Thread: So this is my theory

OK, well, it sounds like you know more about t than I do. That doesn't mean you actually DO.... but it certainly sounds that way

I'll concede that I don't really know much about the subject, I was just repeating what I thought was common knowledge... a dangerous thing to do, I know. At this point I stop spouting off my own assertions that I've just learned might be ignorant, and until I educate myself further I won't go talking about it like I know what Im saying.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

This isn't a theory. It's a hypothesis.

Hey, thanks so much for clearing that up.
But for all i care it's hyppopotamus, I was just saying something.

"Statement" works for you ? I hope so otherwise this whole thread is useless because I called it
a theory.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

A lot of schizophrenics think they are Jesus. Are they perceiving their Jesus status correctly? What about schizophrenics who think Lincoln is still the president?

Work at a mental health center for one month. It will totally rid you of any belief that psychotic people are tapped into higher levels of perception. You will realize that they are just chemically out of balance and need medicine.

You got me wrong.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

OK, well, it sounds like you know more about t than I do. That doesn't mean you actually DO.... but it certainly sounds that way

I'll concede that I don't really know much about the subject, I was just repeating what I thought was common knowledge... a dangerous thing to do, I know. At this point I stop spouting off my own assertions that I've just learned might be ignorant, and until I educate myself further I won't go talking about it like I know what Im saying.

Hey! Congratulations. That's probably the first time I've seen someone admit that on these forums, or any forums!
Humility is a great virtue.
Yeah I admit I don't know THAT much, but I know a bit, I've researched mental illness for a fair while now, but I don't have any degrees or anything. Probably a good thing lol

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

Hey, thanks so much for clearing that up.
But for all i care it's hyppopotamus, I was just saying something.

"Statement" works for you ? I hope so otherwise this whole thread is useless because I called it
a theory.

I'm simply pointing out that if you want to be taken seriously you need to choose your words carefully, and use them correctly.

I honestly don't think any mental "illness" is an illness at all. Just a different mindset and thinking. I'm talking about schizophrenics and dementia and stuff like that. Not depression.

That's why so many people are afraid of drugs. They associate drugs with madness. When really.. that "madness" that they perceive is just a different mindset. So I'm kind of like a shaman in a way, I welcome madness to an extent.

You know that's two of the worst problems with drugs.
This statement goes two ways. (And I disagree with you on which mental illnesses are mind states, I actually think it's the complete opposite to what you said.)
Mental illness for the most part (anxiety, depression (besides major depression) etc.) is just a mindset, which is why pharmaceutical drugs such as anti-depressants do not work. People just have to get themselves out of that way of thinking.

Also, people do associate drugs with mental illness, mostly illicit drugs even though alcohol causes early onset dementia, depression etc. But yeah since the war on drugs and bullshit storied about people going insane forever after taking a hallucinogenic, people have started to fear that.

You see in Eastern cultures, anybody having a bad trip doesn't go "fuck I'm going to be like this forever" like some people in Western cultures do because that's been imprinted in their brain from all the propaganda. Eastern cultures think "ok this is the plants spirit emptying me of all the bad spirits/energy". Which is a lot better mind state to have while tripping. The anxiety some westerners get, thinking they're gonna be stuck like that forever, just exacerbates the whole trip and makes it last longer and makes the negative effects afterward last longer. Even though it will never last forever, it is anti-drug bullshit which has made people think it will, and thus it does last longer and is more terrifying than if people had taken a rational approach or mystical approach to the whole psychedelic realm.
Unless you're one of those lucky people who never has bad trips.

Also this is one of the reasons why people with mental illnesses do not get better very often. Western culture tells us "we will never cure it, but we can get rid of it as much as possible" So when people get to the point that it's as subtle as they think is possible, they stop trying to get rid of it.
Of COURSE you can cure mental illnesses, all of them you can. The brain is completely new every 7 years. Every neuron is new. Why wouldn't you be able to completely get rid of it if you've got a whole new brain basically.

Same with alcoholism, people say alcoholics are addicted for life. HOW oh HOW can you be addicted to something that you haven't taken for 20 years? You can't! It's not possible!
It comes from when alcoholism was regarded as a disease ( this is the same thing with mental illness btw). People can definitely take another drink 20 years later and not over drink. They can drink every weekend after recovering from alcoholism and still drink moderately. But this idea of a disease makes them think that they can't.

