What if Dream Characters feel themselves to be as real as we feel about ourselves?

[DreamBliss]

I set the intention, last night, to start lucid dreaming again. To master this, to become proficient and regular at having lucid dreams. Before I went to sleep I sent out a warning to all Dream Characters. I warned them that I was not going to restrain myself. That I was going in unfettered and unrestrained. I think I punished myself, became afraid of lucid dreaming, based on previous actions when I was in a lucid dream. But since then I have changed a lot, and recently attended a 10-Day Vipassana meditation course. Also I am not longer a Christian, as I think I was then. I told them, as I went to sleep, that if they could not forgive me or be patient with me that they should not show up in my dreams. I guess I still feel bad about some things I did a few years ago when I first started becoming lucid. I asked for guidance, direction and help. That I wanted to master lucid dreaming, begin dreaming in this way on a regular basis, do so proficiently. Yes, I want to have fun, certainly. But my main intention right now, when I am not experiencing flying for the first time or while that is still new (have not experienced it to my memory yet), is to use the lucid dream time as a way to teach myself things I want to learn in waking life, a way to practice these things. Maybe even figure out what I should do with my life, once I am homeless next year, and certainly get the process of lucid dreaming down, while I have a safe place to learn it and master it. But it has occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, what we perceive to be a world that is not real, in our dreams, maybe that world, and the people in it, perceive this very same world to be as real as we perceive ours to be. Maybe they see themselves to be as real as we see ourselves to be. Maybe their bodies and their world is physical to them, just as our bodies and our world are physical to us. It could even be that they are the consciousness or spirits of those who have passed on, that, in reality, we are experiencing the afterlife in our dream worlds. That those people we call Dream Characters were in fact physical at one time, or will be physical again. They could even be other people dreaming, so they could be physical now. We think the dream world is not real because of the things we can do there. But what if we can do those things because we don't believe the rules of reality apply? Some will argue with me on this, but you can do everything you do in a dream in the physical world, the world you perceive to be real. The only thing stopping you is your beliefs. You don't believe you can fly or walk through walls physically, so you don't. Everyone else, as a majority at least, also believes this. But what if they only thing stopping you is your belief, the beliefs you subscribe to from others or that you have developed yourself? There are people who levitate. There are people who materialize things out of the air, right here in our physical world. Rare, but they exist. Theoretically, if you could divest yourself of all your beliefs about this world (the world you perceive to be real, the physical world) if you could free yourself from all your beliefs about the world, you could do everything that you can do in a dream, without exception. Even fly through physical space or the ocean without dying. Walk on water, through walls or fly. All possible, even materializing things with your mind. You may be laughing at me right now. You may think I am full of crap or something. But this is precisely what keeps you from doing these things in the physical world. Those few of you taking these words seriously, you are the closest to unlocking this. You have an open mind not only in your dream state, but also your physical state. Scientifically we know that our bodies are only energy, vibrating at a certain frequency, and this same principle applies to all matter in the Universe. If all you are is energy, nothing more than a frequency like a sound vibration, then where is the solidity coming from? Is light or sound solid? Can you hold light or sound? No. If light and sound are both forms of energy, and if energy is non-solid, why is your body solid? Why is the physical world solid? Where is this solidity coming from? You think you are not real, non-solid, in a dream. You may have a body and may be able to experience the world in a very similar way to the physical world. But when you become lucid you can also fly, walk through walls and astral project yourself, where your body is nothing more than energy. In short, you don't burden yourself with beliefs about physicality in the dreaming world. You only have these beliefs in your waking, physical reality. But does that mean the dreaming world is not just as physically a place somewhere as here, physically a place to the Dream Characters living there, as the earth is physical a place for you? Considering these thoughts, are Dream Characters real? If they are, is it really OK what some of us do to them? If you wouldn't do it in waking, physical reality, should you do it in a dream? On the other hand, if you need to let loose, if you need to vent, the dream world is a perfect place to let out all your monstrous desires. If you are able to express these desires, these urges, outside of the restraint and rules of your religion or society, eventually you will no longer want to do these things, unless you are a psychopath or a sociopath. I think rules create problems. They restrain and restrict people in an attempt to control them. They force conformity with severe penalties for those who do not. This is also what religion is for, essentially. Here in our physical world we have a human society, and we believe that in order for us to all live together, we have to have these religions or rules to keep us in check. But maybe it is healthier to be free of all religions or rules, to be able to express all the stuff we need to express, religiously or socially acceptable or not. The Dream World gives us this outlet, and perhaps letting the poison out there is better for us. But if the Dream World and the Dream Characters there are real, how do we proceed? Thankfully we can give them warning, create a space just for us to let the beast out of its cage, so to speak, for those of us that need to. We do have that power in the Dream World, maybe even the power to create seeming real people who aren't really real, just life-like dummies, so we don't hurt anyone, Dream Character or not. I am curious to see what you all think about this...

