Thread: Freedom of speec--, Oops.

There is such a thing as a non lethal weapon against crime. There is such a thing as intelligence to create them. To say this kind of stuff is ultimately something that is needed is blinded. You wouldn't have spastics in society in the first place if we did it correctly. A taser hurts anyway. Therefore it's not non lethal. Because it's painful and causes damage.

When people are not educated then you have these kinds of tyranny and crime blossoming around the place with ignorance and immoral people rampant. What do you expect in a degraded society. That is what we deserve.

To argue that. "it's great". Or "it's his fault". Or "It's the police fault". Or "I'm on the fence I don't know but I know why I don't know here because I'm pretty intelligent that it's fairly balanced to a certain extent". And this kind of crap. Is all part of the dumbed down stupidity we face.

Bottom line. He got in the line of fire, and police are trained that we are the enemy.

Bottom line. He got in the line of fire, and police are trained that we are the enemy.

Not sure what you mean there; being that we are the police. Those police just happen to be idiots with no patience and probably hate their jobs.

In the end, the punishment did not fit the "crime". Hell, I wish more people were obnoxious like this guy. Anything is better than the silent ignorance we face everyday. Who cares if he disturbed the stupid presentation. I am sure it was pointless anyway like everything these days.

Not sure what you mean there; being that we are the police.

The police force gets orders to preach that no-one should take the law into their own hands, Let the 'police' decide. Even when they are not doing their job. Never question. We say "oh they are the police". Not really they are who we give our power away to. That's why they have all the power. And the police are puppets of other regulations. So the police is certainly not representing collective humanity. But the illusion that they are is pretty strong. If you think about it generally this has hi-jacked our ability to think for ourself and defend ourself.

The punishment may not fit the crime. That's because we aren't the ones involved in the justice of it or it would fit the crime. It fits the crime to those abusing power. Now It makes sense who is policing. If you get the picture it should be clear already.

Seriously, there were like 6 guards standing there and they couldn't have taken him down without using the taser? Doesn't say much for their abilities as officers...

It almost seemed like that guy was on drugs or something, the way he was yelling and flailing around. And everyone else is just sitting there, really amused at what they are seeing.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

First of all, I wrote a good reply to this just before my computer crashed ... *take 2*

I don't believe that what I posted had much to do with what you said, but I'll humour you anyways...

If you are arguing that the guy was a jerk, then I agree. The only thing you posted that I don't agree with is when you said that he was a leftist (A leftist complaining about oppression? Yeah right... (no pun intended)), he was as right-wing as they get.

I'll also take the time to explain my previous post a little further. What is America's view of itself on the world? The land of opportunity, free of any form of oppression and bursting at the seams with freedom, right? Well, when the rest of the world (which is pretty tired of America's righteous, high and mighty attitude, by the way...) sees something like this, it doesn't think "Wow, that loudmouth asshole disrupted a well organized political speech, how dare he surpass his allotted time!". No, instead it thinks "Wow, officers of the law violently subdued a man for speaking his mind!". So you can't blame us for finding it a little hypocritical when the US criticizes every little human rights violation that takes place abroad (which you generalize in the same out of context way that we generalize this incident).

As for why I don't believe in democracy, that's another topic for another time (but I'd be more than happy to present my arguments if you started a thread about it)...

That guy was not right wing by any stretch of the imagination. The loonie land conspiracy stuff he was spouting is completely a left wing phenomenon. Also (I hope everybody pays attention to this because I keep having to say it.), the guy was not arrested for speech, and he was not arrested just for going over his allotted time. It's not like he went over the allotted time and was immediately put in handcuffs. He blatantly refused to give up a microphone that was not his, and he pulled a spectacle that fit the defininition of disturbance of the peace. Then he refused to go with the officers, and then he resisted arrest. That is a lot of things. The taser was not have been completely necessary. People were arrested just fine before the taser was invented. However, it made things easier and safer for the officers, and I have no sympathy for the horrible temper tantrum baby in a college boy's body, so I am all for the use of the taser.

