Thread: ABC's John Miller Interviews Osama Bin Laden (1998)

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The Hussein regime was an enemy terrorist organization that did not merely use mercenaries for things as important as defeating the Soviet Union. They provided financial incentives specifically for suicide bombings against Israel, funded terrorist groups specifically for their terrorist purposes, and used WMD's in a terrorist attack on the Kurds. That is how they did things, and they saw us as their bitter enemy. You can't tell me that that was not a big problem.

Ya the last time they used WMD's on the Kurds? In the late 80's right? If that was a big deal for the USA you guys would have used you're good diplomatic relations with Iraq at the time to alleviate the situation for the kurds.

The truth is Iraq was not an imminent threat to anyone at all there was no imminent catastrophy at that point in time. Nothing sitting down and talking couldn't have fixed with time. The US approach was just ended up destabilizing a whole country and costing loads of unnecesary Iraqi and American casulaties. Furthermore I beleive the UN said their would be consequences for non compliance(which did happend) and that those consequences would be determined by the UN not by any country but by the UN!.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Do we need to talk about the word "support" again? You need to know the difference between having an alliance against a common enemy and actually supporting the evil deeds of a government. You talk about them as if they are the same thing. Also, even if you want to tell yourself we never cared about the Kurds, you are talking off point. The Hussein regime's terrorist attack against them showed what kind of government the Hussein regime was. They were a threat. That is the point, and you cannot realistically deny it.

A threat but not by any means an imminent threat as in they were not openly threatening war with any other country nor was a confrontation with a nighbouring country expected.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The leader we overthrew had Soviet ties, and we had to win the Cold War. So what you are saying was a dis on democracy was actually part of the ultimate act of preserving democracy. Does the Soviet Union rule Canada? No. We ended their existence, and taking out their partners in Soviet expansion was part of the plan, which was a plan that worked.

In that day and age Iran shared a border with the Soviet Union and Iran and the Soviet Union were the only two countries to have a coastline on the "Caspian Sea". Its not unreasonable to assume that Iran and the Soviet Union would have had a good relationship. and its not un reasonable to blame them for having one since Russia was a huge potential exporter/importer of Iranian goods.

Excuseme, dissing democracy? Britain and the US overthrew a democractically elected government and replaced it with a brutal tryant and im the one who is dissing democracy? The fact is Mossadeq was democractically elected.

You talk about the USA wanting to protect democracy. Your country went to extreme lenghts to arm and aide israel because they were a "democracy". Why not Irans (at the time) fledgling democracy? Why did you guys have to overthrow him and put in a dictator if protecting democracy was you're aim?

You could have done a number of things to foster a benifital relationship with the Iranian Democracy at the time. Your country could have given them large sums of Money as aide as you have been doing with israel. I have read statistics that claim that America has pumped a trillion dollars into israel so far. Im not sure if its true but if it is surely you could have diverted some of that cash. You could have donated arms to Iran like you have done to israel to help stabilize the countries democracy. You could have brought agricultural producsts at inflated (above market price) prices to help support the countries poor farmers, You could have exported below markter price (cheaper)food items to Iran to help make food cheaper.

an example of this would be Venezuelas relationship with Cuba. Venezuela sells Cuba Petrol at below market price because Cuba can't afford to pay the Regular market price and Venezuela exports petrol at cheaper (below market price) to Cuba to help keep gas as cheap as possible for Cubans.

The USA and Britain could have bolstered and strenghtened Irans democracy in any number of ways instead of overthrowing him, i gave a few suggestions myself above. All that did was exasterbate anti western sentiment in the region.
Now why did they overthrew him. The UK had a monoply of sorts over gas/oil fields in Iran (in the persian gulf). Iran derived little profit from their most important resource and in turn Britain made lots of profit from it.

I beleive Mosadeq tried to negotiate with Britain but the negotiations disintergrated and he nationalized the Oil putting the countries most important resource back into Iranian and out of foreign hands.

It was at this point that Britain enlisted the USA and together they ousted him from power. Mosadeq is widely viewedd today as an anti imperialist and the coup d'etat is widely regarded as an act of imperialsm. A similar fate happend to Guatemala when they tried to nationalize their most important resource and Railyway. The excuse ofcourse was an assertion of Soviet ties which if im not wrong turned out to be propaganda. Anyway im not an export on the Guatemala and UFCo situation.

Originally Posted by universal Mind

What does Chavez have to do with democracy, and what did the U.S. government itself have to do with a coup against him?

The United States has done more to create and preserve world democracy than any other country in history. Your freedom to say what you say on the internet is a result of that.

OK i admit that is true. The USA has. For example that thread i made about the American govs report. If the USA was in control of Palestine at the time the Americans would have allowed the arabs to have self determination and choose their own fate rather then the british option which has produced chaous.

