Thread: Lets talk about drugs!

Originally Posted by SKA

I wonder why it is, Oneironaught, that you compare Discussing Child Pornorgraphy, Meth-making instructions, bomb-making instructions and Burglary tips with Discussing Psychedelic drugs. Cuz obviously there are reasonable moral grounds in which you'd want to avoid discussions about Child Pornography, Meth-production, burglary and Bomb-making Instructions; These things HARM people. There is no discussion possible that they don't harm people. Ask Meth-junkies, Burglary victims, sexually abused children and Bombing-victims; They harm people.

I lumped them together only because of their illegal, potentially-harmful status.

It seems you have piled Psychedelic drugs together with all the former mentioned business, and by placing it in that row of harmfull subjects you criminalize it. Which is unrightious.

Believe me, I understand your position, SKA. I really do. I piled all drugs together, yes. Not because I think they are all the same but, because of their popular stigma and the legal issues surrounding their usage.

Trust me, I've done a number of substances in my life as well. But that doesn't mean that I go around in public talking about it. Unfortunately, it's a very gray area that seems to cross into shade around here too often.

Like I said, I think you are generally one of the more responsible members when it comes to drug talk. However, when considering the overall status and situation, I have to side with the decision made by the staff because I think it's the responsible (in the grand scheme of things) of two hard positions to empathise with.

There is no way to make such a drastic change in policy without some members feeling slighted in the process. But, when the ones most vocally fighting for the continued allowance of drug talk are actually fighting in support of the discussion of illegal activities then choosing a side is made a little bit easier.

While if you were to get down to the pure, unbiased truth about Psychedelics, what they are and what they actually do, you will find the opposite to be true: They don't harm people, In fact most people have found that their psychedelic experiences have greatly benefited them spiritually. Rarely someone does psychedelics and becomes permanently mentally disturbed; This too is the result of improper education on the subject: no wonder if drug discussions are banned.

I really do understand, man.

Now about the discussion of illegal activities. Based on who's laws? US laws?

Yes, US laws.

Pleas explain that to me Oneironaught.

I don't pretend to make excuses for the current laws.

Doesn't that mean that the law is hypocritical and that it's moral motivations are most questionable?

You are absolutely correct; the laws are quite screwed up in many areas regarding both the illegality of certain things and the way enforcement is carried out. And yes, "moral" motivation and politics are a huge part of it. But, we aren't here to demonstrate or petition for changes in federal law, only in Dreamviews rules and guidelines.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But, if the topic of drugs comes up in a thread related to dreaming, we are still able to provide some sort of information (and, like I said, anyone requesting more can be directed to sites like erowid, etc.)

Dreaming is inseparable from psychedelics. Removing discussion on psychedelics from a forum about dreaming, leaves the forum castrated.

I understand ( thought not agree with ) your views that psychedelic drugs discussion are bad for kids to read. But this is a site about psychedelic experiences. If you don't want to discuss psychedelic experiences, then your only solution is to shut down the site.

You are afraid to harm little children with the information presented on the site? Then shut down the site. A site about dreaming, is a site where psychedelic experiences are discussed. If that is dangerous, then any site about dreaming is dangerous.

A site without psychedelic experiences discussions, is not a site about dreaming. It is a lame, cowardly site about politically correct anecdotes.

I don't care so much if you censor views that you don't like, for example if you decide to censor any mention of file-sharing software, or any mention of the war in Irak, who cares, it doesn't matter to a site about dreaming.


But it's a million times more serious than that.

This isn't an argument about censorship, it's an argument about the nature of the site. Is it going to be a great site about dreaming, or is it going to be lame, politically correct site, about only some of the aspects of dreaming that you are not afraid to discuss.

Right, I read somewhere that DMT is the drug released in your brain which causes you to dream...so maybe if we ever decided to allow the topic of drug discussion it should be specific drugs, deemed acceptable by the forum leaders.

Also, the type of discussion allowed would need to be given as well. For example, no "it was great when I saw a purple elephant" comments. It would have to be limited to no perception on the desirability of it, so you would take out it was great and be left with "I saw a purple elephant."

