German Victimization, WWII

[spockman]

Alright. Every nation has their darkspots. Some have darker spots than others. But has anyone else here noticed the blatant lack of blame put on the country of Germany for WWII? The way the school system puts it, and the way alot of popular films/literature put it, and the way people talk about the holocaust, you would think that Deutschland was totally victimized. That Hitler seized power from an unwilling populace with a giant revolutionary army of evil skinheads overnight. Then the people were brainwashed into thinking that the Jews/Rom were being sent to nice minority communities with picket fences. And everyone in Germany thought that the Polish were actually glad they had the Nazis to protect them from the Russians. And Nazi soldiers were widely believed to be mostly pleasant guys, really, who were pretty nice to the Dutch and the POWs. And the communists at home just fell over dead in their arm chairs, dying from natural causes. This is only talking about here in the U.S. public school system, (though I would be interested to know if this is true for other places though I can't speak for anywhere else.) Now I bear the nation no ill will today, but it angers me that those who voted Hitler in and watched the deportation of minority groups and witnessed the stripping of freedoms and the massacre of communists and threw the fuels of racism into the fire and supported the nationalists even after the SA made themselves a househould name aren't presented negatively. (If you disagree with my view of WWII, please explain why. Or if you have had different experiences in school/talking about it with the general public. But I have gone to high schools all over the country and it seems fairly prevalent.) How are we supposed to learn from the holocaust when the blame is placed on just a few psychotics? No, that isn't a question that can facilitate discussion well... Yeah, here's one. Why are we teaching about the holocaust in a way to make the average German look innocent? I am at a total loss.

[Universal Mind]

I am not sure how much of Germany supported what Hitler did to the Jews. Hitler was worshipped like a messiah for a while. The Germans and Austrians (Germany annexed Austria without a fight. The Nazis convinced the Austrians that they could save their country.) thought he was just some charismatic genius with great economic plans that would save their countries. However, once he started revealing what he was really about, it did freak a ton of people out. Unfortunately, it was too late then. His government had too much power, and anybody who showed the slightest dissent got shipped off to be killed. The activities of the death camps did not become public knowledge until after the war. I am not sure what the people thought of the mass take over of countries or what the under the radar public reaction was to the attacks of Kristallnacht (the first big assault on a Jewish community by the Nazis). I just know that such activity scares a public into not wanting to say much about it. I got an email a few months ago that was supposed to be a letter written by an Austrian woman about her experience of living through the whole thing. I'll try to find it and post it. I am really curious to know what Germans who were alive then have to say about that stuff today. I talked to a German lady about 9 years ago, and her take on it was, "Oh, the people didn't know what was really happening. They didn't know." I am not sure how much of a role denial played in that comment.

[juroara]

Hitler was just one tiny human. What ever power he exerted on other human beings, was the power given to him by other human beings. I've always blamed the average citizen for giving him power . There have been all sorts of crazy leaders, even today. But they are all essentially powerless. To blame them entirely is missing the dynamics of people willingly give up their rights so someone else can decide their future. I can't imagine how the average citizen could have told themselves that what was going on was totally okay. There were way too many signs that something morally wrong was taking, or was about to take place. Victimhood means that you blame someone else for your mistakes. "It wasn't my fault! I didn't know better!" Well, it should be our responsibility to know better. And all of this brainwashing business, it's always bothered me. Not a single video of Hitler has brainwashed me. People choose to be sheep because it makes you feel this other person is responsible now. You don't have to worry, and if they are wrong, you're innocent! It wasn't your fault, because you didn't know better. Being sheep is away to avoid responsibility of your own actions. He told me so! That's what victimhood is!

[tkdyo]

my experience in HS was neither blaming the citizens nor saying they were innocent. It was discussed well how hitler came to power. He made people believe he could save their country with his economic plans, and to an extent he actually did do that. For the common citizen he actually did a lot of things right for the country. However, as UM said, I think he took too much power before people even knew it and by then it was too late to speak out lest you be killed.

[Supernova]

However, as UM said, I think he took too much power before people even knew it and by then it was too late to speak out lest you be killed. Yes, I actually did a little research into this for part of a history project. He lost the presidency but was chancellor (Germany had a chancellor and President), then practiaclly overnight he had taken total control by combining the offices of chancellor and president when the current president died (which he did via a law dated the day before the president's death, which was announced the day of).