It's the same with schizophrenia, for example once the anxiety of it all is gotten rid of, people can keep all the voices in their head etc. and be perfectly fine with it. It's the fact that people worry about the illness when it's coming on that makes it worse (just like bad trips, just like addictions, just like any other mental illness). Just because schizophrenia may be caused by some part of the brain malfunctioning, doesn't mean it's always going to be bad.

Damn, well I will deffintly remember what Tommo just said if I ever get a mental illness.

Hell yea, 7 year renewal!

Hehe, it's strange isn't it. Basically if you could look at all your cells, in your whole body now, in 7 years not a single one of them would be left, all replaced by new ones. So you're a whole new person basically lol

Originally Posted by tommo

Hehe, it's strange isn't it. Basically if you could look at all your cells, in your whole body now, in 7 years not a single one of them would be left, all replaced by new ones. So you're a whole new person basically lol

Wait so all brain damage is healed? Or?

No lol. Because brain damage sometimes prevents the brain from regenerating new cells.

Originally Posted by tommo

Mental illness for the most part (anxiety, depression (besides major depression) etc.) is just a mindset, which is why pharmaceutical drugs such as anti-depressants do not work. People just have to get themselves out of that way of thinking.

You are completely, utterly and spectacularly wrong. If it weren't for anti-depressants I'd have probably dropped out of school and become a lonely shut in, or possibly killed a family member or myself.

Anti-depressants work. Yes the side effects suck, but its better than going back into the fucking hole I just came out of.

Welcome to the placebo effect Alex!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Anyway, why would you kill a family member because you're depressed?

Anti depressants do not work, they work the tiniest bit (basically nothing) for very major clinical depression.
Other than that they do nothing, and the studies have proven this. http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/08...ntidepressants
Many people have known this for years, the problem at first was that nobody could get all the studies submitted to the FDA or TGA or
whichever countries equivalent regulatory body. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, anybody can get those studies, and a review of
all the studies submitted shows that anti-depressants are barely better than placebo.

From Tibetan Magic And Mysticism by J.H. Brennan:

Spoiler for Long post:

After the pupil had undergone several years of instruction, his Guru would admit there was nothing more to be taught. The pupil must seek a more advanced master; and not necessarily a human master.

At this point, the guru suggested his pupil evoke a yidam. A yidam iS a divine teacher who embodies an aspect of the enlightened mind and thus is held in special esteem by Tibetans. There are four main types: peaceful, powerful, wrathful, and increasing. Each manifests in its particular form in order to combat particular types of negative forces. A teacher of this type would, the guru claimed, be able to serve the pupil's needs throughout his life.

If the pupil agreed, it was usually with some trepidation. The evocation of a yidam was a perilous process and the yidam itself a dangerous entity. The whole thing had to be taken very seriously indeed.

As a preliminary, the pupil was set to study images of the deity. These were easily found since they illustrated many Tibetan scriptures. The creature itself was a fearsome-looking entity, but the study was prolonged and profound. Tibetan pictures of deities are stylized, and the smallest detail is often symbolic. The student made mental notes of everything about the yidam: skin coloring, clothing, ornaments, what the creature carried. All were important for the operation that was to follow.

The guru next instructed his pupil to find a suitable place for the evocation.It had to be isolated and remote since any interruptions could prove disastrous, but it had to be somewhere the pupil could stay for long periods of time. The guru suggested that his pupil find a cave, preferably at a high altitude, where no one was likely to visit.

When a suitable cave was found, the guru required his pupil to construct a kylkhor, a sort of magic circle designed to hold the yidam. Properly constructed, it ensured the deity could not attack his evoker.

The kylkhor itself took the form of a mandala, a complex symbolic diagram used in religious rites and as a focus of meditation. In Tibet it is believed to be a sacred area that functions as a collection point for universal forces and a receptacle for the gods.

Although mandalas may be painted on paper or cloth, fashioned in bronze, or even built in stone, the kylkhor used a different technique-the Tibetan art of sand painting. In a process that took months to complete, the disciple first cleared and cleaned a space on the floor of his cave. He then set about memorizing the names, lengths, and positions of the primary lines that defined the basic structure.

