Thread: sloth goes insane. (Please read)

Wow dude.......

Thanks for posting this...you know, we have alot in common. I reached the same conclusion about life as you did, just a different way. But you are right: for some reason, humans always want to find purpose in life, meaning etc. And if they can't find a purpose, they get depressed and philosophical, even suicidal. But there's no reason for that. I think the fact that we exist, and nothing more, is inherently neutral. It's not a bad thing or a good thing, so since we have free will, why not make it a GOOD thing and have a ball while we're here. You are right, it is less selfish to think this way, rather than be all "WHY ARE WE HERE cry cry cry."

So bravo to you dude, I'm glad you were able to reach the place you are in now, even if you had to go a bit nuts on the way. You know, the cow chasing bit made me laugh...I'm still picturing you with a stick, chasing that poor thing. Do you remember why you were doing it? I just gotta know.

Peace and love my friend
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

Wow.
Just, wow..... I don't understand. Why? How could this "lump" grow into something like that? I've asked myself that question a few times, but I never considered, well.... Going nuts. Anyway, as Ophilia said, bravo to you for getting past this and reaching peace. I doubt many others could have gotten past that, myself included.

Originally posted by sloth
What is the meaning of life?

I enjoy this meaningless life, while helping others to enjoy it.

This is, I think, both the beginning and end of your conundrum. I think these lines are representation of both the most enigmatic question ever asked, and the most elusive answer ever sought, although it is an answer that stares most of straight in the face while at the same time remaining invisible, like the truths many of us don't see about ourselves when we look in the mirror each day.

I, personally, have never struggled with the question of "Why are we here?" or even "What is the meaning of life?" But I've heard of the maddening pursuits of those answers more than enough times to wonder about them from an empathetic point of view.

But I think, Sloth, that you've found the answer to the questions that so drove you to "insanity." (I only use quotations because insanity is relative, of course.) One thing that makes me think this is that the latter line in the box I quoted you on is basically the philosophy I've had on life since as far back as I can remember. I have never seen any evidence of us actually having a purpose. Meaning, itself, is relative. Assuming there is a creator, would his "reason" for creating us have to have meaning? If it has meaning, is it only one meaning? Whether it has meaning or not, would he want us to spend our lifetimes looking for the meaning that he did not place in front of us?

I think we have to search for meaning relative to the whole of human experience, as we know it. To set our sights on meaning that is, as of yet, outside our scale of experience (ie; set by a divine presence with a completely different perception of "being" than we have) is to invite a great snare of uncertainty that can tighten around our necks with each and every twist of information adding to the complexity of the problem, and we all know that there is no shortage of that.

Many say that love is the answer to everything. This can be interpreted as many things, but most fundamentally, it is harmonious coexistence. It is perceiving another (or all else) as no less than equal and deservant (sp) of the same pursuit of contentment as we would seek for ourselves. Love (analogous to, but not synonymous with the One-One relationship with our "significant other") is the ability to except all as an extention of yourself, and yourself as but an extention of all else...it is to "enjoy this meaningless life, while helping others enjoy it" as you so adequately put.

The meaning of life, on an individual level, is relative. You may find a different answer from every human that you ask. Perhaps it is this myriad of "meanings" that make up the True Meaning of life. One that cannot be broken down into an individual "answer," but is decyphered as the whole of those pursuits of individual "meaning." To understand your own goals, your own loves, your own reasons for enjoying this meaningless life, while respecting and, indeed, encouraging the pursuits of the "meanings" of the lives of others, is perhaps the very "meaning" of life, in itself.

Thank you guys so much. I appreciate the support.

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OpheliaBlue)</div>

the cow chasing bit made me laugh...I'm still picturing you with a stick, chasing that poor thing. Do you remember why you were doing it? I just gotta know.
[/b]

I had the full intention of killing it, and eating it.

<!--QuoteBegin-FreshBrains
Wow.
Just, wow..... I don't understand. Why? How could this "lump" grow into something like that? I've asked myself that question a few times, but I never considered, well.... Going nuts. .

Wow, Brains. Thanks for reading.
To this day, I have no idea what this feeling was, but it was intolerable. I began feeling it when she left me. In the end, I think that is what it was all about... a broken heart.
And I never CONSIDERED going insane. I didn't know that there was anything wrong with me. I thought I was onto something; that I was right. Everybody else was completely insane. The funny thing is, everything made more sense to me than they ever had, or have since.

Originally posted by sloth


...After a year the lump had finally overtaken my head... and ... The only thing I could think now was “What?”

-sloth

Wow!

Decades ago I read a Zen Book... I think Huang Po... and it discussed the Doubt Sensation, described as something of a lump in the head.

What you had was the Zen Doubt Sensation.

And your life style was most admirably that of a really good Monk.

Yes, modern Western Psychiatry was able to convince you soon enough that it was pathological.

I myself have cultivated some small degree of Doubt Sensation -- a bit of a lump in my head. But I've never been quite the Monk you were. Going to work, talking to people, and finding meaning in all of life's little details has not been a problem for me. And so it is that I will never have the Satori Experience that comes to those who take it to the limit.

Jeepers, wonder how close you got.