You tossed out the usual insults against my country, so I am going to give my usual response. Let me tell you ahead of time that I don't like having to say this stuff, but I also don't want to just sit there and say nothing when my country is unfairly insulted. If anybody judges the United States based on what a few officers did in the situation I just described and not on the fact that we led the fight to drive the Nazis out of western Europe when they were trying to take over the world and the fight to take down the Soviet Union when they were trying to take over the world and the fight to liberate Eastern Europe and the world record holding in donating foreign aid, then that person is looking for excuses to hate my country.

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

Yes, they have an obligation to allow a guy to ask a fucking question, Um, sorry to disappoint you.

He had his allotted amount of time. Why do you keep acting like the guy was up there for five seconds and had the microphone snatched before he even asked a question? Why do you keep acting like that not only happened but is also the only thing that happened?

Anyone aware observing properly can see the cops now getting more and more brutal using this taser weapon on people over and over for petty stuff. It's known as increasing tyranny and police state. Don't think they wont use the taser on you. If you don't stand up quick enough, or give them a wrong look.

HA! I think the tazer is a good harmless crowd control. If they just let every ignorant Tom, Dick and Harry speak their mind they'd never get anything accomplished. You think they have the time to sit around and listen to millions of opinions? Get a life.

Originally Posted by BeerJunkie

HA! I think the tazer is a good harmless crowd control. If they just let every ignorant Tom, Dick and Harry speak their mind they'd never get anything accomplished. You think they have the time to sit around and listen to millions of opinions? Get a life.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I read the police report. The prick was arrested for speaking, and Saddam Hussein was arrested for digging a hole in the sand. Bill Clinton was impeached for oral sex, Charles Manson was arrested for insulting The Beatles, Ted Bundy was arrested for womanizing, O.J. Simpson was arrested for yelling at his wife and the other day for being too loud at a hotel, Richard Ramirez was arrested for trespassing, Michael Jackson was arrested for jaymoonwalking, and Usaman Bin Laden is wanted for not wearing shoes in a restaurant.

Everybody here is speaking, so I am sure you are trembling right now.

Originally Posted by beerjunkie

you think they have the time to sit around and listen to millions of opinions? Get a life.

The tazer is not harmless it's a integration of police brutality under the disguise of so called category of 'non lethal weapons'. Which can be seen used in rather lethal ways in far too many cases. And you don't sit around and listen to millions of opinions. You design a system that integrates millions of opinions and sorts the most intelligent. It's called democracy. And you have no concept of freedom to suggest free expression would cause nothing to get accomplished.

That guy is how your suppose to act when your normal. Ok. He wanted to say something and he had basically no means to express it properly so he got frustrated and desperate. Just crying out for help really. You would be too if you understood a thing or 2 of what's going on. This is what happens when you have backbone. When you stand up for what is right. While everyone else sits there afraid of the police state. To brainwashed to get out of their seats. The entire event is a ridiculous thing to begin with. Kerry's speech is stupid. He doesn't deserve to be a speaker in the first place. Only a couple in the video cry out something is seriously wrong. You either know it by now, or your brainwashed. Pick a category. You'd rather call yourself a BeerJunkie and then tell others to get a life when they say something sensible.

While this guy was getting pretty loud, I still think he had every constitutional right to be up there asking that question. I don’t see why the cops rushed him so quickly either, I’m a criminal justice major in college currently, and from a family of cops, and I don’t really see what the guy did that was so wrong. Sure he was getting somewhat aggressive sounding, and maybe slightly disruptive, but that was no reason to go and take him down like that. The police just can’t get a good image on a college campus; remember the thing at UCLAs library? It was a pretty similar situation. I think a lot of it is police on a college campus either feeling very afraid of feeling as if they need to assert their authority over “kids”.

Don’t get me wrong, as I stated earlier, I’m pretty pro-police especially when they do need to step in, I think everyone has to agree that there are some situation that the police are extremely helpful in, but things like this is just getting them a bad image. It almost seems like the police are heading back toward the public image they had in the 60’s or so, more of the aggressive robots rather than community policing for the good of the neighborhood. Every time I see something like this and hear cops yelling “Get back, get back!” to on lookers, I just wish they would get overran by everyone watching, I’m sure that sounds pretty aggressive, but like Omnius said earlier, Abbie Hoffman was doing this same sort of thing, while violence can’t solve anything, just accepting what happens to people who assert their freedom of speech won’t either. It really does seem like freedom is slowly getting taken away while people just allow it to, and want to call anyone who hangs on to freedom “silly liberals”

Aldrich, your dam right. Now think even more outside the box and we are getting somewhere.

