Thread: Inherited Lucid Dreaming

Originally Posted by Pan

Exactly.

Loaf you seem to be completely overlooking the natural lucid dreamer. There are plenty of them, who have been lucid dreaming regularly for as long as they can remember. For them, it's an innate ability, which could have been inherited. Sleep paralysis and other sleep disorders are hereditary, as well as personality characteristics, and ways of thinking...so why is it wrong to theorize that lucid dreaming might also be hereditary? And who are you to so arrogantly make the claim that it isn't? We are only speculating...which is a good thing. It fosters creative thought and has often led to great scientific discoveries. You should try widening your gaze a bit.

When you first found out about lucid dreaming, how many years into your life were you before you started to practice lucid dreaming? How long had you not been using those areas of the mind engaged by lucid dreaming? 20 years? 30? The natural lucid dreamer (at least all of them that I have met) seems to be someone who experienced a lucid dream early on in their life (childhood has been the case 100% in my own personal experience) and took that experience seriously and continued to come back to it, developing skill in it over time. Children grasp concepts much easier than adults, and I bet if someone told you during your childhood you could become lucid in dreams and do all the things you can't do while awake, you as a child would go to bed every night so focused on lucid dreaming you'd basically be guaranteeing yourself a lucid dream. Over the years, all of that practice that never seemed like practice adds up. Innate ability or concept grasped and practiced early with dedication into adulthood?

Sleep paralysis is not a sleep disorder, it's an automatic process that prevents you from physically acting out your dreams with your muscles moving and contracting. While you sleep and are dreaming, your brain, hormones, and muscles are all active. If you are struck in the arm multiple times in a dream, struggle with an enemy, and then are shocked awake, when you open your eyes, your breathing is intensified, your arm is in pain where you were hit, and you are sweating from your struggle with an enemy. Sleep paralysis prevented you from doing all of these things physically, and rolling out of bed, or even striking your partner. Sleep paralysis is a harmless, automatic process, not a disorder. Not being able to get sleep paralysis would be a disorder.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

Sleep paralysis is not a sleep disorder, it's an automatic process that prevents you from physically acting out your dreams with your muscles moving and contracting. While you sleep and are dreaming, your brain, hormones, and muscles are all active. If you are struck in the arm multiple times in a dream, struggle with an enemy, and then are shocked awake, when you open your eyes, your breathing is intensified, your arm is in pain where you were hit, and you are sweating from your struggle with an enemy. Sleep paralysis prevented you from doing all of these things physically, and rolling out of bed, or even striking your partner. Sleep paralysis is a harmless, automatic process, not a disorder. Not being able to get sleep paralysis would be a disorder.

Oh, great...and now we have someone who doesn't even know the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia. And *I'M* the one spreading misinformation?? Haha. Yeah. Right. Ugh...It's tiresome having to do everyone's homework for them.

Sleep Paralysis...yes...it is qualified as a sleep disorder...

Sleep Paralysis is possibly a hereditary disorder in which one experiences very frightening seconds or minutes of total body paralysis with little respiration and eye movements. A victim in this state feels awake, but he cannot move or speak. In addition to the immobility, the common symptoms include feeling choked or suffocated, hearing strange noises like footsteps and voices, seeing beings or dark shadows, and feeling an existance of someone in the room. Although these symptoms often direct the victims to believe in ghosts, mistransmission of neural signals in the brain causes Sleep Paralysis. When a person sleeps, his brain sends signals to inhibit any muscle contraction. If he comes into consciousness before the brain sends signals to activate muscle contraction, he cannot move his body, and consequently, become "paralyzed".

You are confusing it with REM Atonia...

Physiologically, certain neurons in the brain stem, known as REM sleep-on cells, (located in the pontine tegmentum), are particularly active during REM sleep, and are probably responsible for its occurrence. The release of certain neurotransmitters, the monoamines (norepinephrine, serotonin and histamine), is completely shut down during REM. This causes REM atonia, a state in which the motor neurons are not stimulated and thus the body's muscles do not move. Lack of such REM atonia causes REM behavior disorder; sufferers act out the movements occurring in their dreams.

Sleep paralysis and REM Atonia are two very different things. Please get your facts straight next time.

And loaf...I do NOT spread misinformation, and if you accuse me of doing so 1 one time without basis I will not hesitate to ban your insolent arrogant little ass for making up lies and slandering my good name.

