Thread: Dream time against this worlds time.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Yes...through time dilation.

While that may be possible, that would mean we all operate on the same clock, and that's not the case.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Not by making the brain "go faster."

I laughed, just because I don't know how you could do it even if it was possible.

Thought already modifies time, you just don't notice it. I could find my sources if requested, I'd just have to go through the trouble.

Look, we have different perceptions of time. But time is constant. Willing an hour to go faster doesn't mean it will. Changing that perception, intentional or not, is time dilation. When five minutes seem like an hour or when they pass in the blink of an eye, it is simply because you have altered your perception of time. The physical brain itself does operate on roughly the same clock in regards to how quickly it can process information.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Look, we have different perceptions of time. But time is constant. Willing an hour to go faster doesn't mean it will. Changing that perception, intentional or not, is time dilation. When five minutes seem like an hour or when they pass in the blink of an eye, it is simply because you have altered your perception of time. The physical brain itself does operate on roughly the same clock in regards to how quickly it can process information.

youtube.com/watch?v=RR3kEx53IaY

(Sorry I can't hyperlink you, my account has to be 7 days old)

Originally Posted by Will1

youtube.com/watch?v=RR3kEx53IaY

What is this "clock" you're talking about? As far as I can tell, it's the perception of time. Which is what I've been saying. And it's what he's saying. And then there's some shit about dimensions that doesn't really apply.

Originally Posted by Mario92

What is this "clock" you're talking about? As far as I can tell, it's the perception of time. Which is what I've been saying. And it's what he's saying. And then there's some shit about dimensions that doesn't really apply.

Terribly sorry about that, this is the video I meant to share:

youtube.com/watch?v=Dey0rPTkLzM

I don't have time for this. Please state your point clearly and briefly...how is altering perception different than whatever you're carrying on about?

Originally Posted by Mario92

I don't have time for this. Please state your point clearly and briefly...how is altering perception different than whatever you're carrying on about?

I don't have time for it, whenever you get the time take the time and watch the video I shared, its pretty interesting and will sum up what I'm trying to say. It would take me a lot of time to word it precisely.

Well in my experience, dream time is pretty different, because once I woke up to my actual alarm at 6am for school, I was very tired and turned it off and fell back to sleep. (bad idea on my part, I could have slept in way late xD) And then, I ended up having a FA, and having one of the most vivid,long,memorable LDs I have ever had, then I randomly woke up, and the clock was only 6:30am...

Look, that series you linked dealt with a crapload of different stuff on time. Only part of it was devoted to human time. You've obviously seen it. Please find the bit that deals with what is relevant to this thread, and I'll watch it.

Originally Posted by AscendedSleeper

Sorry for quoting part of a post from far back in the argument, but it annoys me when people utilize this fallacy as part of their argument: 10% of brain myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, it is worth noting that dreams can undoubtedly create a convincing illusion of having lasted much longer than they really did. False memories are big components of dream logic.

Edit: Just wanted to make sure I am understood. I am not saying that truly extending perceived time is impossible, I am just pointing out that it is effectively impossible to tell the difference between a convincing illusion and actually dilation of perceived time. I might have misunderstood what you were saying about the brain, and I know you probably weren't referring specifically to the 10% myth, but it seems relevant whenever someone starts talking about us "unlocking the potential of our brains".

Ok, look back, where did I ever say that we only use 10% of our brains? I knew that the idea of that is total crap. But we rarely, if ever, use our brains as fast as they could be used while awake, that was what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by MIIISTERNEUGIT

Ok, look back, where did I ever say that we only use 10% of our brains? I knew that the idea of that is total crap. But we rarely, if ever, use our brains as fast as they could be used while awake, that was what I was trying to say.

But we do when we're asleep? What?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Not by making the brain "go faster."

Here is an example of the brain being able to beat real time, imagine a computer game for a minute. If you have a game running with many players, models (models with many many vertices), advanced collision, etcetera, it will run way slower than a few boxes moving around the screen jumping on each other. So in a dream the brain would be able to process faster if it is only you and another person in an empty white space, as opposed to a war in an amazon with thousand of animals, people, bullets, smoke, screaming.

So if a dream that is very very complicated would have the brain running at a time like real world time, the brain COULD work faster to make longer dream time without dilation with a simple dream. And you could even have a complicated dream that is very cloudy and not very vivid, and leave your memory to fill in the missing resolution.

Originally Posted by Mario92

But we do when we're asleep? What?

No, when asleep you are mind dominant, so you COULD make your brain work towards a greater potential.

Originally Posted by MIIISTERNEUGIT

Here is an example of the brain being able to beat real time, imagine a computer game for a minute. If you have a game running with many players, models (models with many many vertices), advanced collision, etcetera, it will run way slower than a few boxes moving around the screen jumping on each other. So in a dream the brain would be able to process faster if it is only you and another person in an empty white space, as opposed to a war in an amazon with thousand of animals, people, bullets, smoke, screaming.