The pupil next began to practice the technique of sand painting, an exacting process. Six primary colors are used-white, black, blue, red, yellow, and green-but four of these (blue, red, yellow, and green) come in dark, medium, and light shades, giving fourteen hues in all. The sands are stored in small, convenient pots and are distributed by means of a tapered copper tube. The artist fills the tube with a particular color, closing off the narrow end with his finger. Then holding the tube at an angle, he gently strokes it with a rod. The stroking motion causes the tube to vibrate and release a thin trickle of sand. With practice, Tibetan monks learn to releaseas little as a single grain at a time.

Once proficiency had been developed, the pupil set about constructing a full-scale kylkhor. First, he marked out the major axes and four baselines using chalk strings that had been blessed by his guru. Then, working from the center, he started the painstaking task of building up his picture.

A typical Tibetan mandala consists of an outer enclosure inside of which are one or more concetric circles, which in turn surround a square. Lines run from the center to the corners of the square, dividing it into four triangles.In the center five circles contain images of deities, with this pattern reflected in the middle of each triangle. There are four borders. The innermost depicts lotus leaves, the symbol of spiritual rebirth. Outside of that is a circle of eight graveyards, symbolizing aspects of cognition. Then comes a circle of diamonds, which stand for illumination. The outermost border is a ring of fire to bar the entry of ignorance.

Clearly, the memorizing and reproducing a picture of this complexity requires an impressive proficiency in the art of visualization. But that's only the start. Although parts of this picture involve large areas of color, others comprise lines so fine they are no more than a grain or two of sand in width. The concentration needed to draw such lines is immense. Furthermore, as the pupil begins to stroke the tapered copper tube, it vibrates with a distinctive sound. The sound is hypnotic. Also, the pupil will also be chanting a mantra-a magic formula of words sometimes up to 5000 syllables. After a period of time working on a sand mandala, the artist passes into a state of trance.

Only when the pupil mastered the concentrations, visualization, and trance state necessary to complete a sand mandala perfectly did his guru permit him to proceed with the yidam evocation.

Equipped with his newly developed skills, the pupil made his way to a high cave to begin the onerous task of constructing the kylkhor. When the kyllkhor was finished-a job that took months-the guru came to inspect it. If he was not satisfied, the entire diagram would have to be swept out and begun again.

Once the guru pronounced the kylkhor strong enough to hold the yidam, the invocation began. The main element was visualization. The pupil was required to seat himself outside the kylkhor and bend his mind toward imagining the deity so vividly it appeared to be physically present.

How long a Tibetan student remained in his cave until he was able to see the yidam depended on personal talent and stamina. Some managed the hallucination sooner than others. But eventually the task was completed. When the image stabilized, the pupil hurried down the mountain to tell his master.

The guru congratulated him on his progress, but warned him that simply evoking the diety to visual appearance-which he did with his feat of visualization-was not enough. If the entity was to become his teacher, he must be able to hear its words. Now he has to return to his cave and redouble his efforts until the yidam actually speaks to him. He must enter into dialog so he can seek its advice.

This aspect of the operation typically took less time than the initial visualization. The magician first heard the yidam's words in his mind, as if the entity was communicating telepathically. But with time, effort, and a great deal of concentration, the day came when the pupil heard the yidam in exactly the same way as he heard his guru.

When he reported this development, the guru again congratulated him, but told him that the operation was still not over. Now that he could hear the words of the deity, he must receive its blessing.

In Tibet, a blessing is an energy transfer accomplished by placing both hands on the communicant's forehead. The student now had to work in collaboration with the yidam until the creature solidified. When the blessing was given, the pupil had to be able to feel the deity's hands on his head. He must know that the yidam was physically present, solid, and real.

Some pupils never managed it, just as some never managed to see the yidam in the first place. But the successful ones eventually reported back that the deity was now a living, breathing creature who has manifested fully in the cave.

At this point the guru told his pupil that while an end to his work was clearly in sight, the pupil had to achieve one more thing. While he had evoked a teacher of unsurpassed wisdom, the yidam was of little use to him while it remains locked in the kylkhor. It must be persuaded to emerge from the magic circle so that it could accompany the pupil, lending him its strength, powers, blessing, and wisdom throughout the rest of his life.

Tibetan pupils often balked at this development since they'd been culturally conditioned to view the yidam as dangerous as well as useful. But the guru was able to give reassurance. The fact that the yidam had favored the pupil with his conversation and blessing indicated that the pupil was deemed worthy of the god's assistance. He need have no fear the yidam would ever harm him.