[DreamBliss]

One thought occurs to me... There is one important difference between the Dream World and our world. That is nobody is in our world flying around or walking through walls. So Dream Characters, if they dream, they do not visit here. That seems more likely than them visiting here unknown to us. We can go to their world and act like superheros, but it does not appear to work the other way.

[rcarter]

Aw, no answers? I was holding back and waiting for people with extensive LD experience to post all sorts of interesting perspectives, but perhaps this needs a bump. So, here's my perspective on this. What is real? Only what's directly measurable. The mass of an atom, the gravitational pull of a celestial body. Consciousness, on the other hand, is an abstraction emerging from the totality of the interactions of chemicals in the brain. Character is a complex system of survival strategies that has been shaped by genes and socialization and continues to evolve to adapt to a changing environment. Consciousness and character in themselves are not real, only their constituents are. So, when I talk about "me", I talk about something that does not really exist. The chemicals that make up my being are real, but "I" am a process, an abstraction, and a very fleeting one at that. My perception is only loosely related to the physical reality it perceives, my character constantly changes, I take on different roles in a social play depending on context, and my memory is so unreliable that my subconscious can easily falsify it according to its whims. Knowing that, how can I draw a line between me and a dream character and say that I am more real than them? Well, I can't really. If there is no metaphysical essence that makes "me" somehow greater than another, equally complex character inhabiting my brain, the distinction is arbitrary. We'll get to the "equally complex" part in a minute. For now, let's assume that the dream character in question is really as complex as I am or more. What follows from this realization? Should I act in any particular way? What about morals? Just like consciousness, morals are not real. There is some combination of electrical impulses in our brains that is the material basis of that abstract concept, but that doesn't make the abstraction itself real. So, if there is no objectively true guideline for behavior, what I should do is only a question of what consequences an action has for me. How does it make me feel? Will I be praised or punished if other people find out about it? How will I feel about that? What are the chances of that happening? Obviously, if I tell people that I treat characters in my dreams badly, they will think of me as a freak and a creep, but if I don't tell them, no one will find out, and there will be no negative consequences. If I try to treat someone badly in the physical world, they'd fight back. They might overpower me, or the police might find me, and there would be very serious consequences for me. But in the dream world, I usually am in control, and even if a dream character manages to overpower me, I eventually wake up. So it comes down to what I want to do. Because of what I said about morality above, I cannot decide this based on a rigid system; only my whims, arising from my character (conditioning, genes) and emotions are important for the decision. Above, I said "equally complex" because I do ascribe (purely emotional) value to characters based on how complex I perceive their thought process to be. Somehow, complexity is connected to merit in my thinking. Some dream characters lack that complexity, they are merely representations of some concept. I would be totally OK with assaulting a concept in human form. If the dream is very vivid, it might trigger my conditioning against "real" violence (again, the distinction between real and not real here is problematic), but because assaulting this character will not have any consequences like it would in the physical world, that perceived transgression would likely just enhance the thrill for me. If, on the other hand, a dream character appears intelligent and likeable to me, I'd never try to harm them, because the pleasure I can gain from peaceful interaction with them and insight into their thoughts is far greater than the pleasure I can gain from violating or killing them. This is what I think about violence in lucid dreams now. I haven't had any chance to actually try it, so my opinion might very well change once I have had some experience with it. Maybe mistreating even the most wooden character would make me feel bad, who knows.

[DreamBliss]

I was not expecting or prepared for such a comprehensive and intelligent response. Seriously. With very few exceptions I rarely get this sort of response from another person. It has given me a clear, alternative perspective, helping me develop my own understanding of this issue. Thank you for posting this. I am looking forward to more interactions with you at these forums. Also you may find you like the other forums I frequent in regards to spiritual matters: The Dao Bums

[dogpoo]

I like this thread. Also went to your blog and read your: "My initial Thoughts On My 10 Day Vipassana " Retreat "" I liked that too. Sincerely Dogpoo

[Rodrodrod]