[The Cusp]

I recently watched a documentary called "Love, Hate, and Propaganda" (sorry can't a link to it online, but worth the time if you can find it), and the parallels between how Hitler kicked off the war on Poland and how the US kicked off it's war on terrorism/Iraq are down right disturbing. The flashpoint was when hitler blew one of his own radio towers and blamed it on Poland. 9/11 anyone?

[ArcanumNoctis]

Alright. Every nation has their darkspots. Some have darker spots than others. But has anyone else here noticed the blatant lack of blame put on the country of Germany for WWII? The way the school system puts it, and the way alot of popular films/literature put it, and the way people talk about the holocaust, you would think that Deutschland was totally victimized. That Hitler seized power from an unwilling populace with a giant revolutionary army of evil skinheads overnight. Then the people were brainwashed into thinking that the Jews/Rom were being sent to nice minority communities with picket fences. And everyone in Germany thought that the Polish were actually glad they had the Nazis to protect them from the Russians. And Nazi soldiers were widely believed to be mostly pleasant guys, really, who were pretty nice to the Dutch and the POWs. And the communists at home just fell over dead in their arm chairs, dying from natural causes. This is only talking about here in the U.S. public school system, (though I would be interested to know if this is true for other places though I can't speak for anywhere else.) Now I bear the nation no ill will today, but it angers me that those who voted Hitler in and watched the deportation of minority groups and witnessed the stripping of freedoms and the massacre of communists and threw the fuels of racism into the fire and supported the nationalists even after the SA made themselves a househould name aren't presented negatively. (If you disagree with my view of WWII, please explain why. Or if you have had different experiences in school/talking about it with the general public. But I have gone to high schools all over the country and it seems fairly prevalent.) How are we supposed to learn from the holocaust when the blame is placed on just a few psychotics? No, that isn't a question that can facilitate discussion well... Yeah, here's one. Why are we teaching about the holocaust in a way to make the average German look innocent? I am at a total loss. Really? You can't condemn a whole country for the actions of the minority or the majority. On top of that, most alive during that time period are probably dead by now.

[Laughing Man]

Really? You can't condemn a whole country for the actions of the minority or the majority. On top of that, most alive during that time period are probably dead by now. Plus its hard to condemn Germany for a series of crimes that America actually committed also. I would recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching which is written during WWII and chronicles the fascism that America lived under.

[tkdyo]

leave it to you to try and derail the point of a thread. We are talking about germany, if you want to talk about america, start a new thread.

[Descensus]

leave it to you to try and derail the point of a thread. We are talking about germany, if you want to talk about america, start a new thread. Actually his post was on-topic. It was comparing both Germany and America.

[Grod]

Anti-semitism has always been prevalent in Germany and other European countries. I went to Germany this summer, and "dirty jew" is as common of an insult among young people as calling someone an idiot or moron is in the US. It's not like the whole hating Jews thing was anything new to Germany. A lot of the populace probably supported it.

[tkdyo]

Actually his post was on-topic. It was comparing both Germany and America. No...the op specifically asks about our teaching of what happened in germany. not comparing what happened at the time in both countries.

[Universal Mind]

Plus its hard to condemn Germany for a series of crimes that America actually committed also. I would recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching which is written during WWII and chronicles the fascism that America lived under. I'm sure the two are pretty close to equal.

[Laughing Man]

I'm sure the two are pretty close to equal. In terms of fascism? Ehh maybe. It was less explicit in the US though. No...the op specifically asks about our teaching of what happened in germany. not comparing what happened at the time in both countries. Actually it was about the sentiment of Germany going blameless for what happened during WWII. Obviously the sentiment is not just confined to Germany itself. Try harder to make me look foolish. What you are doing now isn't working. Those bombings ended the war, as they were meant to. They prevented years of continued fighting on the Japanese mainland. I don't think the Nazis were ever out to end the war until they had to surrender. That assumes that the US couldn't end the war before the bomb droppings. They could of done it. They wanted surrender without conditions. Even before the bomb droppings, they firebombed Tokyo which killed more civilians then both Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Is American greatness responsible for Japan taking over the Pacific, invading China, and bombing Pearl Harbor? Is American greatness responsible for the Holocaust and Germany spreading its borders through most of mainland Europe? Germany holds the ultimate responsibility for the start of WWII in Europe, and Japan in the Pacific. What makes us cowardly? Still only a fraction of the populations of those two cities were killed during the atomic bombings. It was an overstatement. Let me ask you this: Who kills children? There were 33 schools in the blast radius of Hiroshima. They weren't empty. Who do you think were under those bombs being dropped? Who lived in the streets of Tokyo when they were firebombed? Women, children, innocent men. Can you think of a more cowardly, despicable action? Don't edit my work when it isn't inflammatory or insulting.