You know, that Lump would have eventually broken up into a Field of Absolute Clarity. Satori!

Anyway, it was a fascinating story. thank you.

Its good to know that Huang Po was really talking about something.

WOWZA
so you just lived out in the wilderness for a while
WOW

very interesting story, sloth. i've often wondered what it would be like to just live off of the land for an extended period of time. i doubt i'll ever have the experience, though.

If nothing truly matters, then the fact that nothing matters cannot be an exception. So, if nothing matters, then the fact that nothing matters does not matter either.[/b]

and that is the key to life. the meaning of life, if it has one, is unimportant. who cares if it has a meaning, or why we are here? simply enjoy life and try to improve the quality thereof for yourself and others!

i was talking with my wife the other night about religious fanatics who base all of their actions on the goal of getting into heaven. i feel that trying to get into heaven is, in itself, a rather selfish goal. but that's not the point. the point is that i really don't understand why people base their life on the uncertain possibility of what might happen after death. death is unimportant. whatever is after death is unimportant. life should not be based on death; life should be based on life.

Originally posted by sloth
Wow. Somehow, I knew that you would give me a different perspective than I had. Again, at the time, everything made more sense to me than it ever had before, even though I was still filled with a paradoxial question. This paradoxial question was so ... Uhh.. Paradoxial... that I couldn't put it into words. I think the closest thing I could determine, maybe, is that I was questioning the concept of concept. The only way I could describe the question to myself was 'What?' or, thinking back now, sometimes I would think, 'What is it?' But I couldn't quite figure out what IT was, because that was the question. I couldn't figure out what I was trying to figure out, because I was trying to figure out the concept of something, and I didn't know what that something was.
Way to vague to explain, and I had no clues.. nothing to go on. Perhaps that is why I never got anywhere. My thoughts got to the point of repeating themselves, in a cycle, repetitavely, but then it went PAST that point, until my brain was thinking one concept, not repeatively, but continuously. And I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THE CONCEPT WAS!

With your permission, I would like to go ahead and put the conversation on the post.

I had considered the thought that maybe I was thinking like a monk, merely based on the fact that I had a lot in common with how they lived. But I had no means of learning whether this was true or not. It's not like I could have used a tree to google it.
This lump was a PHYSICAL feeling. It wasn't just a sensation, or a thought.. It felt EXACTLY like if something was inside my skull, and was slowly smothering my brain from back to front, like a liquid. The only reason I knew it was mental, and not something physically wrong with my brain was because WITH it came an uncomfortable feeling of question and wonder.
I did have everything figured out though, at least the way that I saw it, and the amazing part is that I pretty much remember it all.
I knew why some babies are still-born, while others grow up in luxury. I knew why people became jealous. I knew what it was to be PURELY GOOD through and through, and I was... For a brief time, I was a pure soul, INCAPABLE of doing anything wrong. I was so clear about everything in the universe, except this last concept, and it was the worst question of all... The question that is undefined. The question that questions itself...

Another interesting story: During the beginning of this time, before the year before this story started I had a puppy. I kept good care of it. Even though I didn't eat, he did. I spent morning, noon, and night with this puppy. I woke up with him, and I went to bed with him. I spent 24 hours a day for one year with this puppy. The purpose was because I wanted to learn how to communicate with animals... I mean REALLY communicate, and I did. He taught me.
Kitty was a half-huskee, half-wolf pup. I didn't teach him commands. I just spoke to him. I would talk to him all day. I talked to him about everything, using body language, facial expressions, and hand gestures. At first he just ignored me. But a lot sooner than I expected (within the first two weeks) he began listening. Instead of continuing to do whatever it was he was doing, as he did at first, he would stop, and sit in front of me, and just stare, as I spoke in full paragraphs to him. I would tell him about whatever. I didn't think the subject mattered at the beginning, because I think he was still learning to join words and phrases. He would stare for hours. His ears perked up, and his tail remained silent.
Finally, after about a couple of months of this, I began to put him to the test. I would require that HE communicate with ME. I didn't care what he had to do to get an idea or concept across, as long as he gave me some hint as to what he was trying to convey. I didn't require him to speak on my terms. I allowed him to do whatever he thought would make me understand. I think this made the experiment more pure anyway. Parrots can IMITATE communication. I wanted to make sure that what I was really seeing from him was an attempt to convey logical ideas.