You can post about drugs if it stays with the topic of lucid dreaming. So anytime you want to talk about a drug or drugs, simply say, "this helped my lucid dreaming out as well", at the end of your post. or somewhere in the middle say, "it was just like a lucid dream!" would this work? Im just saying that this little exception is bs and funny at the same time.

btw it isnt illegal to be high on any drug if you are in your home. its only illegal to possess illegal substances, or be out in public under the influence. So, talking about a psychedelic experience isnt talking about doing illegal activities. Talking about possessing those substances or going around town on them isnt illegal either, but talks about an illegal situation. So, whats the big deal?

Kids are only being taught biased opinions on drugs which is fucked up. They should get to see both sides of the story. They are not only harmful thats bs. No one should influence kids to use drugs either though, but they should see that drugs are just like soda, or coffee, or anything else. Nothing is good for you if you abuse it, and many many many things can become addictive. A lot of you are probably alcoholics lol. even exercise and stuff can be bad if you over do it... But many things can cause positive outcomes when used responsibly and most pleasurable experiences are worth repeating.

Originally Posted by dodobird

Dreaming is inseparable from psychedelics. Removing discussion on psychedelics from a forum about dreaming, leaves the forum castrated.

I understand ( thought not agree with ) your views that psychedelic drugs discussion are bad for kids to read. But this is a site about psychedelic experiences. If you don't want to discuss psychedelic experiences, then your only solution is to shut down the site.

You are afraid to harm little children with the information presented on the site? Then shut down the site. A site about dreaming, is a site where psychedelic experiences are discussed. If that is dangerous, then any site about dreaming is dangerous.

A site without psychedelic experiences discussions, is not a site about dreaming. It is a lame, cowardly site about politically correct anecdotes.

I don't care so much if you censor views that you don't like, for example if you decide to censor any mention of file-sharing software, or any mention of the war in Irak, who cares, it doesn't matter to a site about dreaming.


But it's a million times more serious than that.

This isn't an argument about censorship, it's an argument about the nature of the site. Is it going to be a great site about dreaming, or is it going to be lame, politically correct site, about only some of the aspects of dreaming that you are not afraid to discuss.

Though I understand where you are coming from, that is a completely unrealistic argument.

The psychedelic experiences that happen, in dreams, happen in the relative safety of the dream-state. This is where (usually) the body is paralyzed, autonomously, to keep one from acting out their responses to the psychedelic experiences in dreams, in the physical world. We are all subject to the experiences that we have, in dreams, and nature has provided us with a way from harming ourself, due to those (often intense) experiences.

This is not the case, with psychedelic drugs. Taken irresponsibly, many drugs cause a serious risk to those that take them, whether it be from dehydration (being active while on things like ecstasy), or bugging out due to hallucinations and, as a result of "running from oneself" - so to speak - causing yourself serious injury and/or death. I, personally, have lost friends to drugs, and do not take the possibilities (and frequency) of them being mis-used or abused very lightly.

One can relate to dreaming without having ever taken a single psychedelic drug in their life. Having no experience in drugs, in no way, cheapens one's experience in, or research of, the dreaming mind. This site is about dreaming - not "psychedelic experiences, in general" though we recognize the connection and find it fitting to allow such relevant discussion, having to do with that connection. Sure, the two are similar, and sure, drugs can cause a dreamlike state, but to say a site about dreaming with no (even though that is not the case we are intending) discussion about psychedelic drugs is a "castration" of the concept of the site, itself, is, by no means true. At all.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Though I understand where you are coming from, that is a completely unrealistic argument.

The psychedelic experiences that happen, in dreams, happen in the relative safety of the dream-state. This is where (usually) the body is paralyzed, autonomously, to keep one from acting out their responses to the psychedelic experiences in dreams, in the physical world. We are all subject to the experiences that we have, in dreams, and nature has provided us with a way from harming ourself, due to those (often intense) experiences.

Dreaming can be just as dangerous as drugs. People sleep walk out of windows, drive sleeping, all sorts of stuff. At least on drugs, your awake and know what your doing.