[Universal Mind]

In terms of fascism? Ehh maybe. It was less explicit in the US though. What countries did we take over in the 1930's and 1940's? What did we do with Western Europe after the war? How many minorities did we execute? What Americans were killed for mere dissent? There is no comparison. That assumes that the US couldn't end the war before the bomb droppings. They could of done it. They wanted surrender without conditions. Even before the bomb droppings, they firebombed Tokyo which killed more civilians then both Nagasaki and Hiroshima. We wanted surrender without conditions because we had to change the government of Japan. They were a major threat to the rest of the world. Should we have accepted Japan's conditions so that they could turn around and try to take over Asia again? How do you suggest we should have handled Germany and Japan after they had gotten really far with their conquests?

[shinta66]

In terms of fascism? Ehh maybe. It was less explicit in the US though. Actually it was about the sentiment of Germany going blameless for what happened during WWII. Obviously the sentiment is not just confined to Germany itself. Try harder to make me look foolish. What you are doing now isn't working. That assumes that the US couldn't end the war before the bomb droppings. They could of done it. They wanted surrender without conditions. Even before the bomb droppings, they firebombed Tokyo which killed more civilians then both Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Let me ask you this: Who kills children? There were 33 schools in the blast radius of Hiroshima. They weren't empty. Who do you think were under those bombs being dropped? Who lived in the streets of Tokyo when they were firebombed? Women, children, innocent men. Can you think of a more cowardly, despicable action? Don't edit my work when it isn't inflammatory or insulting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre EDIT: youtube won't let me embed this for some reason http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ygm3e0Gn9U Japan has their messed up spotlight too.

[tkdyo]

Actually it was about the sentiment of Germany going blameless for what happened during WWII. Obviously the sentiment is not just confined to Germany itself. Try harder to make me look foolish. What you are doing now isn't working. um...you just restated what I said. The thread is about that sentiment yes, and sure its not limited there, but that isnt what the op asked, so the point is moot. but since I see you have succeeded in derailing, you are making yourself look enough like a fool because you keep misconstruing what people say to fit your own needs.

[Never]

I think too much blame is on Germany in WWII; and just about everything else. People always default to that, as if the US is a great beacon of greatness; the cowardly greatness that willingly obliterated an entire Japanese civilian population.....TWICE. The Nazis did some terrible things; so did just about everyone else.

[Universal Mind]

I think too much blame is on Germany in WWII; and just about everything else. People always default to that, as if the US is a great beacon of greatness; the cowardly greatness that willingly obliterated an entire Japanese civilian population.....TWICE. The Nazis did some terrible things; so did just about everyone else. Entire Japanese civilian population? So there were no Japanese left but then they started growing on trees again and became the second wealthiest nation in the world? We were on the side that stopped the government of Germany from taking over Europe and stopped the government of Japan from taking over Asia after both had covered major ground in their conquests. What was the German government's excuse?

[Descensus]

Entire Japanese civilian population? So there were no Japanese left but then they started growing on trees again and became the second wealthiest nation in the world? He said "an entire Japanese civilian population," not "the entire Japanese civilian population.

[Universal Mind]

He said "an entire Japanese civilian population," not "the entire Japanese civilian population. That could mean the entire Japanese civilian population existing at a time. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Japanese city civilian populations. Those bombings ended the war, as they were meant to. They prevented years of continued fighting on the Japanese mainland. I don't think the Nazis were ever out to end the war until they had to surrender.

[Descensus]

That could mean the entire Japanese civilian population existing at a time. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Japanese city civilian populations. I'm almost certain he meant "an entire Japanese civilian population...TWICE" meaning two populations...two cities, not the entire population. Those bombings ended the war, as they were meant to. They prevented years of continued fighting on the Japanese mainland. I don't think the Nazis were ever out to end the war until they had to surrender. I see you're still a "the ends justify the means" kind of guy.