So, in a grueling two days, in what some would call a cruel experiment, I asked him if he wanted food, or I would ask him if he was hungry. I gave him no food unless he could SOMEHOW convey to me that he wanted it. (Water was given freely, of course.) I left the bag of dog food out, and his food dish out, so that he had props and tools at his disposal.
I think it took him a little while to realize what I wanted from him. Perhaps he had to learn the concept of a question, but after about a day or so, when I asked him if he was hungry, he nodded his head. Of all things, he god damned nodded his head! I thought it was coincidence at first, but I gave him the food. I could not believe that he had actually answered me, on HUMAN terms. Once I thought back, many times while communicating him, I used to nod my head with any affirmation in general. Perhaps he picked up on this.
That day was a gateway. He discovered the concept of question, and that I expected (or allowed) him to communicate with me as well. This sparked an avalanche of ideas that we both sent to one another.
I began to ask him other things, in full sentences, in conversational form. I was VERY CAREFUL not to emphasize any one word, or speak to him in any manner that was not consistent with how I would speak to a human. I didn't speak to him as if he was a child. I didn't even limit the variety of words I used! I wanted to REALLY KNOW if this could be done.
Kitty and I began to have conversations. They were very simple conversations, but they were complete. They would last for good solid segments, and would usually remain on topic. He communicated with gestures and body language. He only barked as emphasis. Usually when he was frustrated. If he was trying to tell me something, and I didn't understand, he would repeat the gesture he had made, and bark. Over time, I actually began adapting his gestures, as a sign of faith to him... to let him know that there was a connection there, that I did understand him, and that I respected him as an equally significant being, EVEN THOUGH I was the head of our little 'wolf pack'. Wolves need that to be happy anyway.
One time he swallowed a chicken bone before I could stop him. He looked up at me with a big grin on his face, and wagged his tail. I got terribly worried, and I looked at him, horrified. This was a big chicken bone lol. When I did this, he immediately stopped wagging his tail, sat down, and the smile left his face, and I SAW reaction on his face. I saw the exact point when his face went from completely happy, to 'Oh no!' He knew that I was worried.
Kitty was ABSOLUTELY and UTTERLY ASTONISHING to me.
I believe that I taught him one other concept... Love.
I have no way of truly knowing this. How does a dog convey love, and not just affection? By the end I did love this dog. Very few animals have had a place like that in my heart. I would tell him, all the time, that I loved him. I would reinforce this concept in every way that I knew how. I carefully avoided REWARDING him when I said this. I wanted him to know at least that it was different. I would hold him, or look deep into his eyes when I told him this.
He never conveyed anything back to me, but just perhaps this was his way of telling me, because when I told him this, and then held him, he didn't do anything. He just layed there, or stood there, looking at me. Almost every other thing I said, after a while, was met with some sort of response, even if it was the gesture that I had learned meant that he didn't understand. (He would cock his head to convey confusion/interest. Then he would look down just a little, with a little nod, and sometimes lick his lips which was a way of urging me or expecting me to do something. In these cases he wanted me to repeat or explain what I had said.)
It's nice to believe it's possible that he knew love.

Anyway, I don't have a good ending to this story. My ex-girlfriend stole him when she left. Unfortunately I had already fed him raw, bloody meat. I gave it to him all the time. I wasn't going to take that away. He was a wolf. His instincts told him to eat raw meat, and I knew that. Also, a wolf only bonds with one human, if that. After she took him, he quickly turned on her, threatening to attack every time he saw her, and then ran away, to live in the wild.
I miss him. Kitty and I had great times staying up late and drinking beer together. He loved beer, and he loved getting drunk, but he hated pot. Maybe he just didn't like the smoke. I'm not sure.

Anyway, thank you for your ear, once again.

-sloth

Oh, you still must have that 'lump' of a Doubt Sensation, don't you? You describe it very well. There are ways of spreading it into the rest of the body.

My old Kundalini Guri taught me about The Gate... it wasn't in any of his books or official initiations... this one he was keeping kind of secret. Anyway, what you do is you find that swivel point in your head, where the spine connects up into the brain... its a swivel joint. It roughly corresponds to the back of the roof of the mouth, up above and behind the pallet. You can point your tongue back and up at it. Then you contemplate into that Swivel Point. At first it will seem large, about the size of a golf ball or ping pong ball. But keep concentrating on going further inward into it. It is like peeling an onion, layer after layer and the onion gets smaller. After a minute or two you will get to the small pea size, or BB size nucleus of it. You will know it because it will oscillate -- swing around and back and forth. This is The Gate. This Doubt Sensation can strengthen at this point, bringing up more energy substance from the body, or you can have the Sensation go down into the body. Furthermore, once this Gate is 'unlocked' you will be able to extend that lump up and over your head.

This may seem impossible, but try it. You will be able to easily get the Lump over your head by a good 18 inches or 2 feet -- a half a meter. Often it is easy to spin it like a propeller or fan. You have seen the Tibetan Buddhist paintings of their Buddhas, Boddhisattvas and illustrious Monks from the past, and how they have these elaborate auras extending beyond their head. Well, these are visualized 'lump' Doubt Sensations.

Regarding Animals. I keep cats. I have 4 indoor cats. And I maintain... used to maintain two feral cat feeding stations, but I have consolidated them into one Feeding Station, and have something akin to a morning and evening parade of cats as I lead the invasion of Feeding Station One cats into what used to be exclusive Feeding Station Two territory. I too have notice communication with animals. Cats will stare confused for the first several weeks of attempted communication and then they will understand.... mostly.

Yes, and you were betrayed by a woman. Good. You have found the Real Reason why most monks are celebate. Women can't be trusted. Yoking one's happiness to a woman is always something of a fool's errand. Particularly in this day and age when every girl must certainly have her own agenda, and should have their own agenda. It is great for them as individuals. But it excludes them from any proximation to viable relationship.

