Thread: Inherited Lucid Dreaming

No.

You can't pass on a state of mind. No more than being related to a Buddhist will allow you to inherit spirituality. Lucid dreaming isn't a skill, its a discipline. Pretty sure you don't 'inherit' skills anyway. Not biologically ha ha.

How come there are people who can lucid dream easier than the majority ? This is clearly a genetic difference; You can even call it a mutation, but it's towards evolution in my opinion. It'd be great to hear some more opinions

Originally Posted by Whear

How come there are people who can lucid dream easier than the majority ?

Why are some people better at writing than others, or drawing, or calculating mathematics? Its not genetic. You effectively asking why we as people aren't all the same. That doesn't even dignify a response now does it?

Lucid dreaming, like any other skill, is learned, not passed on via genetics, as Loaf has said. While yes, some learn it more easily or are a "natural" at it, that applies to many skills--sports, math, reading, creative writing, etc. I'm sure you've come across someone naturally good at those things, or another such subject.

I don't think practicing a skill changes your genetic makeup. If you have a genetic predisposition to be a good dreamer, it will be passed on whether or not you practice it.

If dreaming offered some sort of reproductive advantage, then it could change future generations. Sadly, dreaming doesn't really seem to increase my chances with the opposite sex.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Sadly, dreaming doesn't really seem to increase my chances with the opposite sex.

But plenty with the same sex, w00t. *raises hand but nobody high fives*



...

Originally Posted by Whear

since all skills are coded in our genes, could someone who is well trained into lucid dreaming pass this amazing skill to his descendants ? I'm not saying the inheritor should be able to lucid dream without any practice/training, but does he have a great potential at doing it ? Would he do it more naturally if it already has the information in his DNA ? That would mean that we're not only expanding our own limits, but the limits of the whole future humanity ( viewed from a large perspective ) I'd like to hear your opinions about this, especially if you have some knowledge about genetic inheritance ( mine is at most basic

I believe it's possible for someone to inherit a natural ability to lucid dream, or at least, a predilection for becoming a lucid dreamer at some point in their life.

Originally Posted by Loaf

No.

You can't pass on a state of mind. No more than being related to a Buddhist will allow you to inherit spirituality. Lucid dreaming isn't a skill, its a discipline. Pretty sure you don't 'inherit' skills anyway. Not biologically ha ha.

Lucid dreaming is not just a state of mind...it's a physiological process. There are plenty of biological factors that could predispose someone to lucid dreaming. The topography of certain areas of the brain, specific biological chemicals, hormones and their concentrations...these could all potentially play a role in someone having a natural ability for lucid dreaming. And as we know, of course, physical characteristics are indeed inherited. Therefore it seems more than reasonable to consider the possibility that lucid dreaming...or more so...a predisposition for having lucid dreams, or more easily learning how to lucid dream, could also be inherited. For example, we know that certain areas of the brain are turned off while we dream, and that lucid dreamers are reactivating some of these areas when they have a lucid dream. Some people might have a brain chemistry that allows them to do this more easily. Some might even, for whatever reason, have a brain chemistry that makes it extremely difficult for them to turn on those logic centers while dreaming and might never experience a lucid dream. Another example, we know that certain neurotransmitters play a role in lucid dreaming...if, hypothetically, having a higher concentration of a certain neurotransmitter predisposes one to lucid dreaming, then this predisposition could also be passed to offspring.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Why are some people better at writing than others, or drawing, or calculating mathematics? Its not genetic. You effectively asking why we as people aren't all the same. That doesn't even dignify a response now does it?

I find it humorous that you feel your statement doesn't warrant a response, and yet it is wrong. All those things you mention, are the result of both nature and nurture. A combination of genetics and environment. Yes, people can inherit artistic, mathematic, and athletic abilities(nature), which can be developed with practice into great skill (nurture). Frankly, your assertions are quite ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Pan

Lucid dreaming is not just a state of mind...it's a physiological process. There are plenty of biological factors that could predispose someone to lucid dreaming. The topography of certain areas of the brain, specific biological chemicals, hormones and their concentrations...these could all potentially play a role in someone having a natural ability for lucid dreaming. And as we know, of course, physical characteristics are indeed inherited. Therefore it seems more than reasonable to consider the possibility that lucid dreaming...or more so...a predisposition for having lucid dreams, or more easily learning how to lucid dream, could also be inherited. For example, we know that certain areas of the brain are turned off while we dream, and that lucid dreamers are reactivating some of these areas when they have a lucid dream. Some people might have a brain chemistry that allows them to do this more easily.

