Thread: Camera's In Our School

If that doesn't spell 'F-A-S-C-I-S-M' I know know what does : / Totalitarianism perhaps?

Give me a F! Give me an A! ...

I'll play the devil's advocate for a second, and explain the possible mentality behind the school's actions.

They set up security cameras for your security (security ex post facto, but security nonetheless). I'm unaware of the environment your school is in, but violence and theft may be legitimate concerns.

In addition, setting up cameras takes money. The (public) schools get their money from the government, and must submit budgets to the government. If they say "we need x amount of dollars for additional security" and government gives them 'x', the school may spend x/2 on cameras, and use the rest for other purposes.
They may also spend x+y. The government would see that more money is needed, and throw more cash at them. Then the schools might use the surplus as mentioned above.

The prohibition of electronic devices, if limited to cameras, may indeed protect the privacy of the student. There have been cases of students catching the faculty or other students in innapropriate acts. This evidence may prove to be uncomfortablel to the members of the school board, who may then have to spend time and energy to resolve said behavior.

I'm not sure why they would ban electronic devices that do not have recording ability, but like any beurocracy, once they have power, they don't want to let go. Even if they were a distraction in the classroom, students should be allowed to have access to entertianment during free time.

I hope this viewpoint helps the conversation progress.

Are you at a public school?

If so, you might want to consider legal action. At a private school, you can't do anything more than withdraw, because you're not forced to be there, but if it's a public school, you're required to go there and I'm pretty sure you could get most of the measures undone as violation of privacy.
The ACLU might be a good place to start, providing you're in the US (which I'm assuming you are, if I'm wrong correct me)

I totally understand the CCTV cameras going up everywhere. We have them in all the places you mentiond as well as in the classrooms. It never bothered me or anyone else I know for that matter. Taking your "electric devices" seems pretty eccessive though.

Originally Posted by Tsen

Are you at a public school?

If so, you might want to consider legal action. At a private school, you can't do anything more than withdraw, because you're not forced to be there, but if it's a public school, you're required to go there and I'm pretty sure you could get most of the measures undone as violation of privacy.
The ACLU might be a good place to start, providing you're in the US (which I'm assuming you are, if I'm wrong correct me)[/b]

I'm not sure being monitored by security cameras in a public school is a violation of privacy. Unless you were referring to the wholesale ban on electronics.

My sisters school *shes a teacher* had to do this. they had several 'trash can fires' during the year and felt the need to increase security to stop the students from creating 'trash can fires'.

remember that public schools may be public, but it does not necessarily follow the rules of public streets. a public school is not a democracy. they can tell you how to dress, when to eat, when not to eat, where to eat, and even how many bathroom breaks you get.

highschool sucks really :yumdumdoodledum:

So.
All you do is say you're an orthodox Jew, and taking a video of you constitutes a "graven image", which violates your freedom of religion.

I am in Canada, not America. And I am at a public High School. And this is Facism, and they do have near-total power over us students. Most students don't even care in our school, so no action is being taken against the ban or the cameras. I can just hope that the school does something rash and extreme, causing most students to change their opinion and take action. We are a small school, only about 1000 students, but we could still cause quite an uproar.


Our school isn't violent either. It's more the drugs. I think we do, or used to have the highest drug rate in Canada at our school.

Originally Posted by Tsen

So.
All you do is say you're an orthodox Jew, and taking a video of you constitutes a "graven image", which violates your freedom of religion.[/b]

1. Videos aren't graven.
2. Jews aren't supposed to make graven images. Cameras are not Jews. You are not being forced to make graven images. Therefore, your freedom of religion is not being violated in any way.

Originally Posted by Tsen

I am in Canada, not America. And I am at a public High School. And this is Facism, and they do have near-total power over us students. Most students don't even care in our school, so no action is being taken against the ban or the cameras. I can just hope that the school does something rash and extreme, causing most students to change their opinion and take action. We are a small school, only about 1000 students, but we could still cause quite an uproar.
Our school isn't violent either. It's more the drugs. I think we do, or used to have the highest drug rate in Canada at our school.[/b]

I am not an expert in the Canadian public school system, but in America, schools have parental associations (PTA), schools have boards, and are run by the local government. There are several forums in which to voice your concerns and complaints. The presence of these forums goes against the very definition of facism. You don't have to hope for 'extreme' school actions to make a difference. If your concerns hold any water at all, there will be others that you will be able convince, or there will be others with sympathetic views.