As you have discovered -- if you want a best friend...Get a dog!... or some cats.

yes, one can socialize with women, but after a few betrayals, then one can maintain the correct attitude with them, which is to be carefree, unattached, and in command of the situtation. Women will always want to have the Power in a Relationship, that is, they will want you to be more in love then they themselves, so that they will be the ones to make the rules and the conditions. A wise man never falls for that, and with the first "rule" or "condition" will laugh and go for the door. When she says "We need to talk", the wise man will reply "If we need to talk, then there's nothing left to say", and get up and get going. Yes, while women would make great slaves if they could ever be subdued, they make horrible and degrading masters. I think this of every 'happily' married man -- that they are mere shadows of their intended Selves -- broken and effeminitized. Sissies!

sloth did not go insane. I think you figured out life, sloth. To me, life is a learning ground. More or less, we are here to realize all of our material attractions are unhealthy, while spiritual attractions are healthy.

Take a look at Buddha. He started out as a prince, and was going to be a king, possibly king of all kings. He could have had all the gold he wanted. After having a dream showing him in his grave, he realized that life is temporary, to make the best of it. He abandoned his current life and walked away from royalty.

I do think the point of life is to remove all dependencies. No needing a cell phone, a girlfriend, a house, et cetera. You were on your way. Of course, food is a little tougher. However, I do think sexuality is the fastest way to spirituality, so if you get the right girl, that might be a different story.

sloth, a book I recently started reading (recommended to me by my best friend) kind of falls along the same lines of your way of thinking (and mine too). If you can find solice in knowing you aren't the first nor the last that has gone through this way of thinking, you should give the book a read. However, If you still are in that mindset in any way; be forewarned, that it has a way of bringing back those feelings pretty strongly...

The book is 'Straw Dogs Thoughts On Humans And Other Animals' by John Gray.


Heres a few excerpts (in order) from the foreward to give you an idea:

"Straw Dogs is an attack on the unthinking beliefs of thinking people...Darwin has shown that we are animals; but- as humanists never tire of preaching- how we live is 'up to us'. Unlike any other animal, we are told, we are free to live as we choose. Yet the idea of free will does not come from science. Its origins are in religion- not just any religion, but the Christian faith against which humanists rail so obsessively...Humanism is not science, but religion- the post-Christian faith that humans can make a world better than any in which they have so far lived. In pre-Christian Europe it was taken for granted that the future would be like the past. Knowledge and invention might advance, but ethics would remain much the same. History was a series of cycles, with no overall meaning...Science increases human power- and magnifies the flaws in human nature. It enables us to live longer and have higher living standards than in the past. At the same time it allows us to wreak destructions- on each other and the Earth- on a larger scale than ever before. The idea of progress rests on the belief that the growth of knowledge and the advance of the species go together- if not now, then in the long run...If the hope of progress is an illusion, how- it will be asked- are we to live? The question assumes that humans can live well only if they believe they have the power to remake the world. Yet most humans who have ever lived have not believed this- and a great many have had happy lives...Humans cannot save the world, but this is no reason for despair. It does not need saving. Happily, humans will never live in a world of their own making."



PS. Leo, nice post about the women part. I had a good laugh with my friend about that.

Originally posted by Distant Clone


Take a look at Buddha. He started out as a prince, and was going to be a king, possibly king of all kings. He could have had all the gold he wanted. After having a dream showing him in his grave, he realized that life is temporary, to make the best of it. He abandoned his current life and walked away from royalty.

Oh Poo! Gautama was a minor Raj in a land of a Hundred Thousand Rajs. Every Farmer that kept a donkey and two Slaves set himself up as King of his own 40 Acres.

And then one can hardly compare the phoney rebellion of Gautama Buddha with the sincere ascetic expression that came spontaneously from Sloth. Everything Buddha did was distinguished by its forced effort. he treated his Spirituality like a big hobby, and when nothing worked for him, because of his blatant insinserity, then what he did was to preach against it, and betray the very traditions that he supposed failed him.

His enlightenment was a Pretense. he went running off to the Cities to preach to Wealthy Sponsors that Traditional Religion with its Ceremonies, Priests, Sacrifices and Holy Men, and the Traditions of Asceticism and Spirituality were all some kind of a waste. he set up a nihilistic set of apathetic doctrines that could justify his new clientel in snubbing their Priests. In this sense Buddhism would fracture the Political Integrity of India and leave it open to the subsequent Islamic Invasions, from which India continues to suffer today. Thank you Guatama.

However, if one follows the History of Buddhism, one will find that Truly Spiritual People could not bear to tolerate such garbage being spread around the entire Sub Continent, and so the Doctrines were brought back in line with True Religion and the outcome was Mahayana Buddhism which is distinguishable from the base and nihilistic buddhism by the Doctrines of Bodhisattvaism -- that Suffering was not to be escaped by Relieved. The Carelessness of Gautama's Buddhism was replaced with the Higher Moral Concerns of Followers that were far far better then their Master ever was.

What a story.
This was very enlightening sloth. Thank you.
You have liberated yourself.
~ I am not at that point but I have hope that I will someday liberate my ego from whatever is holding it back.
I feel stories like these make me one step closer to that point. again, thank you.

