Thread: Mindwanderer's 'Blog'

So what do you suggest we do with dogs which kill people?

By dogs I assume you mean pet dogs. And do you mean dogs that HAVE killed people? Or dogs that DO kill people, as in reguarly?

If you mean dogs that HAVE killed someone, either through provoked or unprovoked attack, then they should simply be evaluated to be seen whether they can 'function' and thrive in a community swollen with human beings. If the dog is found to be extremely agressive, then rehabilitation is in order.

We give people who kill people second chances... even though those people often knew what they were doing, and had been living in society following it's rules for decades but for whatever reason decided to kill someone.

However, a dog that has killed someone is euthanized, even though it's brain doesn't function on a level of moral understanding like the human mind does... and even though the attack is often preventable.

This is like a child left to watch his/her baby sibling in the tub, and the baby drowns... or a child who kills a hamster by squeezing it too hard. Should they be killed? No. IMO we must treat animals with lower mental capacities like we do people with lower mental capacities (children, mentally ill).

People think animals are savages who just kill... but that's incredibly ignorant.

Dog attacks on humans aren't pre-meditated. The dog doesn't go into the situation thinking it's going to kill this person (though we can't tell for sure), and it doesn't have an understanding of laws.

Yet humans, who kill someone through recklessness (drunk driving etc) or on purpose get a bunch of time in jail, or in some cases little or no time in jail... even though the person knows what he or she is doing.

It's flabbergasting.

If we're going to take the responsibility of for whatever reason keeping these animals in our care, then WE must take responsibility for it's actions... because the dog sure as hell can't. If anything the owners of the animal that has made the attack should be fined or given a jail sentence.

If animals that attack people should be killed, then people who attack people should be killed. Humans can actually comprehend what they're doing, and they know right, wrong, and consequences. Dogs have none of that.

If anything animals should be given considerable slack when compared to humans.

...you think dogs can be rehabilitated?

I know they can. Humans aren't that special you know. Many other animals have the same psychological/behavioural versatility as humans. Animals have no less ability of behavioural reform than humans do... not to overgeneralize though... I'm speaking about the 'higher' functioning animals like cats, dogs, rats, moneys, dolphins etc.

The only issue is that people look at many animals as being lesser then us, and as such they figure it's no use 'wasting' their time. Makes me sad it does.

edit: In fact much of what we 'know' about humans, we learned from 'model species', like dogs, mice, etc.

Most violent dogs are illegal. Aggression is just in their genes.

Your egalitarian ideals simply don't fit reality.

Originally Posted by Xei

Most violent dogs are illegal. Aggression is just in their genes.

You'd think... but therein lies the question of nature vs. nuture. Statistically most attacks of pets on humans or on other pets are preventable. The cause could be provocation, or a lack of proper training on the owners behalf. Of course there are the few atypical cases that simply cannot be avoided for whatever reason. But a large portion of attacks are preventable... either by having raised/treated the pet properly, or having not provoked the animals, or by being responsible for your animals (taking precautions), or simply not having gotten a pet in the first place if you know you won't be able to handle it in the long run.

Originally Posted by Xei

Your egalitarian ideals simply don't fit reality.

I know, I said that.

*Hawaii on Watch*
When the Chilean earthquake, 8.8 mag, hit a few days ago the echoes of the Haitian earthquake still rung clear in my head. I turned to any news channel I could hoping to see what efforts are going on to help Chile but every channel, instead of focusing on what DID happen to Chile, they were all worrying about what MIGHT (and in the end didn't) happen to Hawaii. I'm still wondering why... I mean I know Chile wasn't hit quite as bad as Haiti, and I know the President had stated that as of yet they didn't need help... but many of these networks wasted a bunch of money on spending 6 or 7 hours focused on Hawaii when in the end no tsunami even hit. I mean isn't there shit going on the world that people need to be seeing? What's going on in the Middle East? What's up with Obama? Hows the LHC doing? There are so many important, and relavent things that are going on right now... yet for half a day those networks focused on what could happen to Hawaii. I dunno... I just think it's stupid. Even with the olympics and stuff... everyones eyes were on the olympics... and what was going on under the radar?

Anyways... there's rant numero dos.

Originally Posted by Xei

Most violent dogs are illegal. Aggression is just in their genes.

Your egalitarian ideals simply don't fit reality.

Before this continues, I'd like to know what experience you have with training dogs, Xei.

I ask because you sound as though you are speaking from a perspective of complete ignorance.

Always with the condescension. Why can't you manage polite conversation?