All of this is total nonsense. Lucid dreaming, again, is a discipline. You do not adopt it genetically, you can make up a theory and try to back it up using whatever you want. The process of being in a dream and achieving REM is something everyone has, that is not lucid dreaming. Being lucid is allowing yourself to become aware and enter a different state of mind. Don't spread such terrible mis-information so passionately.

Saying you can be biologically pre-disposed is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Loaf

But plenty with the same sex, w00t. *raises hand but nobody high fives*



...

*Gives you a high five*

I wouldn't call the idea of a biological pre-disposition ludicrous.

We have so many different abilities, and even though most of them can be developed and improved in some fashion (practice / learning etc), some of us have a pre-disposition for some abilities, and some for others.
But there are so many things involved in this, it's impossible to tell what you're naturally good at without trying.
Genetics play a role with many things, so does your education, your social circle, your upbringing, your beliefs, your state of mind, and many more things.

I think it's wrong to simply exclude genetics in the case of lucid dreaming, considering how many things factor into being naturally good at something.

Genetics have no more effect on lucid dreaming ability than they do with your ability to be imaginative, philosophical, or being able to whistle loudly. If anybody would actually like to present some evidence of genetics playing a role beyond a baseless theory with no backing whatsoever, please do.

I think everybody understood your point, Loaf. I never even classified my thought as a theory from the beginning; I said it was just an idea that passed through my head. I don't have the necessary knowledge to back it up so I never took it for real. I just imagined how amazing one would feel if it was proven that everything we learn may have started in the past and will potentially develop even more in the future generations. Why so much negativism ?

Its not negativism just because I have very clear-cut disagreement. Perceive it however you want.

I'm curious if I understand your opinion correctly.
Do you believe that genetics play no role whatsoever with abilities such as lucid dreaming, imagination etc,
or do you believe that the influence of genetics is minor compared to other influences?

Maybe I misread something. I fully agree that you cannot pass on training or experience, that wouldn't make any sense.
However, there are genetic predispositions for certain skills, making it easier to improve and develop them, and you can pass on this predisposition.
I remember that we had a long discussion about how heritage influences intelligence and other things during my genetics classes in school, but it was quite a few years ago, and unfortunately I can remember very little of it.
I do believe that we were told that there was insufficient knowledge to tell how important genetic heritage and environmental factors are compared to each other,
but I also believe that we were told that genetics pretty much influence everything, at least to a small degree.

To use one of your examples:
Whilst it is impossible to pass on the skill of whistling loudly, you will pass on some genetic code of the muscular structure of your mouth, the structure of your lungs and so on.
The question is how much of a role these play in whistling loudly. Maybe it is very little, and it's mostly about understanding how to do it and exercising a lot, but your genetic heritage still plays a role, even if it is a very small one.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I don't think practicing a skill changes your genetic makeup. If you have a genetic predisposition to be a good dreamer, it will be passed on whether or not you practice it.

Right, but even someone with a predisposition to a skill has to practice and hone said skill. Only in rare cases will you find a prodigy that is just able to do something without any work/practice.

I'm saying lucid dreaming is a minor "skill". Its just teaching yourself to be more aware. I don't think there is any genetic influence for the next generation, and if there was being pre-disposed to awareness isn't going to make you a lucid dreamer, because you won't understand anything about lucid dreaming initially anyway and will have to start from scratch like everyone else.

Originally Posted by Hyu

Maybe I misread something. I fully agree that you cannot pass on training or experience, that wouldn't make any sense.
However, there are genetic predispositions for certain skills, making it easier to improve and develop them, and you can pass on this predisposition.

Exactly.

