Thread: Homosexuality, how can it not be considered an abnormality?

What does roleplaying games like d&d, computer games, playing baseball, driving fast cars, drawing, tv, climbing, swimming, running, boxing, stamp collecting all have in common? All of them are preferences. Some people enjoy doing them, some people do not. Do I need proof and scientific studies to prove that they are all not genetically build in? If I claim they are preferences, you going to call me illogical, because I couldn't possibly know that a person have a choice. You going to argue with me over how each must be a genetic preference that was built in when I was born?

How come being gay is singled out from all of them, as different. How come being gay needs studies and genetic testing to find out where it comes from, while no such things exist for people who enjoy reading comic books?

The truth is that they are no different. The reason being gay is singled out, is because it involves sex. Not only sex, but a sexual taboo. If it didn't involve sex, we wouldn't think twice about it.

You havn't show any evidence to prove that it is any different from any other preference. Except a vague reference that some scientist, may have discovered a gene that plays a small part in it.

Originally Posted by Alric

You havn't show any evidence to prove that it is any different from any other preference. Except a vague reference that some scientist, may have discovered a gene that plays a small part in it.

So tell me, when did you consciously choose to be heterosexual?

When I was about 8.

Originally Posted by Alric

When I was about 8.

So you sat yourself down and said "I prefer to be heterosexual rather than homosexual" at 8 years old?

I don't think so. Most 8 year olds do not have mental faculties required to understand the vast realities of sexual types, psychosexual attitues, behaviour and socioeconomic impact. More realistically you just began to realize that you were attracted to the opposite gender at that age. Becoming aware of an emerging truth about your innate personality and behaviour is not that same as making a conscious choice.

...also, I really don't understand why this thread is 9 pages long. Homosexuality is found throughout Nature, therefore it is normal, otherwise it would not exist. How freaking hard is it to understand such a simple concept? You don't have to like homosexual behaviour to acknowledge that it does exist and is normal.

(Edited for grammar fail)

Originally Posted by Sekhmet

...also, I really don't understand why this thread is 9 pages long. Homosexuality is found throughout Nature, therefore it is normal, otherwise it would not exist. Hard freaking hard is it to understand such a simple concept? You don't have to like (i.e. prefer) homosexual behaviour to acknowledge that it does exist and is normal.

well read the 9 pages and you'll see. by your logic then, conjoined twins are normal, as it has occured several times in nature, but the majority of people would consider that conjoined twins are abnormal.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

well read the 9 pages and you'll see. by your logic then, conjoined twins are normal, as it has occured several times in nature, but the majority of people would consider that conjoined twins are abnormal.

Conjoined twins are normal. Disabilities are normal. Sickness and diseases are normal. Throughout human history there has never been any length of time where human being have had a 100% birth rate without ailmets of some kind. It is expected (though not always predictable) that a small percentage of humans will be born with conditions that are not "ideal" or "perfect". This is true for all living things in Nature. It is normal. You don't have to like this reality to acknowlege that it is true. The concept of "abnormality" only exists in our perceptions of reality and our conscious choice to accept or reject what we see and experience.

Like I said though, it doesn't have to be a conscious choice. Subconscious choices, preferences based on past experiences, social pressures, and cultural influences all count.

Which is the same as any other preference. Often you don't consciously decide if something is fun, its either fun or it isn't fun. Though the reason it is fun is because of your personality which is made up of past experiences, and conscious and subconscious decisions. Your personalty is not created and predestined from birth based on your genes, like some people might lead you to believe. Sure genes may play a part in the start, but its hardly the be all and end all of everything. You cant just blame everything in genes.

Originally Posted by Alric

Like I said though, it doesn't have to be a conscious choice. Subconscious choices, preferences based on past experiences, social pressures, and cultural influences all count.

Which is the same as any other preference. Often you don't consciously decide if something is fun, its either fun or it isn't fun. Though the reason it is fun is because of your personality which is made up of past experiences, and conscious and subconscious decisions. Your personalty is not created and predestined from birth based on your genes, like some people might lead you to believe. Sure genes may play a part in the start, but its hardly the be all and end all of everything. You cant just blame everything in genes.

Actually, my older brother is in many ways like me, but he certainly has some behavioral differences, that differ very greatly from both me and our 2 other brothers. We are only 3 years apart and have grown up under very much the same conditions, yet he's still greatly different when it comes to certain things. I could get into more detail, but my point is that he picked up some very prevalent personality quirks from our father that my other brothers and I did not, which makes me believe that we as humans pick up certain personality related things through our genes and other things through environmental factors while we grow up.

Putting all our preferences, like our sexuality, our prefered food, our prefered form of entertainment and all kinds of other preferences into the same box, is taking the wrong approach. I probably like playing video games, because I grew up playing video games. Why am I bisexual? I honestly can't give a good answer to that. My mother and father seperated when I was 6 and I lived with my mother from then, but I still regularly visitted my father. The divorce didn't hurt me emotionally in any way, because my parents were not being idiots about it. They were fine with each other, they just couldn't live together anymore.

