Dream, I was introduced to the Concept of the Goddess Oracle. There was this Great Voice and it boomed out that I should "Behold the Goddess, the Oracless, the Poetess, the Fount of Wisdom and Guidance for those who can Understand". And out she came. She seemed like just a Crazy Girl in something just a knotch up from a simple peasant dress. But her Talk was elaborate and seemed to make sense on several narrative levels at once, while still being thick with rhyme and alliteration, also having a compelling beat and measure. And yes, while I didn't understand much of that either, I had a feeling that it would have been worth the effort.

But Kahill Gibran.... the guy was writing for his publisher's advances and to fill his little black book with even more chick-numbers. I'd feel silly spending any time trying to superimpose any sense on that ... bucket of smoke and fog.

Oh, regarding Islands in the Pacific.

I've already found mine.

yes, it is fine... but one does lose track of the months and seasons. One is always surprised to find that it is Christmas.

Hah. I live that way anyway leo, except people get angry when I forget all the gift-giving occasions because my only excuse is not giving a damn..

Thank you so much for this story. It once again made me realize that we should enjoy things without reason.
I have read your story with much fascination and I am happy you got over this.

Yeah. I'm bumping an old thread. But this thread made me realize something - something good.
Thanks again.

When it happened, I never imagined that I could ever HELP someone with the story..

Yeah I went through that, reaching the conclusion that it's impossible for humans to understand the meaning of life so we might as well just give it the benefit of the doubt that it has meaning. Doubt kills us and keeps us alive at the same time.

No no. I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if it has meaning or not. I have heard of a theory, 'absurdism', that the universe makes no sense so humans, in an attempt to make sense out of it, are in conflict with the universe. Of course, I don't believe this or anything else. I don't believe that the sun will come up tomorrow.
I think that if life does have a meaning,
-we will never figure it out, and we will be disappointed.
-if we do figure it out, we can never accomplish this meaning, and will be disappointed.
-if we do accomplish whatever goal is set here by earth, will would simply have nothing more to do in life and will be disappointed.

So, it's best that we are ignorant, so that we can still just wonder if there IS a meaning, because if we know, one way or another, we wouldn't like it. Since when have humans actually known what they really want?

-sloth

But I assumed we were not talking about some inherent purpose in humans existing, but in... "why is there something instead of nothing?" that question is the exact same as "Is there meaning to life and what is it?" We purposely have something, and we have no idea why, we're thrown into existence, and in the end it's all we really have... there HAS to be some purpose for there to be something instead of nothing... the question is between purpose and reason. Is there a reason, a meaningless reason, for life, or is there a purpose for life, is there some point to it or is it just there?

Now it's obvious by now to figure with all the paradoxes that come from that, that humans could not possibly comprehend it. Our brains aren't made for it, our sense of logic is incomplete for that task.

But the idea that it's just irrelevant whether there's meaning or not, that's existentialism. That you'll be happy because it's beautiful and that's all that matter, that fruitless labour in cost of getting to exist is worth it a hundred times over, that even though we die and there's no point to us being here the fact the we got to be here is worth it enough.

I'm of different feelings than existentialism. I like to think there is meaning, I like to think what I do has a point, that there may just be a divine smile upon my actions. Surely if there was a being or intelligence that put this here... it would have enough care over the actions of any single creation as another. So my decision is different from yours, my decision is benefit of the doubt. I believe despite how small I am, high puny compared to the universe, I'm alive, I am here instead of not here and my existence is devinely meaningful.

Originally Posted by sloth

No no. I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if it has meaning or not. I have heard of a theory, 'absurdism', that the universe makes no sense so humans, in an attempt to make sense out of it, are in conflict with the universe. Of course, I don't believe this or anything else. I don't believe that the sun will come up tomorrow.
I think that if life does have a meaning,
-we will never figure it out, and we will be disappointed.
-if we do figure it out, we can never accomplish this meaning, and will be disappointed.
-if we do accomplish whatever goal is set here by earth, will would simply have nothing more to do in life and will be disappointed.

So, it's best that we are ignorant, so that we can still just wonder if there IS a meaning, because if we know, one way or another, we wouldn't like it. Since when have humans actually known what they really want?

-sloth
[/b]

I totally agree - Ignorance is bliss. Just like people need to have more than one life goal - One they can actually reach, and a dream. If you reach your goals, then you'll be disappointed - what is left to do?

An update:

Recently I was able to put a name to the 'lump' in my mind..
I spoke with another shrink about what had happened some five or six years ago, and he explained a lot.
After speaking with the doctor I realized that the lump I felt was in fact...

Dissociation!
..Natural dissociation, just like you would feel from a drug.

The doctor said that this was caused by the fact that I was no longer making decisions for myself. He said that the reason it took over was that my actions were being governed by an overwhelming surge of emotions and feelings that were not under my control. This created a different personality.. the inner sloth, so to speak.
He explained that occasions such as this are exactly how 'dissociative disorder' or 'multiple personality disorder' come to surface. He said that this hardly ever happens after the age of 10 which is why this did not happen.
However, if it was possible at all, I was right on the verge of splitting into two people: The sloth that everyone knew, and the one that lived in the forest, on berries, bugs, and fish, and needed no comfort or human contact.
He said that the reason I ran into the woods was because I was retreating from that which had hurt me: my friends, and resorting to the place where I felt most safe... savage nature.

Thank you for listening, once again.
-sloth

Interesting Sloth. Unfortunately I did not catch this topic the first time around.