[quote]What a story.
This was very enlightening sloth. Thank you.
You have liberated yourself.
~ I am not at that point but I have hope that I will someday liberate my ego from whatever is holding it back.
I feel stories like these make me one step closer to that point. again, thank you.

Howetzer, are you so sure?

Read it again. As much as I have pursued Spirituality all of my life, and while I can appreciate the significance of what happened to Sloth (even arguing that his attainment far exceeds anything that Big Fraud Gautama Buddha had pretended to), still, would you honestly wish to trade position with him. Wasn't it something of a break down?

Liberation would be nice, but the man was incapacitated. Sure, he was not laying in bed moaning and groaning in pain, but he was not off to work either. And his Relationships were suffering. I'm sure his Dog Stealing Girlfriend could have something to say in her own defense (for instance... while he would be sitting after after hour, druelling down by the riverbed, who'd be feeding this poor dog of his?)

Look at what he was saying. He saw no value in anything. That IS liberation, isn't it?

Yes, up in the Starry Universe, amidst Infinity and Eternity, the things of the World count as meaningless. But when we are alive and in the Community, do we really want that for anybody. Would we want that for ourselves?

What Sloth found was The Stoic Ideal. But this Stoic Ideal dates to before Christ. Every Higher Religion has discovered that this Stoic Ideal is something of a dead end. Society would clog up with too many of these "Sloths". Even the Monasteries would cease to function if too many Sloths wondered of the ultimate value of planting their gardens and cooking the meals. The Stoic Doctrine of the Original Buddha was replaced by the Moral Doctrines of the Mahayana Boddhisattvas. Christ taught Love and the Golden Rule. He left "Nothing Means Anything" to the Roman Senate... a bunch of Stoics who lost their leading edge the more they succeeded in their Stoicism. The more they gained in the Way of Sloth, the more they lost their hold on Society, and Society on itself.

As much as we can admire Sloth, it should appear obvious that his condition is both pathological and dysfunctional. yes, what an interesting phenomena, but we should not wish it on our worst enemy, let alone upon ourselves.

Leo,
Note that I said his story brings me closer to a possible understading in my head. If you are implying that I would wish to relive the events that led him to his revelation, then no, by no means.
But the few who do or can actually liberate themselves, I am sure each have their own specific path that they had to take.
I was proposing to be in is current situation of liberation.
What path will get me there, if any... I do not know. I do hope, as you pointed out that it would not be as difficult as Sloth's unfortunate string of events.

[quote]Leo,
Note that I said his story brings me closer to a possible understading in my head. If you are implying that I would wish to relive the events that led him to his revelation, then no, by no means.
But the few who do or can actually liberate themselves, I am sure each have their own specific path that they had to take.
I was proposing to be in is current situation of liberation.
What path will get me there, if any... I do not know. I do hope, as you pointed out that it would not be as difficult as Sloth's unfortunate string of events.


Actually, it is understood to always be about as messy as it is for Sloth.

In fact, in India, mothers pray earnestly to their Household Gods and Goddesses, that their children will not be 'cursed' with Liberation.

When you think about it for a moment it should come as no surprise that those who are approaching Liberation should begin to become irresponsible and unreliable. Duh!? Liberation means that one is no longer bothered by the relative importance of worldly things. Well, that does not exactly define a friend that one can count upon, does it? Doesn't describe a good family bread-winner either. And the Roman Empire fell after it had one too many Emperors like that.

So, for all the Good Public Relations that being Liberated gets, still, it is probably better to be a Caring Individual (yes, you are all wondering how that arrogant prick Leo can keep a straight face while talking about being a 'caring individual', but remember that this is speculative philosophy and that I am using my imagination).

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

Actually, it is understood to always be about as messy as it is for Sloth.
In fact, in India, mothers pray earnestly to their Household Gods and Goddesses, that their children will not be 'cursed' with Liberation.

When you think about it for a moment it should come as no surprise that those who are approaching Liberation should begin to become irresponsible and unreliable. Duh!? Liberation means that one is no longer bothered by the relative importance of worldly things. Well, that does not exactly define a friend that one can count upon, does it? Doesn't describe a good family bread-winner either. And the Roman Empire fell after it had one too many Emperors like that.

So, for all the Good Public Relations that being Liberated gets, still, it is probably better to be a Caring Individual (yes, you are all wondering how that arrogant prick Leo can keep a straight face while talking about being a 'caring individual', but remember that this is speculative philosophy and that I am using my imagination).[/b]

I beg to differ with you on this Leo!!
Liberation of your egoic self can be an unselfish act. You must integrate an awareness with this.
More times than not, looking from the outside a person who has liberated themselves may look irresponsible or unreliable. This should be no surprise coming from a vantage point from an individual who is caught up in what is worldly. Who is blind. Who is scared of the truth.
You speak of liberation as an anarchy or abandonment of your conscience of sorts. I View this as quite the opposite. It is an unobstructed view of yourself and the world around you.
Liberation does not mean you abandoned your values as you describe. Liberation is freedom. An awareness of priorities and an unambiguous view of your life.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo
Liberation means that one is no longer bothered by the relative importance of worldly things