If Dream Characters feel themselves to be as real as we feel about ourselves, then I've gotta say poor guys. Just had a dream of an old man who jumped out of the window from the second floor. Ouch! But in all seriousness, I bet dream characters do feel themselves to be as real as we feel about ourselves. Since we too are dream characters are we not? When we are not lucid or even Lucid too. In dreams and waking life that is. We still have our own stories, and feelings even when we are not lucid in dreams. In waking life too. But when we are not lucid we don't often have awareness of who we are, as in, we are not questioning whether we are real or not. Only when we are lucid in dreaming or waking do we begin to ask ourselves if we are truly real ourselves. With that said, we are still very much involved in a very complex dream that can use dream characters for symbology. Just like somebody already mentioned, certain characters can simply represent a symbol. This is true in waking life too since both dreams and the waking seem to be manifestations of our thoughts. Only in the dream it seems to happen more instantaneously. The conclusion I have for myself is that nothing truly matters. Both dreams and waking life provide us with experiences which allows us to be who we think we ought to be next, which is always changing. In the end, the experiences we have only have subjective meaning to ourselves and is what we choose. They are there to serve us. In other words, they are real to you if you think they are (or the opposite). So in the same way, if we think ourselves real, than that gives us meaning, whether or not we die tomorrow and find ourselves in another dream as a different self. We are here to experience the NOW and that's what matters! Happy Dreams

[rcarter]

The conclusion I have for myself is that nothing truly matters. [...] So in the same way, if we think ourselves real, than that gives us meaning Camus, is that you? I was not expecting or prepared for such a comprehensive and intelligent response. Seriously. With very few exceptions I rarely get this sort of response from another person. It has given me a clear, alternative perspective, helping me develop my own understanding of this issue. Glad you like it! I was unsure if some of the more "radical" passages would be well-received here. And thank you for opening this thread, it's hit a nerve for me. I'll enjoy exchanging ideas with you, both in this thread and others. No offense, but I'll pass on the Dao Bums, though I appreciate the Kerouac reference. I do not believe in the existence of spiritual matters. It's not that I'm refusing to broaden my horizon; I've spent four turbulent years as a practicing member of a Tibetan Buddhist group and have concluded that it's a mirror cabinet of harmful beliefs built up around the actual proven benefits of meditation (experienced meditators can even do some astonishing things with their bodies) and the "experiences" made in trance states achieved through self hypnosis. There might be something more to our existence than chance and the absurd, but these people aren't in the loop, that's for sure. Anyway, I'm curious to hear other people's perspective on the thread's topic.

[Rodrodrod]

Camus, is that you? Ha! I actually didn't even know who that was until I searched.

[DreamBliss]

I only mentioned the place because its a loving and supportive community where spiritual matters of any sort can be discussed, despite its name. I am not a Buddhist or Taoist or follower of any institutionalized or organized religion. There is no attempt to convert anyone here. Just a sharing of information. The place has been of benefit for me, and after reading what you posted, I thought it may be of benefit to you. That's it. If your heart tells you to stay away, listen to your heart and stay away. Always follow your heart, or if you prefer, your intuition. Whatever you want to call that little compass inside you. If you have radical things to share, by all means share them, or you could always just PM me if you prefer. I am not a fan of meditation although I just completed a 10-Day Vipassana "Retreat" a couple of weeks ago. I am less a fan of meditation now. I respect that many view it as helpful if not necessary for lucid dreaming. For me it is, at the very least, not necessary. I am not even sure it is helpful. But I have a suspicion I am somewhat of an anomaly. Many things that work for others do not work for me. But I will find my way! Reading B Alan Wallace's Lucid Dreaming book right now, and despite my feelings about meditation, I will be applying what I study in this book. Also looking into nootropics, I will probably start with Lion's Mane as I have an affinitty with mushrooms. I will share anything useful I learn here at these forums, likely in my journal.

[rcarter]

DreamBliss, I'll send you a PM in a minute, we can continue the discussion there. I'm still curious to hear some more opinions on the topic, by the way.

[Sensei]