Originally Posted by Alric

What does roleplaying games like d&d, computer games, playing baseball, driving fast cars, drawing, tv, climbing, swimming, running, boxing, stamp collecting all have in common? All of them are preferences. Some people enjoy doing them, some people do not. Do I need proof and scientific studies to prove that they are all not genetically build in? If I claim they are preferences, you going to call me illogical, because I couldn't possibly know that a person have a choice. You going to argue with me over how each must be a genetic preference that was built in when I was born?

I never said that every little thing had to have a genetic origin. But, what makes you so dead-sure that homosexuality is only a preference? I could argue it's a different form of instinct. Genetics got the "have sex" bit right, but switched about the "with whom" part of the program. It could be that, during brain development, a gay person's neurons connect a bit differently. Perhaps even that prenatal developmental stage shapes our future interests and preferences. It could be any number of factors. People who receive more testosterone in the womb are usually more aggressive, and so would not be content with something like stamp keeping, and may prefer race car driving or baseball playing. Now of course I'm not going to say that development throughout life isn't going to have an impact at all...that would be silly. But neither am I going to discount the possibility of prenatal and genetic factors, as some do. I retain my stance that homosexuality is not an active choice an individual consciously makes in a short period of time...the same way people don't actively choose to be heterosexual.

How come being gay is singled out from all of them, as different. How come being gay needs studies and genetic testing to find out where it comes from, while no such things exist for people who enjoy reading comic books?

Because a joy for reading comic books can rise up out of anything, and can spontaneously develop in the course of a couple of minutes. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is far more complex and more deeply rooted. A person will get a nice chuckle out of a comic book, but love is a far more powerful emotion. Hobbies come and go, but sexuality seems to be somewhat rigidly defined on an individual basis, which is to say, a person does not typically move very far from whatever point on the gradient they landed at. Gay people tend to stay gay, straight people stay straight, and bisexuals bisexual. Deviations from the norm could be a result of any numerous factors. A straight person who suddenly finds themselves gay, perhaps, may have hit upon a level of self-realization, suppressed by societal expectations until just that instant.

The truth is that they are no different. The reason being gay is singled out, is because it involves sex. Not only sex, but a sexual taboo. If it didn't involve sex, we wouldn't think twice about it.

There is more to homosexuality than just animal sex, you know. Like, emotional love, excitation, and the like. I could care less that it involves sex. Remove the sex, and you still have deep-seated love for a person of the same sex that that same person does not hold for members of the opposite sex.

You havn't show any evidence to prove that it is any different from any other preference. Except a vague reference that some scientist, may have discovered a gene that plays a small part in it.

And you haven't shown me any evidence that homosexuality is as simple as being a preference for one gender or another. I believe I just showed above, too, how it is different from picking up a comic book. A person could go out and have gay sex, but if that attraction, if that love, is not there, it isn't there. The sex may be great, sure, but without love, it isn't homosexuality, is it?

Originally Posted by Alric

Like I said though, it doesn't have to be a conscious choice. Subconscious choices, preferences based on past experiences, social pressures, and cultural influences all count.

Again, all things outside the direct control of the individual. My argument is simply that homosexuality is not a conscious choice a person makes. That's all I'm arguing. Beyond that, I'm tossing out other possibilities with evidence neither for nor against in an effort to show you that you could very well be wrong. I grant that I could (and likely am) wrong on at least several of the potential causes of homosexuality I'm tossing out, but you seem to remain perfectly certain that your point of view, made on personal observations without objective evidence, is absolute truth. See, that kind of pisses me off, because we don't know. Logically, we may like to think we know, but we don't. Your hypothesis that homosexuality is solely about preferences influenced only marginally by prenatal or genetic factors is just that: a hypothesis. It is a testable claim with thus far inconclusive results.

Which is the same as any other preference. Often you don't consciously decide if something is fun, its either fun or it isn't fun. Though the reason it is fun is because of your personality which is made up of past experiences, and conscious and subconscious decisions. Your personalty is not created and predestined from birth based on your genes, like some people might lead you to believe. Sure genes may play a part in the start, but its hardly the be all and end all of everything. You cant just blame everything in genes.

I never said that genes were the be-all end-all of everything. And "blaming" genes? What an interesting selection of words for the context of this argument. Is there something wrong with homosexuality? (You see how fun it is to put words in the mouths of others?) Genetically, science has gotten very interesting results with just how much a person's personality is determined by genes, right down to hand gestures. I do think they play a larger part than you give them credit for. I'm afraid we have gotten a bit off-topic with the "nature vs nurture" debate, so...care to remind me exactly how it is an abnormality?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

well read the 9 pages and you'll see. by your logic then, conjoined twins are normal, as it has occured several times in nature, but the majority of people would consider that conjoined twins are abnormal.

