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    1. #26
      Member Dangeruss's Avatar
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      here's a link to that article I was talking about. Like what you see? I sure as hell hope not.
      http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us/30pas...nyt&emc=rss
      religious intoctrination at its finest!
      Courtney est ma reine. Et oui, je suis roi.

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    2. #27
      Duality TheUnknown's Avatar
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      I can't place myself in the spot of an atheist, it's not possible for me to try to see it from a non-Christian perspective when it comes to the mention of God on currency. However, I think it is absurd that people should be able to sue from being "offended" from such things. Hearing you say that you are annoyed about the mention of God in the national anthem does bring up a good point though. I can't say that it's right or wrong for the country to put that there.

      My feeling on the matter of religion in today's society is a complex one. As I said before, I'm for seperation of Church and State, but I don't think that having the State mention God is necessarilly a bad thing either. This is a really hard argument for me to take sides in and I faced it once on IRC about a year ago with people of varying beliefs. I had argued that the country is losing its sense of morals. The "atheist" claimed of course that there is no such thing as morals and the country should not force its beliefs down on others.

      Sure, religious indoctrination is a bitch. But I believe we need to find the balance between having a religion and not having one. Its hard to explain what I mean, but there should be some middle ground to stand on so that the non-believers do not offend the believers, and vice-versa.

      Oh well, I got distracted...
      Just keep moving…

    3. #28
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Most atheists are actually absolutely moral. We don't like Biblical morals (they get a bit fuzzy anyways), and we don't appreciate having set-in-stone moral beliefs enforced from a specific religion. Not just Christianity, we don't want Islamic or Jewish moral codes enforced on us either. Especially the Islamic morals--they're a bit on the extreme side.

      Anyway, my opinion on the separatjion of church and state bit is in my sig. When state gets involved with churches, or the other way around, bad things start happening. Too often the state has used religion as a rallying flag to coerce the public into doing what it wants. Look at Iran right now--they're a theocracy, pure and simple, based on Islamic beliefs. Now look at their president. Not a particularly nice guy. Supports terrorists, especially Hezbollah, he's working on nukes, and he's pretty oppressive of his own people. He just started a blog (weird for a chief of state to do that, but whatever). Here's a link: Iranian Blog. If it's not in English, click the little flags below the banner for a translation into English.
      Notice how often religion is played upon in that blog. It's almost hard to see anything but, "In God's name", "God willing", "God bless".

      That's why I firmly believe that the US government shouldn't even THINK about in any way messing with religion. It turns pretty nasty pretty quick often times.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    4. #29
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      Peregrinus's Avatar
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      Socially liberal. Fiscally responsible.

      I believe a government should protect and assist its people, not dictate how they should live their lives. I don&#39;t want the government in my phone lines or email box, sniffing through my library reports or credit records, in my bedroom or my doctor&#39;s office, or questioning my patriotism or my dissent. As long as I abide by the essential laws of my country of residence, I want the government out of my personal life. To quote Ben Franklin, “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

      On more specific issues:

      Abortion: It&#39;s a personal choice, and women who chose it will find a way regardless of its legality. The only thing banning abortion does is prevent the poor and those financially and emotionally unable to raise a child from safely ending an unwanted pregnancy, thereby bringing more unwanted children into a world already turned against them.

      Gay marriage: Marriage is a social contract which bestows upon those who enter into it certain financial and social rights which should be available to all people regardless of sexual preference.

      Gay adoption: Two loving, caring, and capable parents, regardless of their genitalia, can raise a child better than a foster system.

      Social programs: Absolutely necessary for a healthy, democratic society. But the current structure of our national social programs requires a serious restructuring. Let sociologists do the re-designs, as it&#39;s quite obvious given the current state of affairs that politicians are incapable of doing an effective job.

      Public education:
      Essential. But our current public education system is not only ineffective as the equalizer it was envisioned to be, but in fact exacerbates current inequalities within our society. Until the quality of education from preschool to high school is equal for all people, across all socio-economic stratifications, it will not fulfill its purpose.

      Gun ownership: As "V" said, "The people should not fear their government. The government should fear its people." I&#39;m all for it, although I believe more stringent background check procedures need to be in place and that fully automatic assault weapons should still be banned from private ownership.

      Taxes: I like roads and physical and social infrastructure, so I&#39;ll pay them without complaint as long as my money is spent efficiently and wisely. However, giving tax breaks to the wealthiest 1% of people at the expense of social programs that benefit both the majority and the neediest of citizens is not sound fiscal policy - it&#39;s a campaign strategy.
      “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
      - Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

      The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world's problems.
      - Mohandas Gandhi

    5. #30
      now what bitches shark!'s Avatar
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      "Most atheists are actually absolutely moral...."


      pfft...morality is baseless. fuck it.


      heh yah that religious iranian guy is as bad as that religious usa guy.

    6. #31
      Duality TheUnknown's Avatar
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      In my experiance, atheists are usually arrogant asses who claim to not have morals. Its nothing personal or anything, I just think that more people are agnostic and have some form of a moral structure. By that I mean, its really only the loud one who want to make trouble who call themselves atheist. Its a very small minority of people here, and for some reason the country listens to them more then the majority.