[Never]

It never ceases to amaze me that I must post with such sophist precision that I must leave no room for a misunderstanding. I think some of you just wanted to argue my knowledge of history and not the issue; or just show your wit; there is no need to respond to this further. I am glad to see however that I was completely wrong about my assumption that most people actually buy that nonsense about "the nukes potentially saved half a million American lives". This, in my view, is a gross exaggeration to justify a hasty decision made in a time of desperation and anger between two countries. "Nobody is more disturbed over the use of atomic bombs than I am, but I was greatly disturbed over the unwarranted attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor and the murder of our prisoners of war. The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them. When you have to deal with a beast, you have to treat him as a beast." - Harry Truman Because the Japanese could so easily be excluded from having any sort of right in this issue it was thus much more feasible to generalize the entire thing; which is what was necessary to justify the bombs' use in the first place; ethically speaking.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

Wow! How could I have missed this thread?!!! I have learned sooo much! I have heard comparisons of Nazis to Americans but I am surprised I never heard Nazis compared to Chinese Communists!!! 1.2 million tibetans, with their army of men on horses with swords defending their own peaceful country on the rooftop of the world! Or the Native Americans. I have heard comparisons with slavery, understandable, but what about the Native Americans? This was their land! And there was no justification to dropping the nuclear bomb... not once, but TWICE!!! I lived in Japan with my Japanese girlfriend and her family. Her grandmother remembers the bombing and WWII. She told me all about it, from her perspective, in Japanese, which my girlfriend translated. The citizens were innocent. Just a generation before that and Japan was an isolated country living in a timeless era as farmers and samurai. The citizens did not deserve to die. The Emperor was naive, and following what American, English, Portuguese, French, and German diplomats were telling him to do. He was in medieval times being exploited by the beginnings of globalization. Japan was a pawn, until they learned that they were being used. Then they, foolishly, decided to stand up and fight back, when they should have never gotten involved and somehow modernized themselves (which is unrealistic and virtually impossible to expect!) And why they decided to ally themselves with white supremacists bent on world domination, I don't know. It was because they were naive and being manipulated. Hitler must have known that they were fed up with being manipulated by America, Britain, France and Portugal. Truman knew Pearl Harbor was going to be bombed. But he was facing opposition by American citizens to enter the war. So he let Pearl Harbor happed so that America supported the war. And I am glad that Hitler was defeated. Disclaimer: This is all my opinion arising from what I have observed and experienced and in no ways reflects the opinions and views of www.dreamviews.com and its advertisers. Take what you will and figure it out for yourself. Yes, Japan had been in a mode of conquest at the time, due to pressure from Europe and America, invading China, Tibet, Manchuria, etc. But for 500 years at least, before that, they were an isolated island country. And what is there to take over in the Pacific for them? They wanted Hawaii. We took Hawaii. It is just as much theirs at it is ours. In fact it is the Hawaiians' land. Now the Hawaiians are illegally being deprived of their own land. Think about it: 80% of Hawaiians are homeless when they didn't sell their land. Instead, they camp out on the beaches of their own islands. So we nuke the Japanese so they won't take over the Pacific, but Americans and the French can have it? At least Japan is a Pacific Island country and the Japanese language is similar to the Pacific Island languages. The Hawaiians love the Japanese but hate the Haoles (white folks). The problem was that Hawaii is such a strategic spot for America to control Asia from. But is America justified in global domination when any other nation isn't? We can justify nuking and killing 20% of an ethnic group because they want to dominate their corner of the globe, when we are not satisfied with 30%? How did George Bush get elected into office? What qualifications did he have? How did Obama get elected into office? What qualifications did he have? At least he is good at diplomacy! I mean, you can blame German citizens as much as you can blame American citizens. Or Chinese citizens, or English citizens. England fucked the Scottish and the Irish and the Welsh. Yes, people let the trigger-happy fools with inferiority complexes take over and have power, so they can be blamed in retrospect. But when it is happening to you and your country, whichever country you are, you sit back and go with the flow and bitch about it. I have had friends who are Muslim (by birth) American citizens get kicked out of America (They were born and raised here) because their family gave money to a Muslim charity (which is part of Islam). Doesn't that sound a little like the Nazis? At least those two weren't gassed! I think that you can blame the Germans as much as you can blame yourself. Individuals are made to seem powerless. And the Nazis made it a science, how to make the individuals feel powerless. The CIA learned from the Nazis their secrets and they have used it in America and have continued research. TV helps. FOX news helps. Fear helps. Paranoia helps. what is next?

[Spartiate]

I don't think that any civilization in history came close to the ferocity, efficiency and targeted violence of Nazi Germany. What really strikes home was that the events took place in the modern era and in a developed country where you would presume that people are a bit smarter. That's what separates the Nazis from other genocides. They were pretty much the worst group of human beings in history, and I don't know how anybody who collaborated with them can live with themselves.