Loaf you seem to be completely overlooking the natural lucid dreamer. There are plenty of them, who have been lucid dreaming regularly for as long as they can remember. For them, it's an innate ability, which could have been inherited. Sleep paralysis and other sleep disorders are hereditary, as well as personality characteristics, and ways of thinking...so why is it wrong to theorize that lucid dreaming might also be hereditary? And who are you to so arrogantly make the claim that it isn't? We are only speculating...which is a good thing. It fosters creative thought and has often led to great scientific discoveries. You should try widening your gaze a bit.

Originally Posted by Pan

Exactly.

Loaf you seem to be completely overlooking the natural lucid dreamer. There are plenty of them, who have been lucid dreaming regularly for as long as they can remember. For them, it's an innate ability, which could have been inherited. Sleep paralysis and other sleep disorders are hereditary, as well as personality characteristics, and ways of thinking...so why is it wrong to theorize that lucid dreaming might also be hereditary? And who are you to so arrogantly make the claim that it isn't? We are only speculating...which is a good thing. It fosters creative thought and has often led to great scientific discoveries. You should try widening your gaze a bit.

When you first found out about lucid dreaming, how many years into your life were you before you started to practice lucid dreaming? How long had you not been using those areas of the mind engaged by lucid dreaming? 20 years? 30? The natural lucid dreamer (at least all of them that I have met) seems to be someone who experienced a lucid dream early on in their life (childhood has been the case 100% in my own personal experience) and took that experience seriously and continued to come back to it, developing skill in it over time. Children grasp concepts much easier than adults, and I bet if someone told you during your childhood you could become lucid in dreams and do all the things you can't do while awake, you as a child would go to bed every night so focused on lucid dreaming you'd basically be guaranteeing yourself a lucid dream. Over the years, all of that practice that never seemed like practice adds up. Innate ability or concept grasped and practiced early with dedication into adulthood?

Sleep paralysis is not a sleep disorder, it's an automatic process that prevents you from physically acting out your dreams with your muscles moving and contracting. While you sleep and are dreaming, your brain, hormones, and muscles are all active. If you are struck in the arm multiple times in a dream, struggle with an enemy, and then are shocked awake, when you open your eyes, your breathing is intensified, your arm is in pain where you were hit, and you are sweating from your struggle with an enemy. Sleep paralysis prevented you from doing all of these things physically, and rolling out of bed, or even striking your partner. Sleep paralysis is a harmless, automatic process, not a disorder. Not being able to get sleep paralysis would be a disorder.

Originally Posted by Pan

Loaf you seem to be completely overlooking the natural lucid dreamer. There are plenty of them, who have been lucid dreaming regularly for as long as they can remember. For them, it's an innate ability, which could have been inherited. Sleep paralysis and other sleep disorders are hereditary, as well as personality characteristics, and ways of thinking...so why is it wrong to theorize that lucid dreaming might also be hereditary? And who are you to so arrogantly make the claim that it isn't?

I don't believe in natural lucid dreaming. I believe everyone sometimes realizes they are asleep, they just don't act upon it.

Originally Posted by Pan

We are only speculating...which is a good thing. It fosters creative thought and has often led to great scientific discoveries. You should try widening your gaze a bit.

Are you suggesting I should just accept any old theories people make up rather than scrutinize them as they, and science, should? You might like spreading mis-information but I don't.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

Sleep paralysis is not a sleep disorder, it's an automatic process that prevents you from physically acting out your dreams with your muscles moving and contracting. While you sleep and are dreaming, your brain, hormones, and muscles are all active. If you are struck in the arm multiple times in a dream, struggle with an enemy, and then are shocked awake, when you open your eyes, your breathing is intensified, your arm is in pain where you were hit, and you are sweating from your struggle with an enemy. Sleep paralysis prevented you from doing all of these things physically, and rolling out of bed, or even striking your partner. Sleep paralysis is a harmless, automatic process, not a disorder. Not being able to get sleep paralysis would be a disorder.

Oh, great...and now we have someone who doesn't even know the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia. And *I'M* the one spreading misinformation?? Haha. Yeah. Right. Ugh...It's tiresome having to do everyone's homework for them.

Sleep Paralysis...yes...it is qualified as a sleep disorder...