And this does not separate you from public relations? I find that a very contradictory statement.

zounds! thanks for sharing sloth

strangely enough, i know exactly what "lump" you speak of (at least i believe so). one began to grow in myself some years back. i too, began to question everything, including whether eating was neccessary...withdrew into a shell.

my solitude was internal though (i was still working and scraping by on auto-pilot most days), and depression played a large role in it. the lump seemed to shrink a tad if i was intoxicated in some way, and so 5 years of heavy substance abuse managed to quell rapid growth. fairly sure its still creeping along somewhere in the back...dormant.

if you could answer a couple questions, that'd be grand

did you find that you talked to yourself after some time alone?
do you still feel the lump at all?

anyways, thanks again for sharing...i am certain that the lump in my own head will one day lead me into the "wilderness", haha.i suppose i'm just trying to arrange things in such a way that i never have to return unless i choose to.

what do you think would have happened if you'd had a basic, continuous food supply, hadn't become physically weak to any large degree, and hadn't been "rescued" by friends? after another year, let's say....

[quote]


I beg to differ with you on this Leo!!
Liberation of your egoic self can be an unselfish act. You must integrate an awareness with this.
More times than not, looking from the outside a person who has liberated themselves may look irresponsible or unreliable. This should be no surprise coming from a vantage point from an individual who is caught up in what is worldly. Who is blind. Who is scared of the truth.
You speak of liberation as an anarchy or abandonment of your conscience of sorts. I View this as quite the opposite. It is an unobstructed view of yourself and the world around you.
Liberation does not mean you abandoned your values as you describe. Liberation is freedom. An awareness of priorities and an unambiguous view of your life.





Yes, there seems to be two different Versions of Liberation -- the State of Psychological Autism of those who no longer care about anything, not Society, not Family, not Food, Shelter, not even Hygiene. A Nasty and Burdensome Liberation.

Then there is the Liberation of the Boddhisattvas. But it is not really a Liberation, is it? One is simply trading Duties -- one exchanges Selfish Duties for Selfless Duties. One rededicates One's Self from one's own Service to the Service of Others.

What I think is happening is that people fell in love with the term Liberation and do not want to abandon it. People traditionally use the term Liberation to be expressive of one of these Highest Spiritual Goals and don't want to give it up, even though it describes a careless any-social hermit covered in grime and feces.

Perhaps those who follow in the Way of the Boddhisattvas should rather refer to Enlightenment than Liberation.

I recall that Sri Aurobindo was reluctant to speak of 'Liberation' as being even close to a desired spiritual condition and saw much that was much higher than that. Indeed, Aurobindo who ordinarily admired Vivekananda, wondered that he could use the term Liberation so often as though it were something to be desired. But then one needs to remember that Vivekananda died young. He had gone off by himself, and, yes, probably attained to his liberation. From there, missing meals and rotting in his own filth, it probably aggrevated health problems already apparent from all the exhausting activities he had been engaged in while he had still been trying to be useful. Liberation probably killed him young. I always wonder that I have been able to live longer than Vivekananda. But I have not been Liberated.

First, I want to thank all of you for your posts regarding this matter. Even though I have been too busy to post back on them, they have given me a lot to think about the last few days. So much, in fact, that I find that I cannot keep my mind off of the events that transpired. You guys have made me look at them in a new light. Perhaps I did not go crazy. Maybe sanity is just a different way of looking at things.
Of course, this is not a new concept for me, but it is the first time it has applied to me before.

It is true. This process was miserable. Fortunately, I didn't care. I would advise against anybody else going through it though. It's hard to explain, but even though I didn't care, it was still miserable. I didn't care that the bugs ate me. I didn't care that I ate the bugs. I didn'c care about anything, but my body was still physically miserable.

Howetzer, you described it as freedom. You are right on most of what you say, but this is not true. While the end result is perhaps beautiful, the process was quite the opposite from freedom. Sure, I was free to do whatever I wanted, but I didn't care to do it. So, was I really free?

Leo. You mentioned this Liberation of the Boddhisattvas. This sounds very similar to what I went through because I never stopped doing for other people. I merely stopped gaining pleasure from it.
I have always done anything I could for anyone else, and this did not change when I went through this period. But, this was not because I thought it mattered, as this Liberation of the Boddhisattvas concept intails, but because of a conflicting belief that I still hold today.
I know nothing. I could not deny that, and so, knowing nothing, I could not say, for sure, that everything was meaningless. Therefore, I chose not to cease doing good things for other people.

I lowered my rent, on a brand new three bedroom, two bath home, down to 200 dollars a month. Later, I stopped going to collect the rent altogether. This lead to me actually losing the home. That's another story altogether.
I helped my friend dig a fifty foot long trench, so that he could lay a new water line.
I gave five people places to stay, within my house, while I was out in the woods. I didn't figure I would be using the house. This is seperate from the family in my rental home, who lived there for free.
Even though things didn't matter to me, or seemed to me that they didn't matter, I couldn't deny the POSSIBILITY that they might matter to someone else, or that they did matter, and I just didn't know.

You guys still reading?