With this encouragement, the pupil returned to his cave and renewed his efforts. With time he succeeded. The yidam emerged from the kylkhor, took its place behind his left shoulder, and agreed to accompany him for the rest of his life.

Many pupils accepted this at face value and spent the remainder of their days guided by an invisible companion. They did so with the blessing of their gurus, who assured them they now had access to a master with the very highest degree of wisdom.

But a few developed doubts. They were unable to shake off the suspicion that the yidam was not a yidam at all, but rather a construction of their own mind, with no reality outside it. When the student returned to his guru to confess, he was immediately sent back to his cave with instructions to pray and meditate until such unworthy thoughts were rooted out.

Unfortunately, once doubts take hold, it is very difficult to escape. Try as he might, the doubts remained.

"Do you not see the yidam?" the guru asked his pupil, who admitted that he did. "Do you not hear him, can you not touch him, do you not feel the energy of his blessing? Is he not as solid and real as the mountains around you?"

The student readily agreed to all this, yet he was now more convinced than ever that the yidam was a product of his mind.

And here the guru sprang his trap, for it was only the doubters who interested him. He told the pupil that the yidam really was no more than the product of his mind, but it was no different from the mountains, the cave, the sands that make up the kylkhor. No different, indeed, from anything else.

Everything in the physical world, without exception, was a product of the pupil's mind.

I enjoyed that Dannon was pretty cool. It would be cool to actually go through such a process

nice charismatic and emotional story but I don't buy it

Although parts of this picture involve large areas of color, others comprise lines so fine they are no more than a grain or two of sand in width. The concentration needed to draw such lines is immense. Furthermore, as the pupil begins to stroke the tapered copper tube, it vibrates with a distinctive sound. The sound is hypnotic. Also, the pupil will also be chanting a mantra-a magic formula of words sometimes up to 5000 syllables. After a period of time working on a sand mandala, the artist passes into a state of trance.

so he was chanting mantras while positioning grains of sand? the slightest breath will destroy the entire thing, however even if he chants it in his mind the slightest breath might destroy months of progress. Also if they do acquire these imaginary friends and get the so-called "wisdom" good for them, to me though they appear greatly deluded, willfully deluded in fact through their own lack of volition.

Given enough mental strain and isolation, visualization and practice in a far away cave I thing I will have a great amount of success in summoning a version of pamela anderson in her 20's that I would also convince myself contains infinite wisdom and that only I can see. wow- this is actually a good idea if I ever have several years worth of vacation I should do that. The moral = destroying your skepticism is not something that should be applauded - it should be ridiculed.

Originally Posted by tommo

Welcome to the placebo effect Alex!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Anyway, why would you kill a family member because you're depressed?

Placebo effect? Try again. I'm a third year psych student. Why would I kill a family member? Because I was living in a very small house with 3 other people basically living in each others pockets. When my depression came on it was slow, almost imperceptible. Over a period of 2-3 months I went from a happy cheerful and all round nice guy to the most moody, rude, insufferably little prick. It felt like I was utterly incapable of happiness ever again. The world was dark, dank and hostile. The day I finally got help? When I was walking through town and felt like everybody - THOUSANDS of people - were looking at me, staring and whispering about me. I instantly knew this was extreme paranoia and I got HELP.

You can quote any study you like, I really couldn't care. I know the drugs work. I've seen them work in myself, in my brother, my mother, and three of my best friends over the last 10 years. In less than three days after taking them I was back to my old self, after 2 weeks most side effects had subsided and life was back to normal.

You can placebo effect yourself until the cows come home. You're 100% incorrect on this issue. I stake my life on it.

To Alex and tommo: My opinion on the issue is somewhere in the middle. I have taken anti-depressants before and I didn't feel they did much to improve my well-being; but they kept me going long enough to be able to make some positive changes to the situation.

I don't feel drugs are an answer; and I have read that a significant portion of their effect is placebo. But crucially, not all. They are an important stopgap measure to get your head under control so you can actually make the changes to your lifestyle without going into a depressive spiral at every little thing.

Originally Posted by Lseadragon

To Alex and tommo: My opinion on the issue is somewhere in the middle. I have taken anti-depressants before and I didn't feel they did much to improve my well-being; but they kept me going long enough to be able to make some positive changes to the situation.

