Questions about Shared Dreaming

[lotsofface]

First and foremost I want to say that I am in no means trying to start a real serious debate with this thread. I simply want calm discussion between fellow lucid dreamers. Personally I find myself to be skeptical of the idea of shared dreaming in general and here are a few questions I have for those who believe in it. 1. If it's possible to share dreams, does that mean that if I see a friend in a dream, that he will be having the same dream? If not, how do you differentiate between people who are real dreamers and just figments of your imagination (which I believe is what all DC's are) 2. Do both you and the other person have to be lucid to share a dream? 3. Wouldn't it hypothetically be possible to share a dream with someone I've never seen, and then accurately describe that person physically with no previous knowledge? Any feedback on these questions to fuel a discussion would be great. Let's just not get too angry with this thread, i am not intending to offend or insult any one else or there beliefs. i'm just putting mine out there. As for what I believe about this topic, I believe that dreaming is a neurological function that is a phenomena of sleep. The reason you experience these hallucinations so vividly is because your visual and sensory cortexes are in your brain and dont' rely on external stimulus to create images or sensations. The brain is way more complex than people give it credit for. Any other ideas about this?

[SystemsLock]

Look I understand your intentions here but it's only going to cause an argument. For all intents and purposes, in this forum, such things are not real. All discussions on the contrary belong in the Beyond Dreaming section. You're obviously right to be skeptical on this issue. You'll notice that nowhere, outside of a few fringe groups, give this theory any credence. You'll have a tough time asking any logical questions to believers about shared dreaming as they, naturally, have no conclusions. As far as neurology goes, the results are clear, it doesn't exist. Step into spirituality and you'll be better off asking your questions in the Beyond Dreaming section.

[ThePreserver]

If you haven't, repost this in "Beyond Dreaming" and you will surely get some fair responses. You can also use the search function and find answers to many of these questions in previous posts about shared dreaming.

[Mzzkc]

I believe I can shed some light on the subject, as I too was very skeptical about the whole thing at one point. Only over time did I manage to find enough personal verification for the phenomena, which I assure you, is nothing like you expect it to be. Straight to the questions then, neh? 1. If it's possible to share dreams, does that mean that if I see a friend in a dream, that he will be having the same dream? If not, how do you differentiate between people who are real dreamers and just figments of your imagination (which I believe is what all DC's are) The only sure-fire way to tell if it was your friend is to find out if the person remembers the dream upon waking. If you're looking for personal verification, try to get them to come to you with the notion, and be sure they're the one giving the details, so that if things match up nicely, you know their experiences weren't influenced by you. 2. Do both you and the other person have to be lucid to share a dream? I doubt it, but lucids are typically easier to recall than non-lucids, which is ideal for confirmation the next day. 3. Wouldn't it hypothetically be possible to share a dream with someone I've never seen, and then accurately describe that person physically with no previous knowledge? I'm less likely to believe that's possible simply due to how dreams are formed from personal schemas and other associations, but when you've got two sets of awarenesses working in the same dream it's conceivable you'll perceive the other person based on a mixture of how you think they should look and how they see themselves. So who's really to say?

[Loaf]

I think what people are forgetting is that, even for those who experience a shared dream, its hard to accurately understand how it works. So while we can provide general theories as to how shared dreams work from face value, we don't know for sure what exactly happens.

[Mzzkc]

What Loaf said. =P Truly, it would be better to first understand the nature of dreams themselves before tackling the topic of shared dreaming. This site is a good place to start, but everyone inevitably ends up doing their own hands-on research into the subject. Topics of interests include the basic questions: Why do we dream? What are dreams? How do dreams work? I still haven't pinned down the first two (has anyone, really?), but the last one is definitely an approachable question that can provide you with fairly clear results. For reference, I found this thread to be an excellent starting point. The core stuff, anyways.

[rkenning]

If you believe in shared dreaming you might as well believe in god or santa. There i said it.

[Mzzkc]

Except one cannot personally verify the existence of God in a logical fashion, and the idea of Santa has a clear, well-defined history. All I can say is don't knock shared dreaming until you've put forth the effort to try it. As there's really no decent way of scientifically proving the phenomena to anyone but yourself, the only way you'll get an answer you're satisfied with is to conduct your own experiments that confirm or deny its existence at a personal level. Unfortunately, I can't say or do anything to change your view on the matter, so if you really want to shut yourself off to it, that's up to you. Actually, it might be wise to steer clear of the subject lest you risk ruining your credibility. XP

[Loaf]

If you believe in shared dreaming you might as well believe in god or santa. There i said it. Thats the stupidest thing I've heard in my life. Congrats. Not exactly sure why you think that having a belief in one area merits belief in everything else questionable just because you personally don't favor its existence, but whatever. Idiot.