So if a dream that is very very complicated would have the brain running at a time like real world time, the brain COULD work faster to make longer dream time without dilation with a simple dream. And you could even have a complicated dream that is very cloudy and not very vivid, and leave your memory to fill in the missing resolution.

That's comparing apples to oranges. A computer slows down usually because of bottlenecking in some part. When it slows down, it's because it's working at 100% maximum capacity. Human minds don't experience the same sort of lag. This also doesn't take into account the people who claim to have vivid dreams that last an impossibly long time.

A computer can redirect resources to more important processes to increase the speed of that process. It can't, however, use the graphics card as additional processing power. It can't improve itself on the physical level using RAM. A human brain is similarly limited. There's no way to increase the reaction speed between neurons.

Originally Posted by Mario92

A computer can redirect resources to more important processes to increase the speed of that process. It can't, however, use the graphics card as additional processing power. It can't improve itself on the physical level using RAM. A human brain is similarly limited. There's no way to increase the reaction speed between neurons.

That is pretty much what I said. When a game has less to process the frame rate can go up, which means that it would be able to make the game time go faster to match the same frame rate as if it had more to process, thus making more game time go by than real time. And, as you said, the brain has similar limits as a computer, so when there is less for it to process it can process more at the same time to match the same amount of information being processed as if it had more to process. As an example, it could process 2 milliseconds of dream time in one processing frame as opposed to 1, due to the fact less needs to be processed at a time, allowing a greater range of time to fit into each block of processing time.

Originally Posted by Mario92

It can't, however, use the graphics card as additional processing power. It can't improve itself on the physical level using RAM.

This is a little off topic, but it IS possible to process any information on the GPU, it is just very slow. And a computer can use the hard drive like RAM, it is just a little slower.

Originally Posted by MIIISTERNEUGIT

That is pretty much what I said. When a game has less to process the frame rate can go up, which means that it would be able to make the game time go faster to match the same frame rate as if it had more to process, thus making more game time go by than real time. And, as you said, the brain has similar limits as a computer, so when there is less for it to process it can process more at the same time to match the same amount of information being processed as if it had more to process. As an example, it could process 2 milliseconds of dream time in one processing frame as opposed to 1, due to the fact less needs to be processed at a time, allowing a greater range of time to fit into each block of processing time.

The problem is, if reaction speed cannot be increased, more neurons will have to fire. And brain scans comparing dreaming to waking thought/active thought processing don't show significant increases in brain activity during dreaming over active waking thought. In other words, your brain isn't working faster. Besides that, there's still the problem of people who have vivid dreams that last a long time. If more neurons aren't being activated, and having "fuzzier" dreams decreases the number of neurons required (which is a huge assumption, by the way), then these people are not explained well.

Originally Posted by Mario92

The problem is, if reaction speed cannot be increased, more neurons will have to fire. And brain scans comparing dreaming to waking thought/active thought processing don't show significant increases in brain activity during dreaming over active waking thought. In other words, your brain isn't working faster. Besides that, there's still the problem of people who have vivid dreams that last a long time. If more neurons aren't being activated, and having "fuzzier" dreams decreases the number of neurons required (which is a huge assumption, by the way), then these people are not explained well.

Ok, I am not sure what is up with those other people, maybe they lie, or it is something beyond us. But you still don't get my point.

Here is a different metaphor:

You are a famous painter. You are working with a museum that requires you to paint 10 paintings in 20 days. These paintings have to be extremely detailed with complex scenes. Your painting skills matches this speed perfectly. Now you quit working at the museum and are hired by a different one, they want the same amount of paintings in the same time frame, but they want very simple paintings of different foods. Making all of the paintings for that time frame takes you 10 days because of the simplicity. Now you have a bunch of extra time so you decide to start the paintings for the next 20 days.

Now, for dreaming, if creating super complex scenes for one second takes one waking second to complete, and a super simple scene takes half of a waking second to complete, then the brain has extra time to work on the next second, creating the illusion that it is working faster.

But here's the problem. We have no evidence that simple scenes actually are easier and faster to make than complex ones; nor do we have any evidence to suggest that, once again, saving resources allows you to perceive time faster. This is still assuming different parts of the brain with their own designated functions are interchangeable.

Originally Posted by Mario92

But here's the problem. We have no evidence that simple scenes actually are easier and faster to make than complex ones; nor do we have any evidence to suggest that, once again, saving resources allows you to perceive time faster. This is still assuming different parts of the brain with their own designated functions are interchangeable.

Originally Posted by MIIISTERNEUGIT

Look, ideas sound nice sometimes. It doesn't mean they're true. It isn't my fault your metaphors are broken.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Look, ideas sound nice sometimes. It doesn't mean they're true. It isn't my fault your metaphors are broken.

Ok, I know you are rather stubborn, and your view is that everyone else is wrong. I can live with that, I will just leave you at peace, and will stop trying to move the unmovable.

We just have no reason to believe that it takes your brain considerably more effort to create a flower over a field of flowers. I know one guy who can't visualize a red square to save his life, but can come up with an entire Colosseum in boggling detail with little effort.

I like how we are arguing about what we are using to argue kind MIND-blowing wouldn't you say