Like I said, we only consider something like "conjoined twins" "abnormal" with your definition of a "malfunction" because it gets in the way of our priorities. Homosexuality on the other hand doesn't necessarily get in the way of any of our priorities. If someone was born with something abnormal by the real definition of the word but it was beneficial you wouldn't consider it a "malfunction," yet something like being homosexual, which is pretty much neutral for human priorities, you consider it a "malfunction." Not everyone thinks having kids is important for their own personal life.

I'll go as far as to say for me being homosexual is beneficial, it is the opposite of a malfunction, it is a desired change.

I have never seen anything to show that sexual orientation is a static unchangeable thing. Peoples interest do change, and you can gain or lose sexual fetishes through life. You my be a breast guy then switch to loving legs betters. A straight person can become bisexual, and while it might be uncommon people do go from straight to gay, or from gay to straight.

Normally changes in things like that are so gradual that they are not easily noticeable, but it can and does happen. A person that suddenly notices they are gay, may really have at one point enjoyed and preferred the opposite sex.

Since it can change, it make it seems even less likely that things are set at stone at birth.

Also, you can be homosexual without actually loving a person. If you have great gay sex, but have no other feelings for them, you are still gay. Just like a straight person doesn't have to love their partner, neither does a gay person. Now I am not saying most people are like that or anything, but it does count.

Any way, to get back on the abnormality topic. My entire point was that being gay is a personality trait and a preference, and no preference is ever abnormal because humans are individuals and we are all different and capable of doing whatever we want.

Originally Posted by Alric

I have never seen anything to show that sexual orientation is a static unchangeable thing. Peoples interest do change, and you can gain or lose sexual fetishes through life. You my be a breast guy then switch to loving legs betters. A straight person can become bisexual, and while it might be uncommon people do go from straight to gay, or from gay to straight.

Normally changes in things like that are so gradual that they are not easily noticeable, but it can and does happen. A person that suddenly notices they are gay, may really have at one point enjoyed and preferred the opposite sex.

Since it can change, it make it seems even less likely that things are set at stone at birth.

Also, you can be homosexual without actually loving a person. If you have great gay sex, but have no other feelings for them, you are still gay. Just like a straight person doesn't have to love their partner, neither does a gay person. Now I am not saying most people are like that or anything, but it does count.

Any way, to get back on the abnormality topic. My entire point was that being gay is a personality trait and a preference, and no preference is ever abnormal because humans are individuals and we are all different and capable of doing whatever we want.

There is a huge difference between straight, bisexual, and gay. If someone that is straight, sleeps with someone of the same gender, that doesn't make the individual gay, but makes the individual bisexual. In this aspect, the individual was never straight, but in actuality bisexual.

Sorry, but by definition, it is impossible for a straight person to become bisexual.

Originally Posted by Alric

I have never seen anything to show that sexual orientation is a static unchangeable thing. Peoples interest do change, and you can gain or lose sexual fetishes through life. You my be a breast guy then switch to loving legs betters. A straight person can become bisexual, and while it might be uncommon people do go from straight to gay, or from gay to straight.

Uncommon being the key word. And that factor of uncommonness does beg the question of is it a true transition and change in preference, or a moment of self-realization?

Normally changes in things like that are so gradual that they are not easily noticeable, but it can and does happen. A person that suddenly notices they are gay, may really have at one point enjoyed and preferred the opposite sex.

Sure, they may have enjoyed it, or have perceived to enjoy it, but it is also very well possible that the person had no idea how awesome sex was until they realized they were gay. In other words, they were gay all along, but never realized it.

Since it can change, it make it seems even less likely that things are set at stone at birth.

Again, does it change, or is it self-realization? A man who becomes bisexual, for example, perhaps never slept with men before because he never thought about it, had never been introduced to the concept. Then, upon a bit of thinking, he realizes it was probably something he could have started enjoying a long time ago. Have you ever had a moment when you went "what have I been missing?!"? This phenomenon is most prevalent in the sampling of new things, food making a great example. Perhaps you go to a new restaurant that serves a dish you've never heard of. You taste it, and it's the most awesome thing you've ever had. It blows everything else you've tasted out of the water. Or, try an activity. Maybe rock climbing gives you an adrenaline rush you never thought possible. It isn't that your preferences changed, it's that you were introduced to something totally new and realized how awesome it was.

Also, you can be homosexual without actually loving a person. If you have great gay sex, but have no other feelings for them, you are still gay. Just like a straight person doesn't have to love their partner, neither does a gay person. Now I am not saying most people are like that or anything, but it does count.

As a sexual orientation, homosexuality refers to "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, or romantic attractions primarily to" people of the same sex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

Any way, to get back on the abnormality topic. My entire point was that being gay is a personality trait and a preference, and no preference is ever abnormal because humans are individuals and we are all different and capable of doing whatever we want.

Ah, very good. I do believe I had you confused with someone else. Hey, we finally agree on something!