Thread: Lets talk about drugs!

Originally Posted by Sandform

Yes, the law is hypocritical, but he isn't in charge of the government, all you can do is go out and vote.

The gov. works kind of like this in respect to those subjected to it.

Law: Don't wear green or we will kill you.

It is a stupid law...but are you gonna wear green?

I would wear nothing but green . I'd start gathering support and build a green society, for the sake of being free to decide my own destiny; my own life. As long as I'm not harming anyone else with it that should be fine and if they'll kill me for it.. So be it.

Nothing in my Life is more precious to me than my Freedom. I would die trying to protect it.

And Oneironaught,
I'm glad to hear I'm understood. I see that all that has motivated you to side with the decision was peer pressure from higher up. And higher up and higher up; Political influence reaches a long way. But in the meanwhile the long arm of the rediculous "war on drugs" having reached out so far that it's even damaging fundamental freedoms right here has serverely damaged the atmosphere and respectability of this forum.

I must admit that I simply don't feel comfortable around here anymore. Once again it is politics that devides us. Well it's allways the Oldest sayings that hold the most truth. "Divide and Rule" is a Tool of politics that reaches out very far and that is manifesting itself here too; It is what is turning civilised discussions into flaming fights and the once so pleasant atmosphere here into a very hostile, "watch what you say"- atmosphere. It's really too bad, 'cause when I joined this forum well over a year ago that certainly wasn't the case.

But now this whole thing has been mutually understood and there are obviously no hard feelinsg and nothing but respect and understanding between us, no matter how divided we stand on this issue. You, Oneironaut, Ophelia Blue, Seeker, Dodobird, Volcon, DeadDollkitty, Shaft monkey, Sandform, Burns and many other members that don't directly come to mind are in my eyes very respectable members simply because you are kind and understanding. Decent and civilised enough to, no matter how much you may disagree with me, still always be able to keep things civilised and kind.

There's another group of people who are the exact opposite of you; Intolerant, rude, offensive, naïve and unable to discuss civilised and constructive. I'm affraid some of these people have also gotten Mod- and Admin- status'es which is not serving this forum well.
Now you're going to see a change if you haven't seen it allready: A group of people, similairminded to me, feel unwelcome and "shut up" because of their views. Many more besides me are now considering to leave because they hold their Freedom dear and they are now, with me, looking for alternative forums. I was actually planning to make one myself. A simple one where this negative mentality will not hinder discussion.

I'm affraid that with the leaving of all those "Psychedelic people" that DV is gunna loose alot of really intelligent, brightminded people.
Witchhunting ain't over yet I'm affraid.

Originally Posted by SKA

And Oneironaught,
I'm glad to hear I'm understood. I see that all that has motivated you to side with the decision was peer pressure from higher up.

I do understand, yes. But let me make it clear - since you may not be aware - that I was probably the single most vocal lobbyist in favor of setting limits on drug discussion, way before this really became the issue it it now.

But make no mistake, I had plenty of support behind the scenes. And the ultimate decision was made without any direct input or consultation with me. After all, I have no power around here but what some might perceive.

My point is simply that I did not cave to pressure from above as you may believe. I was part of that pressure on some level. But my degree of influence is unclear, even to me.

The foundation of my argument is - and always was - that there should be some sort of limits to the amount of boasting and glorifying of drugs that is tolerated. It started because, at the time, there was a rash of posts, pictures and chat talk that were blatant attempts to glorify illegal (and dangerous) drug use. But, the fact that any administrative action has been taken - and the severity of that action - was completely out of my control.

Things like a posted photo of a member snorting lines of cocaine, posts where people are saying how awesome and fun it is for them to pop pills and shit. An entire thread by one member where he's bragging about his "hard life" and "extensive hard drug" usage coupled with a glorification of thug life. And at that same time, there was a problem with chat abuse, as well as every conversation in chat turning into 'how many lines some one did last night and how much more effective crank/coke is when injected, rather than snorted. All of that shit was crossing the line (and arguably, breaking some rules): even with the rules that were in place THEN. My essential rant was primarily for the enforcement of exsisting rules, explicit and understood.

As I've said, I agree that many of the drug laws are bullshit. I whole-heartily believe, for example, that marijuana should be legalised in America. I also believe that it's possible to discuss drugs in a responsible manner. I've also done some of the things that aren't appropriate for discussion; I've been to jail for them. So please don't think I'm trying to play some moral, holier-than-thou, pedestal game. I'm not. The problem is that there is a very fine line that's hard to toe without crossing over. And a number of people were getting awfully brazen and willingly leaping over that line. Several of them have been banned anyway.

I must admit that I simply don't feel comfortable around here anymore.

And that's the thing I regret about this turn of events.

It is what is turning civilised discussions into flaming fights...

I think it's being discussed in a rather civil manner actually. Especially given that fact that some people clearly upset and not happy about this.

But now this whole thing has been mutually understood and there are obviously no hard feelinsg and nothing but respect and understanding between us, no matter how divided we stand on this issue.

Well, I thank you. I always have and always will have great respect for you, SKA. I'm sorry to have to be divided over this issue.

...they are now, with me, looking for alternative forums. I was actually planning to make one myself. A simple one where this negative mentality will not hinder discussion.

