Putting an End to Misinformation

**SystemsLock** · 07-22-2011 06:52 AM

In the past few weeks I've noticed several people spreading misinformation about dreaming. And I'd like to correct some of this for people now.

I recently took a coarse on neurology. We had a section devoted to sleep and dreams. When a chart of the sleep stages was handed out many were surprised to find (and some thought it was mislabeled) that REM (dreaming) sleep occurred in the stage of lightest sleep rather than the deepest. Here is an approximation of that chart.

Of course I'd known this for some time yet I was surprised to find out how many people didn't, including those on this forum. Most assume (incorrectly) that dreams occur in deep sleep. Due to the foreign and bizzare nature of dreams this might be a logical connection. But it is completely false. The movie Inception is one example of this myth being propagated. The characters in the film took heavy anesthetics to increase their ability to dream. However, scientists know that you generally do not dream at all while under heavy sleeping medication. In fact, it is the opposite. Cognitive boosters such as nootropics are the real REM enhancers.

If you don't believe me, take a look at another chart.

As you can see. The section labeled REM looks closest to the waking state. Although the later stages seem more "active" this is not the case. The chart is not measuring brain activity but rather "sleep spindles" a measure of sleep depth. The least of which occur in the waking state and REM sleep.

For more proof here are several reasons we know that dreams occur in light sleep.

Deep sleep stages occur early in the night (when you are most tired) while dreams occur near the morning (when you are most awake)
The brain is mostly unconscious in deep sleep, the rich narratives and self awareness we feel during dreams are not possible without some frontal lobe activity
Sleeping in unfamiliar places or in unfamiliar ways puts your body on alert, causing you to sleep lighter (evolutionary defense mechanism). However this is also where the most vivid dreams are reported.
Generally, the dreams determined to be the most "vivid" are those that are most logical and best remembered. For either to happen requires a high level of conscious processing in the brain.
You are most likely to wake up naturally during or after REM sleep and you feel better rested when you do so. This is because, during this time, your brain is already closest to being awake.
Although sleeping pills such as Melatonin are known to increase REM periods, they are actually working in the opposite way you'd expect. By causing deep sleep early in the night your pent up lack of REM causes an explosion of dreams at the end of the night, but only once the drug has worn off. This is known as the REM rebound effect.

If you think of things this way, you will realize that your most vivid dreams are actually occurring while you straddle the barrier between sleep and wakefulness. If you can manage to stay asleep while being functionally awake or vise versa, you will can increase the vividity and the chance of lucidity in all your dreams.

I hope this post has cleared up this misconception for everyone and helped further their lucid goals.

**nina** · 07-22-2011 07:00 AM

Hmm...thought everyone knew this. Guess not.

I find stimulants to be great for lucid dreaming. (ephedra, adderall, caffeine)

Also, melatonin does not really have such an effect as you describe. It helps people get to sleep by lowering core temperature and advancing sleep on cycle. But it doesn't have much, if any, effect on REM when taken before bed.

One last thing, Inception was a work of fiction. Nothing more.

**SystemsLock** · 07-22-2011 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by nina

Also, melatonin does not really have such an effect as you describe. It helps people get to sleep by lowering core temperature and advancing sleep on cycle. But it doesn't have much, if any, effect on REM when taken before bed.

Not to argue, but here is a direct quote from Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements by Thomas Yuschak

"Melatonin is a hormone that is released from the pineal gland and is thought to help us fall to sleep. Since Melatonin production is enhanced in darkness and decreased by light exposure it is often said that Melatonin has some control over our circadian rhythm and has the ability to reset our internal clocks. For this reason, Melatonin is sometimes used to reduce jet lag. Although Melatonin is synthesized from serotonin and 5-HTP is synthesized to serotonin, they both have a similar effect on sleep: both can help you fall to sleep and both can cause vivid dreams as the doses are wearing off."

"Melatonin has been shown clinically to increase the time spent in REM sleep in the morning hours (as the dose is wearing off). It is theorized that this phenomena is due to a REM rebound effect."

Although admittedly, its short half-life makes it a second choice to 5-HTP.

**nina** · 07-22-2011 07:24 AM

That is all completely speculation, if you're going to provide sources, provide something more substantial. Such as the clinical studies which have found that melatonin has a clear effect on REM. That's how misinformation gets spread...he said, she said. Well go look at the original source and see what exactly it says. No one bothers to do that.