Originally Posted by Michael

btw it isnt illegal to be high on any drug if you are in your home. its only illegal to possess illegal substances,

It's kind of hard to "be high on any drug" without possessing said drug.

So, talking about a psychedelic experience isnt talking about doing illegal activities.

No, but talking about illegal drug {usage} IS talking about illegal activities.

Kids are only being taught biased opinions on drugs which is fucked up.

And how is drug talk here any different?

No one should influence kids to use drugs either though,

But that's essentially what you're fighting for.

but they should see that drugs are just like soda, or coffee, or anything else.

Way to trivialize the dangers and situation.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

It's kind of hard to "be high on any drug" without possessing said drug.


No, but talking about illegal drug {usage} IS talking about illegal activities.


And how is drug talk here any different?


But that's essentially what you're fighting for.


Way to trivialize the dangers and situation.

you can be high on a drug and not possess that drug... you just have to be in possession for a little bit

you dont have to talk about illegal drug usage to talk about a drug experience. you just have to say you were under the influence of a certain drug. you dont have to say you smoked it, or shot it up, or orally took it...

drug talk on here is different because people like you, will talk negative about drugs, and people like me will talk positive about them. Thats both sides.

Im not fighting for kids to try drugs. when did i ever say this? Kids that will try drugs either WANT to try them, or fall into peer pressure which is because of bad social skills or bad parenting. So it will happen either way.

and your last point was just........ nvm

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Though I understand where you are coming from, that is a completely unrealistic argument.

The psychedelic experiences that happen, in dreams, happen in the relative safety of the dream-state. This is where (usually) the body is paralyzed, autonomously, to keep one from acting out their responses to the psychedelic experiences in dreams, in the physical world. We are all subject to the experiences that we have, in dreams, and nature has provided us with a way from harming ourself, due to those (often intense) experiences.

This is not the case, with psychedelic drugs. Taken irresponsibly, many drugs cause a serious risk to those that take them, whether it be from dehydration (being active while on things like ecstasy), or bugging out due to hallucinations and, as a result of "running from oneself" - so to speak - causing yourself serious injury and/or death. One can relate to dreaming without having ever taken a single psychedelic drug in their life. Having no experience in drugs, in no way, cheapens one's experience in, or research of, the dreaming mind. Sure, the two are similar, and sure, drugs can cause a dreamlike state, but to say a site about dreaming with no (even though that is not the case we are intending) discussion about psychedelic drugs is a "castration" of the concept of the site, itself, is, by no means true. At all.

Damn, your good. You almost got me convinced.
I have to remobilize my troops..
I didn't say that dreaming is exactly the same taking psychedelic drugs, but they both fall under the same larger category of psychedelic experiences. They are sister topics, with a lot of common ground.

I care about this forum deeply, and I want it to be a good forum.

In my opinion, dismissing psychedelic drugs discussions will greatly damage the forum.

In response to Michael

Yes but the point being made is that discussing experiences with drugs and drug talk can give the drugs a little more credibility, because you talk about your experiences it makes the drug seem a little more safe to an individual because you have tried it and nothing happened. I just don't see why its necessary to brag about drug experiences, we don't want anyone on here getting into drugs, i mean there maybe many youngsters out there who are curious about drugs, because alot of drugs carry a label of being unsafe they are automatically avoided by the majority. But if your talking about your experiencing saying that it was good and you had no problem with it it is likely that someone could pick up on that and think that the drug isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Seriously though, can't drug experiences at least be reduced to PM form.

I see your point seeker, but shouldnt freedom of speech play a part in this? Kids have their freedom to come on this site IF their parent allow them to use the internet. Kids can find anything on the internet, I know I did at a young age.

If their parents let them on the internet, that isnt our fault.

Originally Posted by Michael

Dreaming can be just as dangerous as drugs. People sleep walk out of windows, drive sleeping, all sorts of stuff. At least on drugs, your awake and know what your doing.

This is why I put (usually) in parentheses. The difference is that sleep-walking is a natural occurrence, and is not brought on deliberately, in the common sense, by taking a substance. No amount of "positive discussion" about sleep walking is going to be able to make someone go out and decide to try sleep-walking. Therefore, discussion about sleep-walking is not something that stands the chance of causing someone to sleep-walk out of a window, or get in their car and drive, while sleeping.