So, I don't think this Liberation of the Boddhisattvas idea describes it fully. Could there be a hybrid of the two, Leo?
Please tell me more. I'm fascinated now. lol

Although I tried hard to do things for other people, I DID become worthless, as you said, Leo. Even though I was willing to give anything for my friends, eventually, I had nothing left to give. I gave away all my useable, desireable possessions, and I had long sense lost any need to 'own' anything. All that I kept with me was a bottle of water and cigarettes, but I would run out of these things quite frequently, and not care. So, I had nothing to give. Even physical labor was out of the question when it had gotten to the point where I was physically weak. It was like I was tired all the time, and no matter how much I slept, I was never energetic. I was starving to death.

Thank you again, for your thoughts guys. You all have been so enlightening. Sure, I may have discovered something deep, but it took you guys to tell me what it was I had discovered.

-sloth

Dear Sloth,

Yes, I did keep reading.

This is actually very fascinating stuff. When I was in the Peace Corps, one of the guys said that the West is not Culturally capable of producing a Realized Being. Well, boy, was he wrong. You are actually a very good case study.

Oh, about the Blend of Autistic Liberation with Boddhisattva Liberation. Actually, I always thought the Boddhisattva Idea a sort of a retreat from that total Brink of Actual Liberation -- that Vast Pit of Blasse Carelessness that you fell into.

But yes, your Concern for Other People was in fact the Boddhisattva Ideal. Actually, in every way this would fully qualify you for Sainthood. When you cared about absolutely nothing else, you still cared about other people. Wow! Of course, after awhile you was too low energy to do much about it, but your heart was in the Right Place. when the Day of Judgment rolls up, well, you have nothing to worry about -- you've already grabbed that big Brass Ring whether you realize it not. You've a good heart.

But the rest of Uncomplaining Misery.

What is the use of such a Psychological State. I have suspicion that such Liberation is encouraged as a Money Saving Device in Large Institutions. Monasteries. You know, in the Orient and I suspect everywhere else, Monasteries were not so much for Voluntary Monks but for Orphans... and 'Foundlings'. Oh, a 'foundling' is a baby that a young embarrassed girl can not publically admit too. Young ladies would disappear for a few months and then reappear explaining that they were sick and are now better, and the Monastery would have a new baby Monk. Anyway, with funds at an absolute minimum then the Ideal state of Mind for a Monk would be that whereby there would be no desire for any specific food, or comfort, or any form of entertainment. Keep still, stop eating and don't bother anybody. When a Monk could do that Perfectly --- Voila! Liberation. But it doesn't seem very happy.

So, frankly, SCREW Liberation.

But in the Sanskrit Traditions we hear about Bliss -- ANANDA. Ecstacy, Rapture... Light and Love. Now that sounds pretty cool, huh.

Now, I have not heard of anybody hitting a Permanent Fix of ANANDA yet. but during some of these Spiritual Visions, and Dream Visions of White Light and Angels and such, there have been Moments of ANANDA that come with a fairly extensive After Glow. I've had the After Glow of ANANDA Bliss Experiences that lasted into a day or two.

Oh, this accounts for the popularity of Drugs. They simulate, pretty well, the ANANDA Experience. ANANDA is ANANDA and I would be lying if I claimed that the Spiritual Variety was distinctively much more pleasant then the Pharmaceutical Variety.

Now, regarding ANANDA. It comes from either having so much Health that there is a superabundance of Blissful Energy. Or if the Body falls into illhealth and disintegrates so quickly that Blissful Energy is Released, then we might also have ANANDA. So, one can get ANANDA by both being healthy, and paradoxically, by fasting, but only occassionally. There must be Energy in the system in either case.

What is a good strategy for attaining Bliss. Well, bring up one's Baseline Energy Level. We all have mood swings. Most of the time we go along evenly, but there are up excursions and downward excursions. The higher our Baseline Level, the better our chances that the upward Excursions will break through that Bliss Threshold -- which may be a kind of Quantum Dynamic where just a small difference can touch off a completely transcendent Level. And with a higher baseline energy level, our lows are not as low as before.

So I would recommend being Healthy and Spiritual Whole.

Now, our Dreams are always sending us Messages and Guides. The Trend in all of these things is to bring our Baseline Energy Level Higher. A Spiritual Person is a Healthy Person. A Good Soul is a healthy Soul.

This ananda...
Is it a physical sensation, or mental. The time period just before the one that I have shared was absolutely blissful.
I have always said that all I want out of life is my land, a good woman, flowerbeds, friends, a puppy, and beer. For about one or two years of my life, I had all these things, and I could not have been happier. But I say that in a literal sense. I was so content, and absolutely amazed at everything. I would wake up every morning, and thank god. Then I would get up, and I would go look at things. That's what I did. I admired things. And that's what I called it. Every day, I was so happy to be alive, that I would walk around, admiring things, for twelve hours at a time. That is when I developed my true love for flowers, because I was able to watch them grow. I thanked god over and over again all day, every day, and I never asked him for anything. I wanted nothing more out of life. I could have set a billion dollars ablaze at that point. I walked around. I would look at the sky, and admired it. I would look at the ground... even the things people don't think about, like sticks. I would admire the sticks on the ground, and I saw the absolute beauty in them. I was so amazed by everything around me... as if I had just been born.