      I would like to comment on Peregrinus&#39;s view on abortion. While it might "appear" to be a nice thing for the poor folk, you should remember that it was their choice to get pregnant in the first place damn well knowing the consequences. Additionally many states here in the US are offering to put the child up for adoption. If abortion is left legalized.. it distorts our sense of what life is. In such a way, I could form a minority who believe that if we find someone annoying, then we should kill them. After all, in that logic we believe annoying people are a lower being. Hell, why not extend it out to different races..... for any reason.

      I have some issues with gay adoption as well, gay marriage is a different story then gay adoption. It&#39;s not a matter of it being right or wrong, but seriously exposing a child to a confusing situation of having two dad&#39;s or two mom&#39;s could lead to serious mental problems later on in life. Just imagine what they&#39;ll go through in school.. a good bit of embarressment is going to follow. I don&#39;t that in our current society, such an act can be accepted even if the parents truly do love the child, it&#39;s not right to do that.

      As for taxes, living in one of the worst managed states in the US, cranking taxes up rarely changes anything. Worse yet, I hear people bitching over giving tax breaks to the rich. Well, don&#39;t forget the rich provide the poor with jobs, if you overtax the rich what is going to happen? The rich will move where they are not taxed so heavilly, outsource, or lose money and go out of business. No, sometimes the tax breaks should be given to the rich.

      I also believe that social programs and public education are shit. Social security should be privatized, and welfare should be adjusted so that only the truly needy get it. 50% of government workers should be moved to useful jobs where instead of embezzling money, they could be fixing potholes or some shit. Our tax money goes to useless government jobs, if we reduce the government we reduce the taxes. Its hard for me to comment on public education other then saying it is inferior to private education in every sense of the word. The government should help private education by offering some money and starting a voucher program for those students opting for private over public, this lessens the cost to them, and also opens up more seats in public education.

      It should be put in as federal law that all states have the right to recall, initiative, and referendum. This goes against what some of the founding founders wanted... but then again what they wanted was to be safe from the population deciding what to do. If a politician becomes corrupt, they should be voted out. Additionally, citizens should be able to propose laws.

      .... just a few more points
      Just keep moving…

    7. #32
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      In my experiance, atheists are usually arrogant asses who claim to not have morals. Its nothing personal or anything, I just think that more people are agnostic and have some form of a moral structure. By that I mean, its really only the loud one who want to make trouble who call themselves atheist. Its a very small minority of people here, and for some reason the country listens to them more then the majority.[/b]
      I whole-heartedly disagree. Morals aren&#39;t magical things that come out of the Bible--they existed LONG before Christianity was ever around. They&#39;re a natural part of human society. And almost all of the atheists I know are upstanding citizens, and entirely moral people, including myself. If all the atheists you&#39;ve met are arrogant asses, you&#39;ve obviously had very few interactions with real atheists.
      Next, I call myself an atheist because that&#39;s what I am. I tried to avoid the issue for several months, pretending to still be religious, or just saying I was agnostic. But it didn&#39;t work--that&#39;s not the truth. I&#39;m an atheist, and thats it. I don&#39;t advertise it most of the time, but if somebody says something offensive, I WILL call them on it. As to your statement on atheists being the minority, the purpose of a republican democracy is to enforce the will of the majority without stepping on the rights of the minority. And in all of the US&#39;s history, atheists have had almost no voice in government. We&#39;ve been trying to get our position heard, but there&#39;s been a long history of discrimination against atheists. For example:
      The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) allows people to be excluded from holding office on religious grounds. An official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."[/b]
      Also, AR, MA, MD, NC, PA, SC and TN have statements of the same nature. This doesn&#39;t prevent a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew from a position in government, but it can stop atheists.
      Arkansas Constitution, Article 19 Section 1 of the 1874 constitution:
      "No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court." [/b]
      In this case, not only can an atheist not hold office, but they cannot testify as a witness in a court. That&#39;s a MAJOR civil rights violation.
      These weren&#39;t overturned until the early 1960&#39;s. Even today, there&#39;s cases of atheists being denied jobs or fired from their existing jobs because of their belief. Notably, this: Non-Christians Need Not Apply.
      We just want our rights upheld, not a favored status.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    8. #33
      Member Dangeruss's Avatar
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      I&#39;m with Tsen on this one. The only decent people of my age group that I&#39;ve met have been atheist or agnostic. Seeker, for example, is a wonderful guy, and a shining example of what christians should try to be more like. The young christians I&#39;ve met have some serious mental blockages when it comes to morality. I think it&#39;s a product of the times rather than religion, but plenty of my christian acquintances have submitted to me that it&#39;s ok to kill arabs over in the middle east but DEFINITELY NOT OKAY to kill a christian under any circumstance. And I live in one the most liberal states out there, mind you.