[lotsofface]

When I asked the first question about seeing a friend, what I was trying to point out was that either dream characters are all hallucinations and don't actually exist (in the physical sense), or they're all actual people who happen to be having the simultaneous dream. Let's say I have a friend named Bob, and we're both into dreaming and nightly remember our dreams. Let's say I have a dream about him, and he has a dream about me, but neither of us remember being in each other's recalled dreams. Just think about that. I'm going to throw out what I think. Dreaming is a process are brains go through in order to maintain the neurological pathways necessary for waking sensation and perception. If we spent the entire night every night ignoring these pathways then we run the risk of not developing those connections properly. It just so happens that our brain is capable of constructing a sort of false reality using these connections. This is because of one very important concept that few people understand and that is that we see NOT with our eyes, but with our brain. We do take in some information through our retinas in our eyes, but this is all processed and actually "seen" in our brain. Same goes with hearing, feeling, and all other senses. These are neurological occurrences that don't necessarily rely on external sensory stimulation. This is what makes dreaming possible. This is also what makes hallucinations in paranoid schizophrenics or people on LSD or other hallucinogenics possible. Dreaming is a personal, private, and unique sensory experience. It all happens in our brains. Neuroscientists have shown through EEG and PET scans that the areas that are activated when we see something in waking life, are also activated during dreams, that's because besides the difference in the source of stimulation, those two experiences are essentially the same. Sorry for rambling, lol

[Mzzkc]

For your first point you're assuming absolutes on either side: either all entities in dreams are real, or all entities in dreams are imaginary. Why can't a third viewpoint, combining the two be proposed. You've already suggested one far more outlandish, after all. I'm guessing you haven't considered the hypothetical that, one day, you and your friend both recall being in each other's dreams. It really isn't that hard to imagine, I think, even if you choose to blame it on similar thought patterns, intent, and the like. Onto your second point, if what you say is true (about the brain needing to maintain pathways in order to further development) then everyone should stop dreaming around their twenties when brain development ceases and that hunk of grey matter begins its steady decline. I believe you're a bit off on the "why" question. Consider evolution, and look at the dreaming patterns of other species. It's much more likely dreams persisted as a way of rehearsing real-world scenarios, which is why rabbits almost always dream of being chased (scientists discovered this by inhibiting REM atonia). I would also venture the only reason our dreams seem so grandiose is because of the mass amounts of imagery and conditioning society has flooded us with and the importance we place on it all. Your third point, which I think you'd be surprised to realize isn't quite that esoteric, is entirely correct, but it still fails to address how dreams are crafted in the first place. I'll tell you one thing for sure, it's incredibly unlikely dreams are formed solely around sensory deprivation caused by the suppression of the thalamus during sleep. Proof for that lies in the experiences of people who undergo near complete sensory deprivation in the waking state. While it's common for people to experience brief flashes of a face here and there, or a lingering presence of evil, full blown dreams have never been reported, as far as I know. So then, where do dreams come from? It seems more likely dreams result from a shift of consciousness as the brain begins functioning differently. Which leaves us wondering, what is consciousness? Actually, there's a whole thread on the subject somewhere over in ED that is definitely worth a read. But the bottom line is humans haven't figured out any of this stuff yet, which, you have to admit, leaves a lot of room for interpretation. The interesting thing about this, from my perspective, is that I still see myself sided with the camp that believes everything can be explained in a way that doesn't violate the laws of physics. As it is, I have my own theories about how shared dreaming could even begin to be possible, but I'm still working on wrapping my head around much of the more complex stuff, which could altogether disprove my idea. Until then, I have personal experiences and experiments that have verified the phenomena for myself, which I'm content with, for now.