My girlfriend had cerebral palsey. She was cross-eyed, and walked with a limp. I only made about 400 dollars a month. I didn't have a car. My house needed serious repairs. I had no insurance, of any kind, no plan for the future, and my real estate taxes were more than I was able to pay. Amugst it all, I was far far happier and more content than I have ever been. I thanked god, and asked him not to take these things away from me.

Furthermore, I became the person who I had always wanted to be. I was very popular with just the right crowd. People came over all the time. It's not the popularity that I enjoyed. It was the crowd of good people that it brought. I was surrounded by my friends, all the time.
I became such a good person, doing whatever I could for other people. I was a hard worker, and I took pleasure from doing hard labor. I took pleasure from EVERY activity. I would work so hard. Sometimes, when it was hot, I would start to feel chills run up and down my body, over and over, because I was working so hard, in such grueling temperatures. I loved it.
People loved me. I would go into a room, and people would stop their conversation, and start one with me. When I spoke, groups of people would stop and listen. It's like people were fascinated by me.
I respected everyone who I thought deserved respect, and that's a lot more than most people think. I respected little children, and SHOWED them respect. I didn't talk to them like they were small children (aka STUPID) as most people do. I talked to them as if they were adults, and you'd be amazed how WELL they adapt to that. They IMMEDIATELY change THEIR behavior to match, and instantly become more mature, and civilized. LOL Amazing. Try it sometime. You'll see.
I respected older people, even more so. I WANTED to hear their stories, and their advice, and when they said, 'Now you listen here, youngin.' (or whatever they say lol) I was fascinated to hear what they had to say. I would always surprise people, especially older people. A teenager, 19, with manners and respect? Naah.
I respected people my age, in a different way. I had a particular relationship with my friends. 'Don't ask.' was my rule. If there was something that they wanted, that I had, I forbid them from asking for it. 'Don't waste my time' I said. I considered the phrase, 'Can I have a cigarette?' to be an insult. Are you suggesting that I might not give you a cigarette? Am I that big of an asshole? If you know I will, why are you wasting my time, by asking? People would take things right out of my shirt pocket. I still prefer this. This is why I had to choose my friends very wisely. None of this 'Thank you' shit either. I'm supposed to stop doing what I'm doing to tell someone that they are welcome, even though they are sitting in my home, drinking my coffee, smoking my cigarettes? If they weren't welcome, they'd be out on the street. I'd say, 'I'm calling the cops, you weirdo. Give me back my coffee cup.' LOL

There was nobody that I hated. There was nobody who hated me.

Now, this may sound like a post full of bragging, and maybe, in a way, it is. But I say, I am no longer this man. I long to be there again, and it is my goal, but I am not half the man I used to be. I have become lazy, spoiled, cinical, unpure, picky. I have lost the personality I once had. I can't make people laugh like I used to. Nobody listens to me with fascination... well you guys listen to me, but not like people used to.
This isn't one of those retrospect things either. I knew, at the time, that everything was exactly as I wanted it, and I was TERRIFIED that something might change everything, and of course it did. I thanked god for everthing around me.

Anyway, if there is a heaven, it must be similar. Could this be related to what you are referring to? You say that this afterglow only lasts for a few days.. The contentment that I had lasted for about a year and a half, so it is most likely different, but I ask, just in case.. Just maybe. You know?

Is this ananda a physical feeling, because if so, I am way off. None of this was physical. I was just content. Very content and happy.

Thanks again for your time, Leo. You are a true thinker.
-sloth

Originally posted by Leo
Screw liberation

Why?
Just because the norm puts labels on everything in order to use it to their advantage liberation can be a state of awareness that is unconditioned. The labeling process is always taking ideals a reconstructing them.
"Words are meant to signify distinctions. As soon as Everything is Something, then the distinction is lost. Therefore it is when we list the attributes of anything, we can forego saying that it exists, as it is understood. "

My entire take on your journey sloth was not this freedom you went through it is the result you came to that matters. As describes in the Gospel, One has to lose oneself to find oneself. That is what happened to you it seems.
The process of awareness is not pretty by any means. Waking up to reality hurts. The process hurts.
Oddly enough the more complicated our questions become the more muddled up our decisions and life become. The answers seem to be much more simplistic that we make them.

I am uneducated in a lot of your thoughts Leo. But in the same manner I feel that the perils and opportunities of reality can show us much of the same things. Just pointed out in a different way.

Indeed, Howetzer, one doesn't have to go through all of this to realize what life is all about, I believe. Or, rather, to realize that we will never know what life is about, nor does it matter. One thing I have obtained is the freedom to think past this life. In a way, it is still a curse. I find people studying politics, and I think, 'Why waste your time learning about this life?' when I know good and well that this is the way to make money. But I wouldn't have it any other way.
I'm not against voting, but I didn't like any of the candidates that were up for election these last few years.
So, while everyone was out voting, I stayed at home. The only difference was, when I was done masterbating, I had a little something to show for it. They didn't.

Originally posted by sloth
The only difference was, when I was done masterbating, I had a little something to show for it. They didn't.

rofl