Originally Posted by Merlin38

I am not an expert in the Canadian public school system, but in America, schools have parental associations (PTA), schools have boards, and are run by the local government. There are several forums in which to voice your concerns and complaints. The presence of these forums goes against the very definition of facism. You don't have to hope for 'extreme' school actions to make a difference. If your concerns hold any water at all, there will be others that you will be able convince, or there will be others with sympathetic views.[/b]

We do have a PTA, or an organization similar to it. I'm going to spend some time looking into my options.

That would probably have more effect on the school system then this discussion would.

Originally Posted by Merlin38

1. Videos aren't graven.
2. Jews aren't supposed to make graven images. Cameras are not Jews. You are not being forced to make graven images. Therefore, your freedom of religion is not being violated in any way.[/b]

It's considered extremely impolite to photograph an orthodox Jew because they believe that photographs constitute graven images. They take it VERY literally. An orthodox Jew will not have any images of people in their house whatsoever. Paintings, photographs, nothing.
Movies constitute a graven image to them.
Now, Jews aren't supposed to make graven images, but taking a video of them is like giving a blood transfusion to a JW and saying, "Well, I know you're not supposed to give blood transfusions, but technically the doctor was the one that gave it, so no worries."

Originally Posted by Tsen

It's considered extremely impolite to photograph an orthodox Jew because they believe that photographs constitute graven images. They take it VERY literally. An orthodox Jew will not have any images of people in their house whatsoever. Paintings, photographs, nothing.
Movies constitute a graven image to them.
Now, Jews aren't supposed to make graven images, but taking a video of them is like giving a blood transfusion to a JW and saying, "Well, I know you're not supposed to give blood transfusions, but technically the doctor was the one that gave it, so no worries."[/b]

I had no idea!

smash the cameras, if they don't let you have electronics, don't let them. street justice

When I was in school in GA, there was cameras placed everywhere in the school. I have nothing against having cameras in a place like that, b/c if I was ever attacked in the hallway and there were no witnesses, then they would have the video as evidence. We also had security guards prowling the hallways, but if it wasn't for them and the cameras, the school would have been complete hell to go to (and it wasn't that far off anyway).

As for taking away your rights to have cameras and other electronic devices at your school, that is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason for that garbage. Besides, you're right, if they can have cameras, why can't you?

Originally Posted by juroara

My sisters school *shes a teacher* had to do this. they had several 'trash can fires' during the year and felt the need to increase security to stop the students from creating 'trash can fires'.

remember that public schools may be public, but it does not necessarily follow the rules of public streets. a public school is not a democracy. they can tell you how to dress, when to eat, when not to eat, where to eat, and even how many bathroom breaks you get.

highschool sucks really :yumdumdoodledum:[/b]

I never knew you could make a fire with your iPod...

Originally Posted by CryoDragoon

I never knew you could make a fire with your iPod...[/b]

when my sister went to highschool, kids had pagers. they didnt have ipods or cellphones.

really the most horrible thing about highschool has to do with lunch time, excessive homework, and bathroom breaks. right now my sisters highschool has a half hour lunch break in an overcrowded school. not everyone gets food in time, and others standing in line might be told theyre out of food. bathroom breaks are expected to happen with in those five minutes between classes, or during lunch. as if it doesnt take five minutes already to run to your locker and to the next building - and as if crap just flys out of your ass - a lot of people have to push and that alone can take five minutes.

studies have shown that excessive homework give teenagers a 'school day' equivalent to a 12 hour work day - with said teenagers 'working' longer hours than their own parents. stress rises. teenagers suffer from stress with excessive homework. (stress is a killer)

those are real problems that even teachers recognize and feel something should be done about it.

but cameras? cameras are put up when students actually break laws. when punks dont behave they ruin it for everyone. but punks are idiots and you just know some of them are going to try to damage the cameras as well - oh yeah - teenage punks think theyre smarter than the system.