      No, the christians I know don&#39;t even follow their own stupid rules. self-interest, debauchery, sloth, theft, violence, and racism are just a few of the things I&#39;ve heard and seen from christians. I&#39;ve heard them tell me that figures like the president or the pope should always be trusted and listened to, even though I remember learning in youth group that christianity states that no human should have power over another. and then they go so far as to call me base because I dare to follow my own sense of morality, dare to believe in transcendent forces where they think there ought to be supreme beings. Closed-mindedness is never acceptable IMO, no matter what kind of morals, ideals, and rules come with it.

      there is only one moral, and that is empathy. There is only one rule, and it is golden.
      Courtney est ma reine. Et oui, je suis roi.

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    9. #34
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      Oneironaut Zero's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dangeruss View Post
      there is only one moral, and that is empathy. There is only one rule, and it is golden.
      [/b]
      Well-put. I really wish more people came to recognize that. I was just having a conversation with a friend today and said "There is nothing wrong with standing firmly behind your beliefs and convictions, as long as you show a respect and willingness to understand those of other people." It&#39;s so true that it&#39;s hard to see why that philosophy seems so rare.
      http://i.imgur.com/Ke7qCcF.jpg
      (Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)

    10. #35
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Yeah Russ, that was a great way to sum it up. Kudos&#33;
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    11. #36
      Member Dangeruss's Avatar
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      heh, thanks guys

      it only takes a little bit of empathy to see through something as petty as creed or a lack thereof. I wish some christians would read their own bible once in a while. The good samaritan didn&#39;t ask whether the beaten man believed in god before helping him. It shows a very simple belief that echoes throughout the rest of the second testament, and that is that we should have good will towards all other people, even our enemies.
      Courtney est ma reine. Et oui, je suis roi.

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    12. #37
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
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      Russ, I&#39;d just like to add a few things. While empathy is an extremely important moral, the golden rules is stupid as "the one moral," it&#39;s just incomplete. The obvious argument against it is that you need perspective to follow it, what a masochist wants, for instance, is based on a masochistic perspective. True empathy is very different from following th golden rule, and though masochist is an extreme example most people simply can&#39;t understand the position of other people, and doing unto them as you would want done unto yourself doesn&#39;t compute.

      There&#39;s also justice to consider, just because someone doesn&#39;t want something doesn&#39;t mean they don&#39;t deserve it, and vice versa. I&#39;m not talking about the death penalty, I think the death penalty is barbaric and keeps us from progressing as a civilization. But that doesn&#39;t mean I wouldn&#39;t want criminals to go to rehabilitational facilities (different from criminal colleges, which our prisons are) or drug addicts to go to drug rehab even if that&#39;s not what they want and it would suck for them to go.

      Now, allow me a leech off other people&#39;s ideas, but I feel like the best way for someone to form a moral structure is though self exploration, not through following dogmas or guides. Though the golden rule will "work" for someone to be able to operate successfully as a human being without becoming Hitler or something, there&#39;s a lot more to ethics.

      And, though empathy is extremely important, I&#39;d like to add two vitues not included in the golden rule, but that I believe to be equally as important to character.

      Bravery, it&#39;s very important to show courage, as a human, in order to operate as an ethical person. The fact is it requires to bravery to make the choice between what&#39;s right and what&#39;s easy. It requires bravery to correct injustice, it requires bravery to save lives. What these protest groups with their pointless protesting don&#39;t realize is that it&#39;s easy to protest, it requires ambition and follow through to make a successful one of those to happen, it requires very little courage at all... and hence it does very little to change anything. Back in Martin Luther King&#39;s era it was protests like when four black students ate at a white table and refused to stand up as the waitress called them things and dumped food on them and threw crap at them, along with several other white customers. Without balls nothing like that will get done, and you can&#39;t make a difference without balls.

      Next, justice. It&#39;s fairness, it&#39;s not letting bad people get away with bad shit. Law is separate from justice, as law is oftenly injust, and the further we go into the future, the further this government, run by people that most of the planet disagree with, commit injustice... while still abiding the law. Justice is separate from revenge, but often mistaken as it. The difference between justice and revenge is justice requires empathy... looking past what people want to what they need. Justice is a strong calling all on it&#39;s own, and it&#39;s the one that survives the most illogically... it&#39;s the one that is sometimes impossibled to defend in a debate without a circular argument.

      So there&#39;s my opinion.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    13. #38
      Member TheNocturnalGent's Avatar
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      Ralph Nader
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    14. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by TheNocturnalGent View Post
      Ralph Nader
      [/b]
      Ralph Nadar was financed by the Republican Party so that he could pull votes away from the Democratic Party&#39;s Candidate. It was revenge for previous few elections when the Third Party Candidates were Nazi Conservatives and took votes away from the Republicans.

      It if it not for Idiot Third Party Voters, such obvious tactics would not work.

    15. #40
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
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      We need more than two parties... though... that much is clear. Ralph Nader believed in sacrificing the election in order to install a three party system, The republicans didn&#39;t pay him, he just believe that four years of Bush was a short enemy while three parties was a long ally... to democracy that is. I didn&#39;t have an opinion, I agree with him philosophically I just wish he waited until the choice was not between a regular candidate and a candidate that represented the four horsemen of the apocolypse.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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