Originally Posted by Pan

And loaf...I do NOT spread misinformation, and if you accuse me of doing so 1 one time without basis I will not hesitate to ban your insolent arrogant little ass for making up lies and slandering my good name.

So to clarify...if a Mod tells you that your theory is nonsense, that's okay because they are spreading the light of truth. But if you tell a Mod that their theory is nonsense, it's ban-worthy?

You're little homework rant with the rolleyes smiley came across much more arogant and insolent than anything Loaf said.

Originally Posted by Velzhaed

So to clarify...if a Mod tells you that your theory is nonsense, that's okay because they are spreading the light of truth. But if you tell a Mod that their theory is nonsense, it's ban-worthy?

You're little homework rant with the rolleyes smiley came across much more arogant and insolent than anything Loaf said.

Thanks for your concern, I actually find that very unprofessional and perhaps even abusive that I've been threatened with a ban because I strongly disagree with a moderators opinion. I am bringing this up privately on the Talk To Staff board.

Originally Posted by Pan

Oh, great...and now we have someone who doesn't even know the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia. And *I'M* the one spreading misinformation?? Haha. Yeah. Right. Ugh...It's tiresome having to do everyone's homework for them.

Sleep Paralysis...yes...it is qualified as a sleep disorder...



You are confusing it with REM Atonia...



Sleep paralysis and REM Atonia are two very different things. Please get your facts straight next time.

And loaf...I do NOT spread misinformation, and if you accuse me of doing so 1 one time without basis I will not hesitate to ban your insolent arrogant little ass for making up lies and slandering my good name.

So then let me present this question. Since I experience sleep paralysis only when I take afternoon naps, always following my awakening from a dream, usually lost lucidity, or a sudden awakening such as my dog joining me in my bed, or a loud noise in my house, do I have a sleeping disorder? It does not affect me at any other point except for during a nap, when I'm most capable of lucid dreaming and dreaming in general. All of the "scary" effects of sleep paralysis I have found to be me simply hanging out in the space between dreaming and awake. I can hear voices and "see" hallucinations, but they are simply coming from the dream state. If I relax into the SP, I will enter a dream shortly after, if I fight it with the intention of waking up, after a minute or two I will awaken and am capable of moving my limbs freely. Sleep paralysis, REM Atonia, they are one in the same. The only difference is SP is waking before your brain sends signals to enable the muscles to contract. That doesn't make it a disorder, despite whoever qualified it as such. All one has to do is relax, and they will awaken or drift back into REM sleep shortly depending on their choice of action. My brother has never experienced SP, but he doesn't take naps either, which disproves your clear-cut statement of SP being hereditary.

I will say no more on the subject, but I stand by my original statement. Sleep paralysis is harmless, people only feel the emotions they do because they panic due to lack of knowledge on the process taking place in their bodies and mind. The name REM Atonia was about the only new information gained.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

Children grasp concepts much easier than adults.

Wha?

Originally Posted by Velzhaed

Wha?

If I told you at 5 years old about lucid dreaming, how much more effort would you have put into practicing it, versus if I had told you at 20 years old when you had a (hypothetical) clear-cut belief that dreaming was pointless, and control not possible, despite the truth that one can lucid dream? Children are highly receptive to learning in their first 5 years, more-so than adults. Children can learn multiple languages easier than an adult can, among other things. That's how you get child prodigies.

Obviously the information being taught has to be valid, but it can be grasped easily if you use the right method. Similar to "brainetics" or "your baby can read" methods of teaching kids to read and perform math in their head. My 5 year old cousin is rather skilled at Street Fighter IV after only 10 hours of teaching him the mechanics of the game the way you'd teach someone who wanted to go pro in the game. I have friends who have played with me for over a year and he is almost as good as them because he understands the game on a mechanics level based on what I taught him. Obviously he's not perfect and makes mistakes and mental mind games get the better of him at times, but he learns fast, and I've learned that's pretty common of children in general. They learn quickly if they are taught in a way that is engaging.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

If I told you at 5 years old about lucid dreaming, how much more effort would you have put into practicing it, versus if I had told you at 20 years old when you had a (hypothetical) clear-cut belief that dreaming was pointless, and control not possible, despite the truth that one can lucid dream?