and electronics? come on. kids try to hide their ipods underneath their hoodies and actually think their teachers are too stupid to notice. again, if punks didnt try to break the rules and ruin it for everyone electronics might have been allowed so you can use them during breaks, such as lunch. ipods, cell phones, game boys - these things become banned BECAUSE of idiot punks who used them during class time.

golden rule - dont get caught :yumdumdoodledum:

Who really cares if there are cameras at your school? We have them at my school, at like every corner, in the classrooms, cafeteria, gym, and even outside. They have incredible zoom features as well, so drug deals and whatnot all have to take place quite a ways from school, because even if you're nowheres near a camera, they can still see the exchange, and security guards come running out and tackle you to the ground within like 45 seconds.... I don't see this as an invasion of privacy at all, if you're not breaking the rules in the first place, then you have no reason to be worried anyway. Or if you do break the rules, just don't do it in front of cameras. Also, as for the ban on electronic devices, your school seems to take it more seriously than mine, but we do have that rule as well. Especially no cameras/camera phones/anything that may contain a camera for a persons rights, because there have been several incidents where people have had pictures taken of them against their will or without their knowledge and then posted in public places such as the internet, which can actually lead to a lawsuit against the school. Here, the teachers are pretty lazy bastards, they just ask you to put the stuff away rather than confiscating it, and usually they let the black kids get away with it entirely (I'm not racist, that's just the way it is here, the teachers are all afraid of anyone who's not white for some reason, so hardly any of the teachers will say anything to a black kid). Our school has to have cameras though, because it's pretty violent here. People randomly decide to go and beat up other people in big groups because "They sound gay when they talk", is one of the reasons I've heard. It's quite fun actually, and we once had a giant brawl at this school, like literally hundreds of people just beating the crap out of each other because of the racial and gang conflicts around my area.... So yeah, I can see the usage of cameras. >.>

Okay, well I can do about jack all about the ban or the cameras. I wasn't really that angry about the cameras before, and I'm not really anymore. With the ban, they are only activly enforcing the ban on cellphones. The teachers seem to magicly "not notice" iPods. I think in all there are some valid reasons for the lack of student controlled cameras, but that overall it doesn't matter because I'm out of high school in two years anyway. Which is good because it's complete BS. If they ever do start trying to take my iPod away though...

if you're not breaking the rules in the first place, then you have no reason to be worried anyway[/b]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, eh?

"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. . ."

Originally Posted by Tsen

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, eh?

"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. . ."[/b]

Everyone has something to hide, whether its legal or not. Even if it's the privacy to scratch your behind without anyone seeing! Personally, this whole thing sounds a disgusting invasion of privacy to me. That really is a 1984-style setup. Cameras, perhaps; banning electronics, what the hell? It's unnecessary, especially when mobilephones are so important these days.

Disgusting. If you don't consider this a big deal, you're an idiot. This is exactly how 1984 would come to bear: people allowing themselves to be led into this step-by-step, it wouldn't happen overnight. Orwell didn't write a book on this for fun, it was a warning. The logic that "it's a small sacrifice in privacy for a lot of protection" is a slippery slope. It'd be the first of many small sacrifices, I'd imagine.

The cameras are there for your protection, I don't doubt the government would set up surveillance with any other purpose. Yet they're only human at the end of the day. As you begin to build up this surveillance system it becomes all the more tempting for the government (or indeed anyone) to tap into it for other purposes. Not everyone has a noble intent. To what degree are you willing to put your rights in the hands of someone else who doesn't know you personally and certainly doesn't have any feelings or loyalties to you? Sounds like suicide to me.

Calling your school 'fascist' is a bit silly. Control over students? Well, duh? You should see some schools here that try and preserve every single students' rights. You do have to sacrifice something in the way of common sense, especially in a controlled place like a school (a street or your house wouldn't have the same requirement, obviously). They don't learn crap. Even so, there are a thousand better ways to control students than acting like a prison. If you have to control your students through a method like that, then I think that's a failing on behalf of your teachers and whatnot.

Myself, I'd destroy them. Complaining isn't going to get you anywhere. I don't consider that an over the top response - it's over the top surveillance. What else would you do if more and more cameras kept appearing? Ask politely?