Sleep Paralysis is possibly a hereditary disorder in which one experiences very frightening seconds or minutes of total body paralysis with little respiration and eye movements. A victim in this state feels awake, but he cannot move or speak. In addition to the immobility, the common symptoms include feeling choked or suffocated, hearing strange noises like footsteps and voices, seeing beings or dark shadows, and feeling an existance of someone in the room. Although these symptoms often direct the victims to believe in ghosts, mistransmission of neural signals in the brain causes Sleep Paralysis. When a person sleeps, his brain sends signals to inhibit any muscle contraction. If he comes into consciousness before the brain sends signals to activate muscle contraction, he cannot move his body, and consequently, become "paralyzed".

You are confusing it with REM Atonia...

Physiologically, certain neurons in the brain stem, known as REM sleep-on cells, (located in the pontine tegmentum), are particularly active during REM sleep, and are probably responsible for its occurrence. The release of certain neurotransmitters, the monoamines (norepinephrine, serotonin and histamine), is completely shut down during REM. This causes REM atonia, a state in which the motor neurons are not stimulated and thus the body's muscles do not move. Lack of such REM atonia causes REM behavior disorder; sufferers act out the movements occurring in their dreams.

Sleep paralysis and REM Atonia are two very different things. Please get your facts straight next time.

And loaf...I do NOT spread misinformation, and if you accuse me of doing so 1 one time without basis I will not hesitate to ban your insolent arrogant little ass for making up lies and slandering my good name.

Originally Posted by Pan

And loaf...I do NOT spread misinformation, and if you accuse me of doing so 1 one time without basis I will not hesitate to ban your insolent arrogant little ass for making up lies and slandering my good name.

So to clarify...if a Mod tells you that your theory is nonsense, that's okay because they are spreading the light of truth. But if you tell a Mod that their theory is nonsense, it's ban-worthy?

You're little homework rant with the rolleyes smiley came across much more arogant and insolent than anything Loaf said.

Originally Posted by Velzhaed

So to clarify...if a Mod tells you that your theory is nonsense, that's okay because they are spreading the light of truth. But if you tell a Mod that their theory is nonsense, it's ban-worthy?

You're little homework rant with the rolleyes smiley came across much more arogant and insolent than anything Loaf said.

Thanks for your concern, I actually find that very unprofessional and perhaps even abusive that I've been threatened with a ban because I strongly disagree with a moderators opinion. I am bringing this up privately on the Talk To Staff board.

Originally Posted by Pan

Oh, great...and now we have someone who doesn't even know the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia. And *I'M* the one spreading misinformation?? Haha. Yeah. Right. Ugh...It's tiresome having to do everyone's homework for them.

Sleep Paralysis...yes...it is qualified as a sleep disorder...



You are confusing it with REM Atonia...



Sleep paralysis and REM Atonia are two very different things. Please get your facts straight next time.

And loaf...I do NOT spread misinformation, and if you accuse me of doing so 1 one time without basis I will not hesitate to ban your insolent arrogant little ass for making up lies and slandering my good name.

So then let me present this question. Since I experience sleep paralysis only when I take afternoon naps, always following my awakening from a dream, usually lost lucidity, or a sudden awakening such as my dog joining me in my bed, or a loud noise in my house, do I have a sleeping disorder? It does not affect me at any other point except for during a nap, when I'm most capable of lucid dreaming and dreaming in general. All of the "scary" effects of sleep paralysis I have found to be me simply hanging out in the space between dreaming and awake. I can hear voices and "see" hallucinations, but they are simply coming from the dream state. If I relax into the SP, I will enter a dream shortly after, if I fight it with the intention of waking up, after a minute or two I will awaken and am capable of moving my limbs freely. Sleep paralysis, REM Atonia, they are one in the same. The only difference is SP is waking before your brain sends signals to enable the muscles to contract. That doesn't make it a disorder, despite whoever qualified it as such. All one has to do is relax, and they will awaken or drift back into REM sleep shortly depending on their choice of action. My brother has never experienced SP, but he doesn't take naps either, which disproves your clear-cut statement of SP being hereditary.

I will say no more on the subject, but I stand by my original statement. Sleep paralysis is harmless, people only feel the emotions they do because they panic due to lack of knowledge on the process taking place in their bodies and mind. The name REM Atonia was about the only new information gained.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

Children grasp concepts much easier than adults.

Wha?