And rational, strong-minded people that know how not to "over-do" their hallucinogens, and keep themselves in check, know what they're doing. Many people that take psychedelics completely freak out and do not know how to handle themselves. I've seen this happen many times. It often takes a room full of friends to keep that person calm and out of any dangerous positions, until their trip wears off. I may know what I'm doing. You may know what you're doing. But I can guarantee that there is a very large number of people out there who have absolutely no idea what they're doing, and many of them don't wait to get full knowledge, before deciding to try something new.

Originally Posted by dodobird

I didn't say that dreaming is exactly the same taking psychedelic drugs, but they both fall under the same larger category of psychedelic experiences. They are sister topics, with a lot of common ground.

You are correct. They are sister topics - which, like I said, made such a decision to limit their discussion very hard for many of us to reach an understanding on. There is absolutely no way that we can make such a decision without stepping on someone's toes. It sucks, I know, but better to err on the side of caution.

In response to Michael again

Okay, i understand you, but i do believe that if you are posting your own experiences it is very irresponsible because if that falls into the hands of a youngster you don't know what could happen. I don't know how old you are but i'm sure you know that drugs are not toys, you need to be a little bit more responsible.

So your basically saying it is okay to post your experiences and its okay if someone picks up from your experiences and thinks "well if it was okay for him, then it should be okay for me". Do you see my point? Oh and don't use the "Freedom of Speech" argument, you know darn well that talking about your own experiences is irresonsible in a way.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

This is why I put (usually) in parenthesis. The difference is that sleep-walking is a natural occurrence, and is not brought on deliberately, in the common sense, by taking a substance. No amount of "positive discussion" about sleep walking is going to be able to make someone go out and decide to try sleep-walking. Therefore, discussion about sleep-walking is not something that stands the chance of causing someone to sleep-walk out of a window, or get in their car and drive, while sleeping.

And rational, strong-minded people that know how not to "over-do" their hallucinogens, and keep themselves in check, know what they're doing. Many people that take psychedelics completely freak out and do not know how to handle themselves. I've seen this happen many times. It often takes a room full of friends to keep that person calm and out of any dangerous positions, until their trip wears off. I may know what I'm doing. You may know what you're doing. But I can guarantee that there is a very large number of people out there who have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

you're right, i cant argue with this.

edit: This isnt something I'm going to leave the site over so it's not a huge deal to me. I just liked to be able to talk about this stuff. It was one of the things I liked about this site. Thats just one more downgrade, but not something to leave over. That would just prove drugs are too important to me.

Originally Posted by Michael

Thats just one more downgrade, but not something to leave over. That would just prove drugs are too important to me.

Well said.

Drugs are not a popular thing among many of todays society, in fact people are cast out because if it, they go to jail. I think that if you want to discuss drugs and your experiences you should find a forum which is strictly people talking about drugs and their experiences. I'm not saying you can't talk about drugs on here, i just wish that you would try to be a little more responsible and consider other peoples well beings. Do you see what i'm saying, feel free to post stuff about drugs but i for one will be disappointed if you do continue to. I mean i have nothing wrong with you discussing drugs at all, but i do have a problem when you consider how young some of the members are on this forum.

I'm just thinking about the wellbeing of those younger than me because i know that some of them can easily trust what people say, its happened to me alot when i was younger, i took peoples word for it.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

In response to Michael again

Okay, i understand you, but i do believe that if you are posting your own experiences it is very irresponsible because if that falls into the hands of a youngster you don't know what could happen. I don't know how old you are but i'm sure you know that drugs are not toys, you need to be a little bit more responsible.

So your basically saying it is okay to post your experiences and its okay if someone picks up from your experiences and thinks "well if it was okay for him, then it should be okay for me". Do you see my point? Oh and don't use the "Freedom of Speech" argument, you know darn well that talking about your own experiences is irresonsible in a way.