I am currently reading meditations on first philosophy, and it talks directly about the consciousness and whether or not it is real. The problem I see with "only what is directly measurable" being real, is that no matter what your belief, there was a time that we (life forms) could measure anything, but that did not make it "non real" so how could we know that in the future, we will not have a way to measure consciousness? This means that it always existed, making us forward thinkers. Another problem with "real being things that we can measure and quantify" is that we are measuring and quantifying within this world and comparing it to things that we consider "real". Taking this same idea in a dream and only measuring and quantifying things in a dream by things in a dream, then there could be plenty of real things there as well. I guess what I am saying, is this quote from this book (a really remarkable book so far) Whatever I have up till now accepted as most true and assured I have gotten either from the senses or through the senses. But from time to time I have found that the senses deceive, and it is prudent never to trust completely those who have deceived us even once. In closing, just because science has called one thing real and one an abstract construct, does not make it so. What if in the future we find out exactly what a consciousness is and can measure it. Then we could find out that during a dream, a mind actually creates hundreds of tiny "consciousnesses" that arise and dissapear with the dream. That being said: I actually am a Christian, so I believe in a soul, which is more like a consciousness that is remote controlling our body from a different dimension, and this body is more like a computer/receiver. So to find the consciousness inside the computer/reciever would be like finding the person on the computer actually inside of a computer, instead of finding him in there, you will find things left by him. An imprint of him rather than the actual person. Much the same thing I think about the universe and God as well. Haha. With this idea, dreams and dream scenes and characters are all imprints from yourself, since you are in your mind. Of course things get jumbled and the brains "auto fill" function seems to really have a lot to do with dreams, but I guess I see it like "working on a computer by changing some programing". At first, you can only do minor programs with basic ideas, but as you work it our more and more, you are able to reroute and direct thoughts in ways you wouldn't think possible. I know that the brain doesn't work 100% like a computer, but I feel like there are a lot of ways that it does, and as I learn more and more about it (how many different studies does a lucid dreamer need in order to be knowledgeable enough about dreams) I am sure that my ideas will change on what a brain is like, but this is my current analogy for brains. Interesting thread. I like it so far.

[rcarter]

In closing, just because science has called one thing real and one an abstract construct, does not make it so. Human knowledge is always in flux. What is reasonably believed to be true today may be disproven tomorrow. That is why anything "science" (hard science, that is) claims to be true has the best chance of actually being the truth - it can be disproven, and so far it has withstood the pressure of sincerely probing minds. Recognizing that I cannot without a doubt know the objective truth about the universe, I have to adopt some "work in progress" truth to act on, and I'd rather use the one that is actually verifiable and does not claim to explain more than it does than one that gives a complete explanation but relies on unrefutable claims. What if in the future we find out exactly what a consciousness is and can measure it. Then we could find out that during a dream, a mind actually creates hundreds of tiny "consciousnesses" that arise and dissapear with the dream. I doubt that we will find out that consciousness is actually more than an emergent process of our brain chemistry (though that would be a nice change of pace to be sure), but because of the volatility of consciousness I actually do believe (as I said in my first post) that the dreaming brain creates "consciousnesses" that are as real or unreal as day-to-day consciousness. Since you are a very experienced lucid dreamer, Sensei, I'd love to hear how you approach this issue in practice. Do you harm dream characters to "vent" or for other reasons? Why? Why not? Has your view changed through your years of practice?

[Baron Samedi]

uh... do you plan on being homeless?

[DreamBliss]

uh... do you plan on being homeless? If this was directed at me, then by society's standards, I will be homeless sometime next year. Of course as I am a human and the earth is my home I guess I can never really be homeless... Also no, there was no planning. We play the cards we're dealt, and I have had some piss-poor hands! I guess it doesn't help any that I am terrible at playing cards...

[flarn2006]

There are people who levitate. There are people who materialize things out of the air, right here in our physical world. Rare, but they exist. If that's true, then why isn't there solid evidence of that? That would be a really big deal. Also, what about people who have delusions that they're God or something? If it was really possible to do anything just by believing you can, wouldn't they actually be doing godlike things?

[Rodrodrod]

We are all Gods doing godlike things all the time. We are always creating things. Our realities, our selves, everything. Is just that we are not yet at the level we believe a God should be. It's all a part of the cycle of growth, so we are essentially becoming the Gods we wish to be. It's just not as instantaneous or "miraculous" as we think it should be. We do manifest things, you only need to pay attention. For example, someone who trully desires to fly may bring about the experience of flying in an airplane, or may see things flying in their day to day lives, like on tv or they will start dreaming about flying, etc. It's being manifested, just not how we expect. The external is a reflection of the internal. So our thoughts affect it. So does everyones, that's where it gets complicated and has a lot to do with awareness and focus. People often don't know what they want or want it long enough for it to happen. The universe always grants our wish, we are just in the process of learning how to wish. I can say this is true for myself and anyone can experience it too. Do test it. Pick something and feel yourself having it, being it. It gets easier the more it's done and if done frequently it is bound to happen. The truest form of evidence is personal evidence anyways. There is much we don't know and can't verify with science... Anyways, it doesn't really matter... It's all a part of the masterplan.