I'm sorry that any member feels that way. I can only hope that those who are set on leaving would consider being part of this forum and another, rather than leaving completely.

I'm affraid that with the leaving of all those "Psychedelic people" that DV is gunna loose alot of really intelligent, brightminded people.

And I'm sad to have to agree.

Originally Posted by SKA

I must admit that I simply don't feel comfortable around here anymore. Once again it is politics that devides us. Well it's allways the Oldest sayings that hold the most truth. "Divide and Rule" is a Tool of politics that reaches out very far and that is manifesting itself here too; It is what is turning civilised discussions into flaming fights and the once so pleasant atmosphere here into a very hostile, "watch what you say"- atmosphere. It's really too bad, 'cause when I joined this forum well over a year ago that certainly wasn't the case.

I'm really sorry that you feel that way, SKA. I've always respected you and figured you to be a very contributive(word?) part of this community. I hope you don't feel that others simply having an opposite view from your own (and having to enforce rules based upon those views) as an attempt to "play politics." There are very sincere reasons (many of which were stated) to the rules that have been put in place. None of them are meant to "divide and rule" anyone.

I admit that I feel some level of offense at having views that I agree with (even if the flack isn't toward the way I present myself, personally) evaluated as something as hollow as a political Tool, but I understand your position. It would be a shame to lose a member like yourself to something like the inability to speak on a subject such as recreational drug use - which definitely carries the possibility of dire, negative, consequences, if the information is either misinterpreted or disregarded - when it does not pertain to dreaming. What you decide to do, though, is your decision, and I'm simply trying to say that I wish you could find some way to stick with us to continue to promote what this forum is supposed to be about, and not hold too many hard feelings toward us over something that was, already, hard enough for us to impose and enforce with having to deal with the recognition that we may seem to be turning a cold shoulder to many of our respected members.

Whichever way you decide to go, just know that these rules were not put in place to deliberately oppress any party, and that our (collective) willingness to allow drug discussion that pertains to dreaming is an attempt to be as diplomatic about the entire issue as possible.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I'm really sorry that you feel that way, SKA. I've always respected you and figured you to be a very contributive(word?) part of this community. I hope you don't feel that others simply having an opposite view from your own (and having to enforce rules based upon those views) as an attempt to "play politics." There are very sincere reasons (many of which were stated) to the rules that have been put in place. None of them are meant to "divide and rule" anyone.

I admit that I feel some level of offense at having views that I agree with (even if the flack isn't toward the way I present myself, personally) evaluated as something as hollow as a political Tool, but I understand your position. It would be a shame to lose a member like yourself to something like the inability to speak on a subject such as recreational drug use - which definitely carries the possibility of dire, negative, consequences, if the information is either misinterpreted or disregarded - when it does not pertain to dreaming. What you decide to do, though, is your decision, and I'm simply trying to say that I wish you could find some way to stick with us to continue to promote what this forum is supposed to be about, and not hold too many hard feelings toward us over something that was, already, hard enough for us to impose and enforce with having to deal with the recognition that we may seem to be turning a cold shoulder to many of our respected members.

Whichever way you decide to go, just know that these rules were not put in place to deliberately oppress any party, and that our (collective) willingness to allow drug discussion that pertains to dreaming is an attempt to be as diplomatic about the entire issue as possible.

Well Oneironaut, it's clear that you care, and I appreciate that.
I think some other staff members can learn a thing or two from you about being civil and diplomatic.

I pretty much ran out of ammunition here, so now for the doomsday weapon:
Why don't you out-law any off-topic discussion that can be dangerous?
How about parkour, free-running, sky-diving, cliff-hanging, motor-cycle driving, scooter driving, car driving, hunting, owning a gun, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking, red-meat eating, breathing polluted air while stuck in traffic, working in construction, fighting in a war.
I can go on and on, all these things are more dangerous than psychedelic drugs. I don't have the statistics, but still I'm sure that I am correct about this. Much much more people die or get hurt while doing these things.
Why not outlaw all these topics, which unlike psychedelics have very little to do with dreaming?

I honestly think this might be the most intelligent debate I have ever seen on this site. I almost always take a side and squint my eyes at the other one, but this discussion has had me changing my mind back and forth about 12 times. Oneironaut, you need to be promoted from moderator to site attorney. You have absolutely kicked ass at arguing the site's position on the issue. I of course think and have said that there is a huge distinction between trip drugs and high drugs, but the bottom line is that most trip drugs are illegal in the United States, which is the main nationality represented on this site, and that people are some times less able to safely handle themselves when out in the world while on those drugs. There is really no way around the fact that those circumstances create both an image and a liability issue for any discussion that takes place here about drugs that are all the way illegal in the countries represented here.

One of my first thoughts about this issue was that there was never a problem expressed with the "Hey you drunk!!! Post here!!!" thread. Although it is completely illogical, I don't think that gung-ho alcohol thread in Senseless Banter, which many of us in this thread have posted in and glorified alcohol big time, has the same effect, even though alcohol is illegal for minors. Though it baffles me, alcohol is legal for adults and is not the taboo subject acid and mushrooms are, so I don't think there is an image or a liability issue there. It's very strange, but that's how it is.