I'm not irresponsible at all. I'm only 18 though, and have two brothers that are 14. I have NEVER EVER tried to introduce them into drugs or ever even bring up the subject around them. Thats why I understand this new rule, I just wanted to "try" to fight it. But it's all good.

edit: seeker, i am part of a drug forum, and think about it, kids could go on there too. but thats besides the point. I'm over it and i guess i admit defeat.

Originally Posted by Michael

... and have two brothers that are 14. I have NEVER EVER tried to introduce them into drugs or ever even bring up the subject around them. Thats why I understand this new rule,

I'm glad you said that because that's exactly where the new rules are coming from, in my opinion. Many people think that the anonymity of the Internet is a green light for irresponsibility and reckless discussion.

If I were to sit down with one of our 14 year-old customers (one of the guitar students, for example) and started telling them all about drugs - good or bad - I'd be nailed with law suits and restraining orders in a heartbeat. Well, the same level of consideration is in order here.

Thank you for understanding.

Originally Posted by Michael

I'm not irresponsible at all. I'm only 18 though, and have two brothers that are 14. I have NEVER EVER tried to introduce them into drugs or ever even bring up the subject around them. Thats why I understand this new rule, I just wanted to "try" to fight it. But it's all good.

edit: seeker, i am part of a drug forum, and think about it, kids could go on there too. but thats besides the point. I'm over it and i guess i admit defeat.

I know it must be very frustrating for you, don't admit defeat because i know that you are entitled to have your interests and beliefs, it would be unfair for me to say you can't talk about drugs, i am fine with you talking about drugs but i think that there are alot of people out there that happily accept things and take peoples word on things, just don't feel asthough i'm against you, i'm not, i just think that because this is such an open forum with members with a variety of ages that you cannot guarantee how responsible some of them are. Feel free to do as you wish, this is not an arguement, i am just trying to tell you that discussing drugs can sometimes lead to other things, its better to be safe than sorry. No hard feelings mate, feel free to do as you wish, i shall not stand in your way. I've said what i wanted to say now.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

I know it must be very frustrating for you, don't admit defeat because i know that you are entitled to have your interests and beliefs, it would be unfair for me to say you can't talk about drugs, i am fine with you talking about drugs but i think that there are alot of people out there that happily accept things and take peoples word on things, just don't feel asthough i'm against you, i'm not, i just think that because this is such an open forum with members with a variety of ages that you cannot guarantee how responsible some of them are. Feel free to do as you wish, this is not an arguement, i am just trying to tell you that discussing drugs can sometimes lead to other things, its better to be safe than sorry. No hard feelings mate, feel free to do as you wish, i shall not stand in your way. I've said what i wanted to say now.

sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't admitting defeat to you personally, just to the idea that drug experiences etc. should not be discussed here. I'm also not frustrated, I dont get angry easily by any means. I simply read all the arguments, made my own, and realized that I was wrong for this debate. That's what they are all about. Most people just never admit they were wrong so it's rare to see.

Many people on this site are 14-16 and shoudlnt be influenced by these threads. Kids that research the subject on their own have no way of being stopped and it's nobody's fault except their own. No parenting or anything could stop them and hopefully they wont abuse like I used to.v

Originally Posted by Sandform

Yes, the law is hypocritical, but he isn't in charge of the government, all you can do is go out and vote.

The gov. works kind of like this in respect to those subjected to it.

Law: Don't wear green or we will kill you.

It is a stupid law...but are you gonna wear green?

I would wear nothing but green . I'd start gathering support and build a green society, for the sake of being free to decide my own destiny; my own life. As long as I'm not harming anyone else with it that should be fine and if they'll kill me for it.. So be it.

Nothing in my Life is more precious to me than my Freedom. I would die trying to protect it.

And Oneironaught,
I'm glad to hear I'm understood. I see that all that has motivated you to side with the decision was peer pressure from higher up. And higher up and higher up; Political influence reaches a long way. But in the meanwhile the long arm of the rediculous "war on drugs" having reached out so far that it's even damaging fundamental freedoms right here has serverely damaged the atmosphere and respectability of this forum.