How is the tazer harmful?

Aldrich, he went over his allowed time. Would it have been a problem if he held the microphone for the next two days? It wasn't his. If you let somebody borrow your lighter or your make up mirror, they don't get to hold it for as long as they feel like it. That was just one of the problems.

Mystic. Just to clear one thing up, the taser is not a "lethal" weapon. It hurts like a bitch, yes, but (though things have gone wrong in a handlful of situations) it is not a lethal weapon. A lethal weapon is something that is used to cause fatal harm. A gun is a lethal weapon. A knife is a lethal weapon. A taser is not.

And I have no qualms about this guy standing up and asking his questions to Kerry. Whatever he wanted to ask, if you ask me, is fair game. I don't know how many of you have actually been to functions like this one, but I know that there is absolutely nothing more annoying than a guy that thinks he has all the right in the world to take all the time in the world to hog the mic. (There were people actually getting up and leaving because of this guy hogging the mic. I doubt that was because of the questions he was asking.) These things are scheduled events that operate on a time-table. This is something that everybody knows, before coming to said function. I don't care who you are, or how many good questions you have, in a democractic society (since the concept is being thrown around so much), if rules are set so that everyone should get an allotted time at a mic to ask their questions it is not in your authority to say "fuck you, I'll be here until I get done." Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Now, again, I think the cops could have handled it a little differently. I don't think these clips show it, but the reason he was tasered (or, the final reason as it was admittedly escalated) was that the lady cop was asking him to put his arm down. After everything that had happened, they had him on the ground and were, yes, arresting him (whether or not that was right is not what I'm touching on), but the lady cop made a clear order for him to put his arm down, and he had one hand still in the air, refusing to put it behind his back. (I'll watch these clips again to see if they show that, but I saw that on FOX, from another angle.)
He refused to put his arm down, obviously defiant. Even when he was screaming "don't tase me bro, don't tase me" he still had his arm in the air and refused to put it down. So..they tased him.

In the beginning, had he told them, politely "Ok, give me 15 more seconds, and let me ask these final questions and I'll be done" things might not have escalated. But he gave the cops, even when being asked quietly to leave the mic, a "step the fuck back, I can ask my questions" attitude, and things got out of hand from there. I don't think the questions that he was asking had much to do with it, it was his hostility and the subsequent reactions to it, that caused the whole thing.

Yep.

It hurts like a bitch, yes

The only difference between a gun and a taser is the way it's used and designed. I would rather not experience a taser would you? Both can result in harm and death. And sorry but intense pain is my definition of lethal use of a weapon. If you don't think a taser is harmful. Use it over and over. You will soon realize.

And I'm really tired of people who think they should defend events like the speech of kerry. This is just dumb defending that. Who cares if the timetable is disrupted. lol. So it should be.

Originally Posted by Mystic7

And sorry but intense pain is my definition of lethal use of a weapon.

Though it is not the actual definition of a lethal weapon. I understand your sympathy, but let's be real, here. You do not define something as something it is not. A weapon is used to hurt like a bitch. A lethal weapon is designed to kill. There are situations to where a non-lethal weapon can cause death, both those are anomalies. My mom carries a stun-gun (she also carries a gun, but that's beside the point ), so if she stunned some drunken guy that was trying to force himself on her, would you accuse her of using lethal force?

Originally Posted by Mystic7

And I'm really tired of people who think they should defend events like the speech of kerry. This is just dumb defending that. Who cares if the timetable is disrupted. lol. So it should be.

I'm not defending Kerry's speech. You should really pay attention. I'm defending the rights of other Americans to get their allotted time to speak, over one guy that wants to hog the fucking mic. What does that have to do with Kerry?

Originally Posted by Mystic7

And I'm really tired of people who think they should defend events like the speech of kerry. This is just dumb defending that. Who cares if the timetable is disrupted. lol. So it should be.

So you are for freedom of speech, except for John Kerry's? Kerry deserves freedom of speech too, and that idiot was infringing on it and the freedom of speech of the other people in that room who were waiting to ask questions. Freedom of speech is not the freedom to steal a microphone and talk over a presenter for an hour.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Would it have been a problem if he held the microphone for the next two days? It wasn't his.