I don't feel drugs are an answer; and I have read that a significant portion of their effect is placebo. But crucially, not all. They are an important stopgap measure to get your head under control so you can actually make the changes to your lifestyle without going into a depressive spiral at every little thing.

I'm sure there is a definite point where drugs are indeed needed, but often this point is arrived to gradually by not really "maintaining your mental state"

Originally Posted by yuriythebest

I'm sure there is a definite point where drugs are indeed needed, but often this point is arrived to gradually by not really "maintaining your mental state"

The depression I'm talking about is not the kind where your experiences slowly build your apathy and you realize how wasted your life is becoming. That can be rectified without drugs, and you definitely should /not/ use drugs in that context. That's nothing to do with the chemicals in your head and everything to do with getting your shit together, hard as it may be.

I'm talking about the depression where you miss your train and so you're going to be late and everyone will be angry at you and I can't miss this again I can't fucking take this I just want to die so I don't have to do this. It's not rational, it's not something you can just snap out of, and it's NOT something you bring upon yourself. I might say it's caused by chemical imbalance in something like ignorance (I sure don't know about the chemicals in my head) but I am absolutely certain it's not the way you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Lseadragon

The depression I'm talking about is not the kind where your experiences slowly build your apathy and you realize how wasted your life is becoming. That can be rectified without drugs, and you definitely should /not/ use drugs in that context. That's nothing to do with the chemicals in your head and everything to do with getting your shit together, hard as it may be.

I'm talking about the depression where you miss your train and so you're going to be late and everyone will be angry at you and I can't miss this again I can't fucking take this I just want to die so I don't have to do this. It's not rational, it's not something you can just snap out of, and it's NOT something you bring upon yourself. I might say it's caused by chemical imbalance in something like ignorance (I sure don't know about the chemicals in my head) but I am absolutely certain it's not the way you're talking about.

ok

Originally Posted by Alextanium

Placebo effect? Try again. I'm a third year psych student.

Ohhhh, that makes sense now. Psych's notoriously do not listen to real science.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

Why would I kill a family member? Because I was living in a very small house with 3 other people basically living in each others pockets. When my depression came on it was slow, almost imperceptible. Over a period of 2-3 months I went from a happy cheerful and all round nice guy to the most moody, rude, insufferably little prick. It felt like I was utterly incapable of happiness ever again. The world was dark, dank and hostile. The day I finally got help? When I was walking through town and felt like everybody - THOUSANDS of people - were looking at me, staring and whispering about me. I instantly knew this was extreme paranoia and I got HELP.

Now I'm no psychiatrist (lol) but I'm pretty sure the definition of depression does not include paranoia.
And no, you didn't get help, you got drugs, ineffective drugs.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

You can quote any study you like, I really couldn't care. I know the drugs work. I've seen them work in myself, in my brother, my mother, and three of my best friends over the last 10 years. In less than three days after taking them I was back to my old self, after 2 weeks most side effects had subsided and life was back to normal.

SEEN, SEEN!!!!!!!! Do you even know the definition of scientific study?
What you've seen 'work' is due to the placebo effect, which we can gather by looking at the actual evidence comparing anti-depressants and placebos. Your mother could have been taking sugar pills and she still would have gotten better.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

You can placebo effect yourself until the cows come home. You're 100% incorrect on this issue. I stake my life on it.

Good for you! Showing that true psychologist trademark - willful ignorance.

Originally Posted by tommo

I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard you say "chemical imbalance" the way you say it here "just chemically out of balance" almost makes it seem like you're just saying it automatically now.

THIS IS A BULLSHIT CLAIM MADE MY BIG PHARMA TO SELL THEIR ANTI-DEPRESSANTS. FACT.
Get that through your head!
You cannot measure a persons chemicals in their brain, therefore nobody can know whether they are "chemically imbalanced" or not.

I'm actually almost convinced you work for a pharmaceutical company, either that or some mental health system where you've been fed this bullshit.

It's actually most likely caused by damage to certain areas of the brain or mis-wiring (two parts end up connected which shouldn't be etc.).

I didn't realize that post was there. Please tell me what you know about dopamine and serotonin. Explain why drugs that alter their levels successfully treat various mental illnesses. It is a scientific fact that they do, and I have watched it happen with my own eyes. What new age bullshit have you been blindly accepting?

Originally Posted by tommo

Ohhhh, that makes sense now. Psych's notoriously do not listen to real science.

The irony is palpable. Get your head out of your ass.