I've had four dogs and, being a good breed and brought up well, they are pretty well behaved.

Have you ever seen what happens when you try to raise a wolf as a pet?

Originally Posted by Xei

Always with the condescension. Why can't you manage polite conversation?

I've had four dogs and, being a good breed and brought up well, they are pretty well behaved.

Have you ever seen what happens when you try to raise a wolf as a pet?

I didn't intend condescension. I think we both just tend to interpret each other that way based on past interactions. Lets try to 'reset' that dynamic.

The general opinion is that there is no such thing as an untrainable dog. There are definitely owners that are incapable of training their dogs, but even wolves can be trained. I haven't ever had personal experience with pure wolves but I have had experience with many wolf dogs, and several that were half pure wolf.

There are definitely plenty of situations in which the dog should be separated from the owner, but rehabilitation is definitely possible with any animal and euthanasia is not the only answer.

If you didn't intend condescention then maybe a more sociable way to respond would have been along the lines of 'Why do you have that opinion; have you trained dogs personally? Because I have and your opinion seems very much at odds with mine'. Not 'you sound totally ignorant'.

This is a really interesting documentary about dogs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...fe_of_the_Dog/

I'm not sure if you can watch it outside of the UK, if not I'm sure it's on youtube. I found it extremely interesting.

Basically among other things it talks about how, even though there is a tiny difference in genetics, whilst domestic dogs can be trained, wolves are totally unresponsive. Their minds work in very different ways. Domestic dogs have basically coevolved with humans and have literally evolved to serve us. They have evolved to understand human gestures and there's evidence that the noises dogs make are purely an adaption to allow them to communicate with humans.

Sorry if it came off 'unsociable'. I realize 'ignorant' has some negative connotations but I almost never use it in that context and so I don't really think about it, and that is just the way I respond when I see someone saying things that are definitely not facts so matter of factly, which I also think is just your posting style since I do that too sometimes.

I can't see the documentary, but we are straying a little far from the topic. Wolves are a challenge, no question; but we were talking about dogs. Even the most aggressive dogs can be trained to behave well around people and other dogs and there is no "dangerous genes".

Pure bred pitbulls, rottweilers, dobermans, bull dogs, bull mastiffs, chow chows, etc. are all dogs that were bred to fight hunt and kill. I have personally cared for pitbulls, rottweilers, and chow chows and have had experience with all the other breeds I mentioned and when they are properly trained they can all be loving and gentle animals. It is easy to see how popular opinion and the unfortunate training of fighting animals has changed the way we think about these animals. Pitbulls were originally bred for sport fighting, but Ridgebacks were bred for hunting lions. Ridgebacks are by far more prone to aggressiveness (*with improper training) than pitbulls but pitbulls are the ones that have been visible in the media.

I would like to weigh in on the original topic as well. I said we were talking about dogs, but the original topic was about whales I think the situation with the whale is a pretty clear cut case that the whale should not be put down. The whale ultimately is a wild animal and was behaving in a way that is normal for that animal. The trainer was well aware of the risk involved and most likely had to sign a bunch of stuff saying as much. Obviously the animal shouldn't be used in shows with a human participant but I believe that was already the case with this whale anyway since it was older.

Handbags.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The general opinion is that there is no such thing as an untrainable dog. There are definitely owners that are incapable of training their dogs, but even wolves can be trained. I haven't ever had personal experience with pure wolves but I have had experience with many wolf dogs, and several that were half pure wolf.

There are definitely plenty of situations in which the dog should be separated from the owner, but rehabilitation is definitely possible with any animal and euthanasia is not the only answer.

Yes this is what I have learned as well. I've watched a trainer rehabilitate an "untrainable" dog that was due for euthanasia in a matter of a few days. I don't know about pure wolves, but my aunt has a dog that is half wolf and I have never seen a dog with a better more friendlier disposition.

I've seen Tigers, Bears, Hyenas, and yes WOLVES trained to the point where they have behaviour that allows them to exist around humans.

The fact is many people do not know how to properly train animals, and it's true... wolves brains do work differently... simply meaning they must be trained differently.

You here people say "Oh it's all cute now but when it grows up it'll be too much" and garbage like that. Well that's because people aren't responsible with their pets. Simple as that.

Also... can you feel the love in this thread or what?

Haha

Cesar Millan is my hero! Don't punish the dog! They would much rather be loved by a human then live in fear of humans. That's just how we bred them. And btw, spoiled rotten chihuahuas are still the meanest I've met!