Alleged involement of the USA in attempted coup I personally beleive there was american involvement in the attempted Coup in Venezuela just like there was in Irans coup and Guatemalas.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Our CIA, Senate, and previous presidential administration. Five other goverments. Officials at the U.N. Hussein's noncompliance with inspections. You call that non-evidence? The fact that we have not found the weapons is not proof that they never existed. We acted responsibly on information that came from many sources. Did Usama Bin Laden ever exist? Please give me his address.

That is not in itself evidence of WMD's. If there were said WMD'S in iraq then surely there would be a whistel blower or some documents discovered in Iraq? If someoen in iraq had knowledge of Weapons of Masss destruction you guys would of had it by now...but not. You have n't found it and you haven't had any credible sources that can lead you to any definitive proof.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Bush does not talk about WMD's now because they have not been found and the Hussein regime no longer exists.

haven't you heard any of bushes speeches? Iraq had to be free of that tryant dictator and the iraqy people had to be freed". What you should be paying attention is to what he is not saying. He is not talking about weapons of mass destruction. If he had any sold proof of the stuff he would have included something about them in his speecheds " the invasion of iraq was neccesary to disarm saddam from his WMD's and free iraq from a tryant" but his speeches now adays dont include talk about WMD's because his excuse feell through the floor. He is a politican trust me he wouldn't stop talking about his success in disarming iraqs WMD's if there were actual WMD's discovered.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

ONCE AGAIN.... Every person is an individual. You are not getting revenge on the 1948 settlers by killing today's five year olds. I don't know how to shake you out of your view that they are all one superorganism with a single mind. Individuality... Explore the concept. Now please answer my question... Why do children who were born in Israel deserve to die? You have obsessively dodged that question.

To answer youre question I don't think israeli children deserve to die at all but i think Palestinians should be able to do whatever need be to free their country from the Usurpers. I don't care if they were born there thats irrevelant to me. YOu can break into my house and lock me in teh closet for 40 years and raise a family with all the children born in my house and still the house is not yours. palestine is like that house in my opinion.


[quote=Universal Mind]Fuck all prejudiced bullshit forms of government that favor one religion over others. It is not legitimate government. Democracy of equality is the only way. I know that Israel is not quite all the way there. They need to be. I wish you would get it out of your head that all Israeli Jews are a single organism and that all Arabs in the region are a single organsim. They are not. You sound just like KKK members talking about black and white people. Individuality is never acknowledged by the KKK. They talk about the white race as if it is one person and the black race as if it is one person. That is the type of thinking you are showing. [QUOTE]

Umm no im not a white or arab supremacist at all. I don't think one race is superior over onother and such an idea is just ludicruous.

I think the palestinians need to reclam their homeland thats all.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't believe in a "Jewish" state either, but what you want to do is just as unjust as what happened to Arabs in Israel in 1948. I can assure you that the conflict will continue as long as enough people think in the group terms you think in. You have no idea how much I wish all Muslims and Jews in the Middle East could understand that. The situation reminds me of a dog chasing its tail. It is so fucking absurd.

How can people stop thinking in group terms? The region is divided relegiously,racially and lingustiically lots of Israeli arabs dont speak Hebrew and lots of Israeli jews dont speak Arabic.And plus the communities tend to live apart in different municipalities although there are exceptions like Jerusalem and Haifa and even then its divided by nighbourhoods or "ghettos" if you wanna call them that. Its all sepereated by group. Its not like in the USA where you have lots of mixed neighbourhoods. IN Palestine/israel there is not much group interaction socially at all. Actually i heard from an israeli jew that the relationship between jews and arabs is that of master over slave. But to be fair the israeli jew is on the arab side so hes probably biased.

Originally Posted by Universal MInd

60%? I seriously doubt it. 1948 was 60 years ago.

I meant to say something like 60% plus of israelies have a FAMILY HISTORY of only 60 or so years at the most in the region. Ok lets calculate that again ok. S'fardie and Mizrahi jews only make up about 30-45 percent of Israels population. they only date back for the most part to after israels inception, look up Jewish exodus from arab lands again and you will know what im talking about. In the 1990's Israel received atleast 1 million soviet immigrants. So there we have it atelast 50 percent probably more of Israeli jews only have a family history of atleast 60 or so years in the region. You can't argue with numbers.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What exactly do you have against my idea of a democracy where all religions are treated equally? Why are you so stuck in the one religion versus another idea? Don't you want that shit to end?

Keep on dreaming not gonna happen.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

One man's freedom fighter is another man's prejudiced moron who needs to come out of the stone age and learn about democracy and equality.

UMMMM NO.