I must admit that I simply don't feel comfortable around here anymore. Once again it is politics that devides us. Well it's allways the Oldest sayings that hold the most truth. "Divide and Rule" is a Tool of politics that reaches out very far and that is manifesting itself here too; It is what is turning civilised discussions into flaming fights and the once so pleasant atmosphere here into a very hostile, "watch what you say"- atmosphere. It's really too bad, 'cause when I joined this forum well over a year ago that certainly wasn't the case.

But now this whole thing has been mutually understood and there are obviously no hard feelinsg and nothing but respect and understanding between us, no matter how divided we stand on this issue. You, Oneironaut, Ophelia Blue, Seeker, Dodobird, Volcon, DeadDollkitty, Shaft monkey, Sandform, Burns and many other members that don't directly come to mind are in my eyes very respectable members simply because you are kind and understanding. Decent and civilised enough to, no matter how much you may disagree with me, still always be able to keep things civilised and kind.

There's another group of people who are the exact opposite of you; Intolerant, rude, offensive, naïve and unable to discuss civilised and constructive. I'm affraid some of these people have also gotten Mod- and Admin- status'es which is not serving this forum well.
Now you're going to see a change if you haven't seen it allready: A group of people, similairminded to me, feel unwelcome and "shut up" because of their views. Many more besides me are now considering to leave because they hold their Freedom dear and they are now, with me, looking for alternative forums. I was actually planning to make one myself. A simple one where this negative mentality will not hinder discussion.

I'm affraid that with the leaving of all those "Psychedelic people" that DV is gunna loose alot of really intelligent, brightminded people.
Witchhunting ain't over yet I'm affraid.

Originally Posted by SKA

And Oneironaught,
I'm glad to hear I'm understood. I see that all that has motivated you to side with the decision was peer pressure from higher up.

I do understand, yes. But let me make it clear - since you may not be aware - that I was probably the single most vocal lobbyist in favor of setting limits on drug discussion, way before this really became the issue it it now.

But make no mistake, I had plenty of support behind the scenes. And the ultimate decision was made without any direct input or consultation with me. After all, I have no power around here but what some might perceive.

My point is simply that I did not cave to pressure from above as you may believe. I was part of that pressure on some level. But my degree of influence is unclear, even to me.

The foundation of my argument is - and always was - that there should be some sort of limits to the amount of boasting and glorifying of drugs that is tolerated. It started because, at the time, there was a rash of posts, pictures and chat talk that were blatant attempts to glorify illegal (and dangerous) drug use. But, the fact that any administrative action has been taken - and the severity of that action - was completely out of my control.

Things like a posted photo of a member snorting lines of cocaine, posts where people are saying how awesome and fun it is for them to pop pills and shit. An entire thread by one member where he's bragging about his "hard life" and "extensive hard drug" usage coupled with a glorification of thug life. And at that same time, there was a problem with chat abuse, as well as every conversation in chat turning into 'how many lines some one did last night and how much more effective crank/coke is when injected, rather than snorted. All of that shit was crossing the line (and arguably, breaking some rules): even with the rules that were in place THEN. My essential rant was primarily for the enforcement of exsisting rules, explicit and understood.

As I've said, I agree that many of the drug laws are bullshit. I whole-heartily believe, for example, that marijuana should be legalised in America. I also believe that it's possible to discuss drugs in a responsible manner. I've also done some of the things that aren't appropriate for discussion; I've been to jail for them. So please don't think I'm trying to play some moral, holier-than-thou, pedestal game. I'm not. The problem is that there is a very fine line that's hard to toe without crossing over. And a number of people were getting awfully brazen and willingly leaping over that line. Several of them have been banned anyway.

I must admit that I simply don't feel comfortable around here anymore.

And that's the thing I regret about this turn of events.

It is what is turning civilised discussions into flaming fights...

I think it's being discussed in a rather civil manner actually. Especially given that fact that some people clearly upset and not happy about this.

But now this whole thing has been mutually understood and there are obviously no hard feelinsg and nothing but respect and understanding between us, no matter how divided we stand on this issue.

Well, I thank you. I always have and always will have great respect for you, SKA. I'm sorry to have to be divided over this issue.

...they are now, with me, looking for alternative forums. I was actually planning to make one myself. A simple one where this negative mentality will not hinder discussion.