[lotsofface]

"Onto your second point, if what you say is true (about the brain needing to maintain pathways in order to further development) then everyone should stop dreaming around their twenties when brain development ceases and that hunk of grey matter begins its steady decline. " Well you even after development it's still important to stimulate and maintain those pathways and connections. "It's much more likely dreams persisted as a way of rehearsing real-world scenarios, which is why rabbits almost always dream of being chased (scientists discovered this by inhibiting REM atonia)" Well that seems like a silly assumption to make. What other behaviors are rabbits going to exhibit. Either way this could be, and is an interesting point, and still relies on the fact that dreams exist within an individuals own brain, and not on some sort of separate astral or dream plane like some people suggest. "I'll tell you one thing for sure, it's incredibly unlikely dreams are formed solely around sensory deprivation caused by the suppression of the thalamus during sleep. Proof for that lies in the experiences of people who undergo near complete sensory deprivation in the waking state. While it's common for people to experience brief flashes of a face here and there, or a lingering presence of evil, full blown dreams have never been reported, as far as I know." This is because during the waking state the brain uses a neural system that inhibits the vividness of memories/mental images, which makes sense evolutionarily. These systems however are inhibited themselves during dreams, thus explaining why we can literally see things during dreams and only kind of picture them while awake. "It seems more likely dreams result from a shift of consciousness as the brain begins functioning differently. Which leaves us wondering, what is consciousness? Actually, there's a whole thread on the subject somewhere over in ED that is definitely worth a read." If this is the case, why is it that although in distinct stages, we essentially dream throughout the night, and don't even start until after 90 minutes of sleep. I'm just glad that it seems like for the most part, we probably agree more than we disagree. I just like to have topics like this discussed, I think it's important.

[Mzzkc]

Well you even after development it's still important to stimulate and maintain those pathways and connections. I don't see why this has to be the case. The theories pertaining to memory strengthening, consolidation, and the like seem more plausible than maintaining pathways. Well that seems like a silly assumption to make. What other behaviors are rabbits going to exhibit. Either way this could be, and is an interesting point, and still relies on the fact that dreams exist within an individuals own brain, and not on some sort of separate astral or dream plane like some people suggest. Just trying to think outside the box. ^.^ This is because during the waking state the brain uses a neural system that inhibits the vividness of memories/mental images, which makes sense evolutionarily. These systems however are inhibited themselves during dreams, thus explaining why we can literally see things during dreams and only kind of picture them while awake. Interesting. Do you mind linking me to your reference on this? I'll understand if you don't have it on hand, but I'd like to look into that aspect of the mind a bit more. Especially since it seems to contradict my, and others', experiments with Image Streaming, which I'd link you to, but we're not allowed to reference MM on DV. If this is the case, why is it that although in distinct stages, we essentially dream throughout the night, and don't even start until after 90 minutes of sleep. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I firmly belief that consciousness holds the key to how dreams play out and is the deciding factor in the scientific possibility of shared dreaming. Even if you believe that consciousness is the result of physical mapping and patterns constructed by the brain over time, which it probably is, that mapping exists as retrievable information outside our bodies on the membrane of this universe in two dimensional space, if I'm not mistaken (I'm still working through a lot of these higher concepts, so I'll welcome a correction from someone who knows better). And (again, if I'm not mistaken) that two dimensional space is shared by the rest of the information contained in this universe. The big question is how all that information interacts, and the effect that has on the universe as a whole. Herein lies the key that could potentially unlock the secrets behind not just shared dreaming, but a variety of other proven phenomena that has so far gone unexplained. I'm just glad that it seems like for the most part, we probably agree more than we disagree. I just like to have topics like this discussed, I think it's important. The sentiment is mutual. =)

[lotsofface]

http://web.arizona.edu/~vas/478/luciddreaming.pdf page 124 is where he talks about that neural system. I would suggest reading more of it, Laberge's research is fascinating, especially from a lucid dreamer's standpoint.

[Mzzkc]

Awesome! Thanks for the link!

[mikeac]

1. If it's possible to share dreams, does that mean that if I see a friend in a dream, that he will be having the same dream? If not, how do you differentiate between people who are real dreamers and just figments of your imagination (which I believe is what all DC's are) There is a tutorial on that in the beyond dreaming forums. DCs are created by your mind, and if you ignore them, they are gone. Otherwise, if you try to completely ignore someone in a dream and it doesn't work, then it's a dreamer. 2. Do both you and the other person have to be lucid to share a dream? Hypothetically, no. The non-lucid person may not remember it though. 3. Wouldn't it hypothetically be possible to share a dream with someone I've never seen, and then accurately describe that person physically with no previous knowledge? Yes. It probably wont be accurate, as people's appearances may be unusual or distorted in a dream.