My school has you sign something saying you won't have cell phones out during school hours. We aren't allowed electronic devices on school grounds between the hours of seven A.M. and three P.M. We also have camera's all over the place. I'm not seeing the problem really. Cellphones, specificly texting is a HUGE problem during class time. I can't look anywhere without someone having a cellphone out, trying to hide it, as they text someone.

Ipods, MP3 players, and all that are just another distraction. I can't count the number of kids I see with them on during class that come to school the next day saying something like. "What book work?" because they were to busy listening to music to pay attention to what the teacher was saying. The camera's are common sense. Have you people not seen the amount of school shootings, what was it...a month or two before December? There were like four in one month I think. Damn straight I want Camera's around my school to take note of someone acting strange and stop them before something bad happens. I'd rather have that camera on me then a gun to my head because some peer thinks his life sucks.

Drugs are also a problem at my school, Hell last year we had an undercover cop in our school for three months posing as a student. When that came to a close three kids were marched out of the school in handcuffs...and that is just in South West oklahoma, I can only imagine how much of a problem a larger city might have. School is for learning. Not pictures, not music, nor any other little device that keeps your attention.

Originally Posted by Daeva

My school has you sign something saying you won't have cell phones out during school hours. We aren't allowed electronic devices on school grounds between the hours of seven A.M. and three P.M. We also have camera's all over the place. I'm not seeing the problem really.[/b]

Why not? It's a massive invasion of privacy and a threat to your rights. Banning electronic devices is a massive step in the wrong direction.

Originally Posted by Daeva

Cellphones, specificly texting is a HUGE problem during class time. I can't look anywhere without someone having a cellphone out, trying to hide it, as they text someone.[/b]

Understood. But there's a better solution.
I've got an engineering teacher here at school. He's a massive tech geek, and carries his laptop, cell phone and iPod with him everywhere. I've rarely seen him in class without a bluetooth headset.
But we've never had problems with cell phones in class.
He has a simple rule--if somebody's phone rings out loud, they owe the class $5 towards pizza for finals week. You can have your cell phone there, set it on the desk, check it frequently, it just can't ring out loud, you can't carry on a call in the classroom, and you can't text.
This is the way things should be. You can restrict use without all-encompassing bans. Cellphones are increasingly becoming necessities and not accessories. For emergency situations, there's nothing more helpful. Banning them is a massive mistake.

Originally Posted by Daeva

Ipods, MP3 players, and all that are just another distraction. I can't count the number of kids I see with them on during class that come to school the next day saying something like. "What book work?" because they were to busy listening to music to pay attention to what the teacher was saying.[/b]

Which, again, is a problem which can be circumvented without employing draconian bans. And regardless of how little somebody pays attention in class, they have the right to pay as much or as little attention as they want. It will only hurt them later.

Originally Posted by Daeva

The camera's are common sense. Have you people not seen the amount of school shootings, what was it...a month or two before December? There were like four in one month I think.[/b]

And cameras would prevent shootings how?
Schools don't have the manpower to monitor cameras in every hall all day long. The tapes are more for post-facto enforcement, not crime prevention. A better policy is to encourage students to report suspicious behavior. A school can't hire enough people to watch twenty cameras, but there's more than enough students in a building to keep an eye on things.
If you want crime PREVENTION, cameras won't help you.

Originally Posted by Daeva

Drugs are also a problem at my school, Hell last year we had an undercover cop in our school for three months posing as a student. When that came to a close three kids were marched out of the school in handcuffs...and that is just in South West oklahoma, I can only imagine how much of a problem a larger city might have.[/b]

So? This has nothing to do with video surveillance. They were caught by an undercover officer, not by cameras. The cameras are virtually useless for that sort of thing. A drug transfer is nearly impossible to spot in the best of conditions, let alone watching a tiny 15 inch black and white television set. Why do you think it took the guy three months to catch them? It's rather like the counter intelligence business. You're better off trying to infiltrate than you are trying to keenly observe.
Further, this goes back to the same problem--schools don't have the man power or resources to monitor all of those CCTV cameras. How are they supposed to catch a drug deal with that? Now sure, they might spot a few kids smoking weed for fifteen minutes behind the school, but would you really need a camera to catch that? Is it really worth giving up your right to privacy just so they can catch some exceptionally stupid druggies?