I couldn't agree less, I can safely say that idea does not represent most dreamers here. I didn't bother getting into lucid dreaming until at a later age when I had the patience to read through material, and the ability to control my sleep patterns. A 5 year old would not understand lucid dreams, let alone develop their own methods. That is really outrageous to even humour.

Originally Posted by Loaf

I couldn't agree less, I can safely say that idea does not represent most dreamers here. I didn't bother getting into lucid dreaming until at a later age when I had the patience to read through material, and the ability to control my sleep patterns. A 5 year old would not understand lucid dreams, let alone develop their own methods. That is really outrageous to even humour.

The bold statement is only an assumption you have made, not fact whatsoever.

At a later age, you had gone how many years without actively pursuing dreaming? How many years without engaging those parts of the mind that lucid dreaming engages? Being a proficient lucid dreamer requires practice just like any other skill one acquires. If you are proficient at something and go 20 years without using that skill, will you be able to use it how you did 20 years ago with great skill and control? No. However if you are still young with all of those faculties of the mind still ripe and only briefly unused, why is it exactly that one could not understand a natural part of our experience as humans, just because they are young? Children don't have the misfortune of having a predisposition belief-wise to something like dreaming, and are curious about everything. Most wonder what it is before they are then told what they believe about dreaming later on in life. If that belief changes, it's only because they found out what they intuitively thought about dreaming in the first place to be true.

Explain to me what is so confounding and complex about lucid dreaming that a 5 year old could not understand it. They can experience it as freely as any adult, so why can they not understand it?

Many of the natural lucid dreamers as they are called, started lucid dreaming in childhood.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

The bold statement is only an assumption you have made, not fact whatsoever.

Having lived with and therefore been around a fair share of 5 year olds and had nothing more interesting to talk about than dreams with them, I have talked about lucid dreaming with many, and even tried to get my sister into it and the case is always the same. They don't fully appreciate or understand how to utilize sleeping techniques. You must not be very good with children if you honestly believe a 5 year old has more mental capacity to learn lucid dreaming than an adult; come on, that is just stupid to even suggest.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Having lived with and therefore been around a fair share of 5 year olds and had nothing more interesting to talk about than dreams with them, I have talked about lucid dreaming with many, and even tried to get my sister into it and the case is always the same. They don't fully appreciate or understand how to utilize sleeping techniques. You must not be very good with children if you honestly believe a 5 year old has more mental capacity to learn lucid dreaming than an adult; come on, that is just stupid to even suggest.

I could actually say that about you, because I have had no problem in aiding my younger cousins to lucid dream. For some it is primarily a weekend thing because of school. You cannot explain things in a manner too complex for their current intellect, and the way you explain things needs to engage their imagination right away, so that they actively seek information. If that is not what happens, then you are at fault in your teaching method, not the child. The only sleeping technique they need is WBTB. 6 hours of sleep, 1 hour awake (usually a drawing activity or something to engage their imagination even more), 2 more hours of sleep. I did not specifically state that children have more mental capacity to learn lucid dreaming than an adult. I said they grasp concepts easier than adults. Dreaming, being very imagination based and abstract, is right up a child's curiosity alley. Call it what you will, to each his own.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

If I told you at 5 years old about lucid dreaming, how much more effort would you have put into practicing it, versus if I had told you at 20 years old when you had a (hypothetical) clear-cut belief that dreaming was pointless, and control not possible, despite the truth that one can lucid dream? Children are highly receptive to learning in their first 5 years, more-so than adults. Children can learn multiple languages easier than an adult can, among other things. That's how you get child prodigies.

Obviously the information being taught has to be valid, but it can be grasped easily if you use the right method. Similar to "brainetics" or "your baby can read" methods of teaching kids to read and perform math in their head. My 5 year old cousin is rather skilled at Street Fighter IV after only 10 hours of teaching him the mechanics of the game the way you'd teach someone who wanted to go pro in the game. I have friends who have played with me for over a year and he is almost as good as them because he understands the game on a mechanics level based on what I taught him. Obviously he's not perfect and makes mistakes and mental mind games get the better of him at times, but he learns fast, and I've learned that's pretty common of children in general. They learn quickly if they are taught in a way that is engaging.