Ultimately I do agree that life is meant to be experienced. I went through a similar experience (though not quite as severe) about 3 years ago when I realized that the people I cared for did not in truth feel the same. My family especially. I had been alone my entire life for the most part and was at a point where I needed some answers. I quit my job, locked the door of my apartment, and did not emerge for months.

I showered every two weeks and never shaved. I ran out of food in a few weeks and lived off of what crumbs and hard pasta I could find as scraps in the cabinet. I literally sat on the living room carpet and stared for what seemed like an eternity. I was trying to force something out of myself; I needed to somehow transcend the agony of my soul. I was filled with an emptiness that felt like a black hole.

I had quit school at 16 and for many years after had educated myself in philosophy, science, psychology, etc. I realized there was no place for me in this world. Competing for money and careers was probably the most pointless thing I could think of. It was a terrible feeling to know that you did not belong anywhere and that no one would understand it. I have always had a very sharp mind and an abundance of intuition. I realized at this point with clarity that all I had done in the past was stagnate. Whenever I attempted to fulfill my purpose or do what I knew was right I was kicked or spit on. It led to me building a prison around myself where I just studied and studied; in some way trying to fill the void that was left by my inability to change the ignorant world. I needed something, and that something could not be attained. Was it expression or love? It did not matter...for both in this world I had concluded after these months was impossible. This world of backstabbing, greed, and mental stagnation was a complete waste of time.

That night I lay in bed hoping that I would fall asleep and just not wake up again. How easy it would be to just slip away. Of course, my wish was not granted. I decided the next day that I would study until I found an answer no matter what it took.

Ultimately after a few years I ended up meditating ceaselessly until I attained amazing control over my emotions. Pain was not even part of my world anymore for many months; however, I was not careful one day and was smitten by a beauty so hard and with such a passion that I was knocked down from my state of complacency. Having gotten back my passion I realized how "dead" I had been without it, and would never again trade it for "self satisfaction".

Now having the mental discipline I learned through meditation I experience emotions even stronger than before, but in a sense I think I realize now that without them we are nothing but ghosts. We should not be slaves to emotion, but we should not eradicate them either. Sure, the nothingness of society will not change and I am forever trapped in a meaningless existence, but for me it has meaning, even if I cannot share that meaning with another. The meaning is the experience of feeling itself. It is the one thing I have always had that is real. I can express it through music and art. This is all there is to me. Knowledge and art, and the love of something that I can never have.

I have no fear of death or tragedy. I simply "feel" my way through each day, no matter how miserable and lonely it may be. I prefer being alone with nature and the great mystery than oblivious and in the company of robots. In the end, I think the meaning of life is to find ourselves through all of experience. To look within. Something I have always known.

That came out all in a splatter with minimal time, so I hope it made sense.

Wow Sloth I didn't know that you had experienced such a thing and top that off you were such a deep thinker. I won't go and make a huge post but I will say that what you have said is a question that has been on my mind for the longest time.

Originally Posted by Never

It was a terrible feeling to know that you did not belong anywhere and that no one would understand it.

That's not a rare experience, such feelings and thoughts are provoked by strong sadness or a feeling of helplessness that develop for various reason. Probably you failed to find a job you'd really like or something else. But that doesn't mean you really "don't belong".

I prefer being alone with nature and the great mystery than oblivious and in the company of robots. In the end, I think the meaning of life is to find ourselves through all of experience. To look within. Something I have always known.

I'm sure you haven't ceased to be a robot completely, too, so it makes no sense to feel bad about others. I can only guess, but judging by all you wrote before I can say that what you feel is actually well-covered loneliness and a feeling that you don't fit it, and the robot thing is an attempt to hide is from yourself.

"To look within" is certainly not the meaning of life... We aren't autistic, this world was given to us. Or rather, we happened to get born inside of the world, not independant of it. We don't wander in our minds, we LIVE in the actual world! By concentrating solely on your own self and searching for "meaning" there you're overlookinng everything else. I think this is a form of hiding, to concentrate on your own self and ignore everything else.

That's not a rare experience, such feelings and thoughts are provoked by strong sadness or a feeling of helplessness that develop for various reason. Probably you failed to find a job you'd really like or something else. But that doesn't mean you really "don't belong".

I understand where you get this conclusion, but in the case above it was a purely logical deduction and not based on depression. It took quite a bit of analysis. I realized that I could never find happiness in careers or any such living where I had to follow the orders of another or work a 40 hour per week "schedule". My freedom means way too much to me. I had systematically examined every possibility I could imagine. Nothing fit the bill. The ideal living for me is not possible in this age where all land is owned. My point was that in society I do not fit into one of their "roles" they have set up for me.

It is the same for your second paragraph. While I do understand why you would come to such a conclusion, again it is logical deduction on my part. Perhaps there is a very small chance that I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that I cannot be happy in this world of industy and advertising. I can exist in it as surely as I am using this computer, but it does nothing for me compared to the tranquillity experienced when things are stripped down to basics. Yes, being an isolated individual obviously has it's downsides, and that is the source of my unhappiness, but the point is that there is no cure for this in the city. I cannot feel connected with others when they are not connected with themselves in at least in a minor way. This is not to say that all people are mindless robots, it is just an example of the ratio here. Since the dawn of time the majority have been led by ideas constructed to control them.

In my lifetime I have met 3 people who were very free of mind and unafraid of being a "failure" in society's eyes. Three. Three people I will never forget, mind you.