For example.

Several studies suggest that melatonin induces sleep without suppressing REM (dream) sleep, as sedatives and other artificial sleep aids do.

Unlike sleep induced by benzodiazepine drugs, melatonin-induced sleep does not suppress Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep and slow-wave sleep-- and does not result in "hangover" feelings the next day [CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY AND THERAPEUTICS; Zhdanova,IV; 57(5):552-558 (1995)].

No REM suppression = no REM rebound

**jarrhead** · 07-22-2011 07:24 AM

The Melatonin bit was quite interesting. I always figured that Seratonin would help with more REM in the opposite way, but deprive you of sleep.

**SystemsLock** · 07-22-2011 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by nina

That is all completely speculation, if you're going to provide sources, provide something more substantial. Such as the clinical studies which have found that melatonin has a clear effect on REM. That's how misinformation gets spread...he said, she said. Well go look at the original source and see what exactly it says. No one bothers to do that.

For example.

Melatonin in Patients with Reduced REM Sleep Duration: Two Randomized Controlled Trials

Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy (D.K., R.M., C.M., A.T.), Charité Campus Mitte-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, 10117 Berlin, Germany; and Medcare Automation (F.B.), Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Recent data suggest that melatonin may influence human physiology, including the sleep-wake cycle, in a time-dependent manner via the body’s internal clock. Rapid-eye-movement (REM) sleep expression is strongly circadian modulated, and the impact of REM sleep on primary brain functions, metabolic processes, and immune system function has become increasingly clear over the past decade. In our study, we evaluated the effects of exogenous melatonin on disturbed REM sleep in humans.

The results of the study show that melatonin was significantly more effective than placebo: patients on melatonin experienced significant increases in REM sleep percentage

Melatonin did not shift circadian phase or suppress temperature but did increase REM sleep continuity and promote decline in rectal temperature during sleep

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/128

I can believe there is a whole journal devoted to endocrine care.

**jarrhead** · 07-22-2011 07:40 AM

...decline in rectal temperature? What were they doing to notice that?

**nina** · 07-22-2011 07:45 AM

Systemslock...I've read that before, the problem is...that it is only for people with sleep disorders. Can you find a study on healthy people with normal sleeping patterns?

Fourteen consecutive outpatients (five women, nine men; mean age, 50 yr) with unselected neuropsychiatric sleep disorders and reduced REM sleep duration (25% or more below age norm according to diagnostic polysomnography)...Our findings show that exogenous melatonin, when administered at the appropriate time, seems to normalize circadian variation in human physiology.

You really need to consider those studies in context. Melatonin has a normalizing effect for those people, but what about those without sleep disorders?

**SystemsLock** · 07-22-2011 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by nina

Systemslock...I've read that before, the problem is...that it is only for people with sleep disorders. Can you find a study on healthy people with normal sleeping patterns?

You really need to consider those studies in context. Melatonin has a normalizing effect for those people, but what about those without sleep disorders?

Did you even read the study you cited? Well I just did. Not only were the doses very low but the study wasn't even measuring REM sleep! It even suggests its results are consistent with another study (of higher doses 1-5mg) in which patients reported increased REM. Unfortunately I can't copy and paste out of that article but it's in the second paragraph of the last page. http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/static/pdf/870.pdf. If that was indeed the article you were trying to cite.

And now I must sleep.

**dakotahnok** · 07-22-2011 09:01 AM

I've never known for melatonin to help or hurt dreams. In my own test I will admit I had more vivid dreams. But it was very slight and most likely a placebo.

I do not think melatonin actually effects rem.

**faceonmars** · 07-24-2011 10:40 PM

I agree completely with you SystemsLock. There is an incredible amount of misinformation about the sleep/dream process on the Internet in general. I would suggest to anyone, really wanting to get scientific fact sorted out from Internet fiction, to research sleep/dreams on Wikipedia or in medical literature at their local library.

**That** · 07-24-2011 11:23 PM

I don't think you've fixed anything

**nina** · 07-25-2011 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by That

I don't think you've fixed anything

Indeed.

I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this thread. I am very much against the dissemination of misinformation, especially amongst DV forumites. But there are some subjects one shouldn't speak on without thorough research, as one risks spreading potentially more misinformation. But I didn't intend to start an argument, nor do I care to participate in one.