Now it may be the fact that I'm an adult confusing me here

The hinge of your argument is that adults come with a bag of beliefs that undermine their LDing, while a child doesn't. That's not a feature of being an adult- it's a feature of being close-minded. Sure- a kid won't dismiss LDing offhand. But they also believe in Harry Potter. Being an adult, however, gives you an advantage in the discipline and determination department. I'm not saying you couldn't teach a kid to LD, but I don't think they have a natural affinity for grasping concepts. In fact the lightning coming out of my hands is even more likely to make an adult do an RC than a child.

Originally Posted by KingYoshi

Just to throw this out there, I found out a couple months ago that my grandfather is a natural lucid dreamer. Me, my father, and I were watching Inception and I brought up lucid dreaming. My dad knows I am a lucid dreamer and he has had one himself basically from hearing me talk about it (which is understandable). What blew my mind, however, was my 72 year old grandpa joined in and I learned he had been naturally lucid dreaming all his life. Now, he didn't have them every night, but he said he has had around 5-10 a month ever since he can remember. Sooooo, its also possible that it skips a generation like so many other inherited traits. Just saying.

Everyone is a natural lucid dreamer. What would an 'unnatural lucid dream' be?

Originally Posted by Velzhaed

Now it may be the fact that I'm an adult confusing me here

The hinge of your argument is that adults come with a bag of beliefs that undermine their LDing, while a child doesn't. That's not a feature of being an adult- it's a feature of being close-minded. Sure- a kid won't dismiss LDing offhand. But they also believe in Harry Potter. Being an adult, however, gives you an advantage in the discipline and determination department. I'm not saying you couldn't teach a kid to LD, but I don't think they have a natural affinity for grasping concepts. In fact the lightning coming out of my hands is even more likely to make an adult do an RC than a child.

Adults come with a bag of experiences that shape their beliefs, while a child doesn't. I will agree that one has to have a degree of closed-mindedness to just dismiss LDing, but one can only be closed-minded if they are an adult, or near that status. Children are naturally curious and open minded, and yes they do believe everything, and that's why they need guidance. But, they can still be taught, and easily so long as you use the right method of teaching them. If they are infatuated with Harry Potter, well in their dreams they can do magic, and can adventure with Harry Potter if they wanted to. How much attention do you think you'd have from the kid if you told them that? Full attention. They'd want to know everything they had to do, what to look for, everything if it's true that they can experience it, and they will believe they can. It's a very common theme in this forum and among lucid dreamers that by going to bed believing you will lucid dream 100%, usually, that is the outcome. Things that we'd consider complex such as reality checking, is not too hard for a child if you give them an easy one to perform and remember such as holding their nostrils closed and trying to breathe through them. If you can, you're dreaming, if not, you're awake. A child engages their imagination more than an adult do they not? Dreaming experiences are highly based on your own imagination. A child's determination to adventure with Harry Potter will eclipse any adult determination just to lucid dream in the first place.

That's because children ARE open minded and curious. All children are like this starting out, and it's their parents and other adults that shape the beliefs and behaviors they display in a place like school.

If a child's mom tells them "dreaming doesn't exist", the child will believe that, and defend what his mom told him for forever and a day, because that's his mom and she has to be right. That's a belief being set in the curious child who had to ask a question to receive the response that shaped the belief in the first place. It's not that the child isn't naturally curious, it's that his curiosity has already been met with an answer from a trusted source of information, which creates the belief and removes the curiosity from that particular subject.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

If a child's mom tells them "dreaming doesn't exist", the child will believe that, and defend what his mom told him for forever and a day, because that's his mom and she has to be right.

You must have a very strange relationship with your parents. If my mother told me dreaming didn't exists I would not have believed her...because I had dreams. If what you're saying was true every child would have the same religious views as their parents. What age range are you talking about? It sounds like very young, but you used your 12 year old cousin to illustrate your point.

Originally Posted by Velzhaed

You must have a very strange relationship with your parents. If my mother told me dreaming didn't exists I would not have believed her...because I had dreams. If what you're saying was true every child would have the same religious views as their parents. What age range are you talking about? It sounds like very young, but you used your 12 year old cousin to illustrate your point.

Why would you imply I have a strange relationship with my parents based on a hypothetical example? Every child, from age 4 - 13 pretty much does have the same religious views as their parents. Show me a 6, 8, 10, or 12 year old who's got differing religious views from their parents based on knowledge they've gathered on their own. And I used my 5 year old cousin as an example, so I don't know what you mean by a 12 year old, as I never mentioned one.