Would it be a problem the Iraq war is started based on a lie and now still is killing masses of people and costing a fortune and overall a massive disaster. And your worried about the microphone? Where is your brains. This is not about ethics with these people. They already are murdering everyone. Don't worry about someone using a microphone.

Originally Posted by Mystic7

Would it be a problem the Iraq war is started based on a lie and now still is killing masses of people and costing a fortune and overall a massive disaster. And your worried about the microphone? Where is your brains. This is not about ethics with these people. They already are murdering everyone. Don't worry about someone using a microphone.

That does not qualify as a counterargument. You went off on a tangent and let my point stand. The issue is not my worry. The issue is a supposed injustice concerning a nut at a Kerry speech.

If you want to argue with me about the long term necessity of the war in Iraq which was partly influenced by WMD intelligence from six governments and the United Nations, read what I have said in the threads started for that issue and counter the arguments. You might want to take some lessons on what counterarguing is first.

so if she stunned some drunken guy that was trying to force himself on her, would you accuse her of using lethal force?

Lethal force is when you do something for no reason to someone. It has nothing to do with defending yourself against an attack. So no that is not lethal force of a weapon. Police use the taser with lethal force though. Haven't you noticed? That makes it a lethal weapon. Each generation gets worse. They wouldn't want to increase to full strength tyranny right away without proper preparation. It's the frog boiling in pot effect. That's why your accepting this so easily today. Having been conditioned for generations.

I like how Um thinks that the heroic efforts by our armed forces during WW2 excuses the criminals activity of the Police today. Listen to the founding fathers, Um, they said dissent is necessary to maintain this country in a state of liberty and equality. Dissenters have maintained this country's equilibrium since the beginning, and without them in the 1890s forming workers unions companies would practically have slave labor. If it weren't for them in the 1960s America may have very well swung into fascism as everybody had feared. Without them NOW we're going to continue to watch our elections manipulated, tragedies covered up and given fake stories, and our tax dollars going to death and destruction.

I called the cops criminal because they are breaking people's rights and slowly taking away people's dignity. We are slowly being run by a police state as free speech becomes "free speech zones" and as they escalate situations far beyond necessary means to maintain control.

And alloted time is bullshit. He had a question, he should be able to relate background info, ask a question and hear an answer. What world are we living in where the politicians get two hours and the citizens are limited to 10 seconds? The worst of it is if it was just about breaking time cutting his mic off would have been sufficient. The fact is the cops were acting pre-emptively before he even showed a single sign of disturbing the Peace. They were already there before even seeing his reaction to a cut off mic. If he had refused to leave the microphone stand on the basis that he deserved to be heard out (which I would still find justified) I could understand escorting him out of the building.

But they decided to be trigger happy and go in there... pretty much directly after the mention of Skull and Bones.

I wish I could be braver in protests and I always tell myself next time the police come to take away our rights and dignity I'm just going to be steadfast, non-violent, not resistant, but also in complete refusal to comply. Unfortunately I'm human, just like this guy, and if I really were brave enough to be arrested I'd probably be freaking out.

Originally Posted by Mystic7

Lethal force is when you do something for no reason to someone. It has nothing to do with defending yourself against an attack. So no that is not lethal force of a weapon. Police use the taser with lethal force though. Haven't you noticed? That makes it a lethal weapon. Each generation gets worse. They wouldn't want to increase to full strength tyranny right away without proper preparation. It's the frog boiling in pot effect. That's why your accepting this so easily today. Having been conditioned for generations.

Mystic...seriously...

I'm sorry to have to say this, but you have absolutely no concept of the meaning of the word "lethal." You have simply taken a word that you consider as "bad" and tacked it on to a definition that doesn't fit it. Doing something with reason is not "non-lethal" force. It is "self-defense." There is a difference.

You really need to look up the word lethal in a dictionary before you decide to ever use it again.

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

I like how Um thinks that the heroic efforts by our armed forces during WW2 excuses the criminals activity of the Police today.

You really need to start reading my posts more carefully or else being more honest about what you know I said. You just micharacterized my words yet again. Why do you do that? You also keep giving responses that show you refuse to take into account points I have made repeatedly. If you are not going to read my posts, then please don't respond to them.