I'm sorry that any member feels that way. I can only hope that those who are set on leaving would consider being part of this forum and another, rather than leaving completely.

I'm affraid that with the leaving of all those "Psychedelic people" that DV is gunna loose alot of really intelligent, brightminded people.

And I'm sad to have to agree.

Originally Posted by SKA

I must admit that I simply don't feel comfortable around here anymore. Once again it is politics that devides us. Well it's allways the Oldest sayings that hold the most truth. "Divide and Rule" is a Tool of politics that reaches out very far and that is manifesting itself here too; It is what is turning civilised discussions into flaming fights and the once so pleasant atmosphere here into a very hostile, "watch what you say"- atmosphere. It's really too bad, 'cause when I joined this forum well over a year ago that certainly wasn't the case.

I'm really sorry that you feel that way, SKA. I've always respected you and figured you to be a very contributive(word?) part of this community. I hope you don't feel that others simply having an opposite view from your own (and having to enforce rules based upon those views) as an attempt to "play politics." There are very sincere reasons (many of which were stated) to the rules that have been put in place. None of them are meant to "divide and rule" anyone.

I admit that I feel some level of offense at having views that I agree with (even if the flack isn't toward the way I present myself, personally) evaluated as something as hollow as a political Tool, but I understand your position. It would be a shame to lose a member like yourself to something like the inability to speak on a subject such as recreational drug use - which definitely carries the possibility of dire, negative, consequences, if the information is either misinterpreted or disregarded - when it does not pertain to dreaming. What you decide to do, though, is your decision, and I'm simply trying to say that I wish you could find some way to stick with us to continue to promote what this forum is supposed to be about, and not hold too many hard feelings toward us over something that was, already, hard enough for us to impose and enforce with having to deal with the recognition that we may seem to be turning a cold shoulder to many of our respected members.

Whichever way you decide to go, just know that these rules were not put in place to deliberately oppress any party, and that our (collective) willingness to allow drug discussion that pertains to dreaming is an attempt to be as diplomatic about the entire issue as possible.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I'm really sorry that you feel that way, SKA. I've always respected you and figured you to be a very contributive(word?) part of this community. I hope you don't feel that others simply having an opposite view from your own (and having to enforce rules based upon those views) as an attempt to "play politics." There are very sincere reasons (many of which were stated) to the rules that have been put in place. None of them are meant to "divide and rule" anyone.

I admit that I feel some level of offense at having views that I agree with (even if the flack isn't toward the way I present myself, personally) evaluated as something as hollow as a political Tool, but I understand your position. It would be a shame to lose a member like yourself to something like the inability to speak on a subject such as recreational drug use - which definitely carries the possibility of dire, negative, consequences, if the information is either misinterpreted or disregarded - when it does not pertain to dreaming. What you decide to do, though, is your decision, and I'm simply trying to say that I wish you could find some way to stick with us to continue to promote what this forum is supposed to be about, and not hold too many hard feelings toward us over something that was, already, hard enough for us to impose and enforce with having to deal with the recognition that we may seem to be turning a cold shoulder to many of our respected members.

Whichever way you decide to go, just know that these rules were not put in place to deliberately oppress any party, and that our (collective) willingness to allow drug discussion that pertains to dreaming is an attempt to be as diplomatic about the entire issue as possible.

Well Oneironaut, it's clear that you care, and I appreciate that.
I think some other staff members can learn a thing or two from you about being civil and diplomatic.

I pretty much ran out of ammunition here, so now for the doomsday weapon:
Why don't you out-law any off-topic discussion that can be dangerous?
How about parkour, free-running, sky-diving, cliff-hanging, motor-cycle driving, scooter driving, car driving, hunting, owning a gun, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking, red-meat eating, breathing polluted air while stuck in traffic, working in construction, fighting in a war.
I can go on and on, all these things are more dangerous than psychedelic drugs. I don't have the statistics, but still I'm sure that I am correct about this. Much much more people die or get hurt while doing these things.
Why not outlaw all these topics, which unlike psychedelics have very little to do with dreaming?