Thought on how we become lucid.

[siuol]

I often see that people are discouraged in how they have dreams of highly illogical events yet they are unable to realize they are dreaming. It is true that these things would not be normal, if we did not have similar experiences every night in our sleep. I looked at some of my personal experiences and speculated that we always know we are dreaming on a subconcious level, however we pay no attention to that conciously because our minds view dreaming as a normal occurence, and we are so absorbed in a dream like we would with a good movie or book. In my experience lucidity feels less like noticing an oddity, and more of noticing the thought that i am dreaming, and calling it into attention. I feel that achieving lucidity often depends not on how often the thought that "i am dreaming" comes up, but when you realize what that means (have you ever had a dream of being lucid but weren't actually lucid), and the more thought you put into that realization the better the quality of the lucid. The more lucids you have, the better you get at recognizing the idea and not just letting it pass by without impacting you. does anyone have any thoughts or anything that can support/disprove this? (i wrote about this a long time ago, however i read it and feel i did a horrible job of putting my thoughts into words so decided to write an improved version.)

[Puffin]

I become lucid the same way as you, siuol; out of all my lucids, I've only once noticed an unusual occurrence and called it into question. The others have just been random awareness, without any illogical or dream-like cue. I agree with your statements, because I've never done reality checks a whole lot or constantly asked myself if I was dreaming.

[Arra]

That seems accurate to me. I think that usually we know on a subconscious level that we're dreaming. I say usually and not always, because there have been times I'm pretty sure I genuinely didn't know I was dreaming on any level. It seems like with those deeply involved storyish dreams, I know on a subconscious level that I'm dreaming. But some of the other dreams (maybe NREM ones) I often take everything as seriously as I would in real life.

[siuol]

yea there is no way to tell if it happens all the time or not if it does happen. ive been thinking about this a little and it might be able to explain how the logic center turns on while we are still in a dream. if it is off we cannot think that something is strange therefore we must be dreaming, but if subconciously we know we are dreaming, and we pick up on that thought, the logic center may turn on since it is tricked into feeling awake now that we are in control of our actions. edit: i looked into it a little bit, but not much. i found an old thread about the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and it didn't look like anyone knew how it turned on for lucid dreaming in there. is it known already? if it is it makes what i said false, but if not i think it could be a possibility.

[Bobblehat]

Have you read this, siuol? http://www.dreamviews.com/f49/theory...d-read-109011/ This post is very interesting: http://www.dreamviews.com/f49/theory...ml#post1615516 (I'm hoping the second link links directly to one post - I'm assuming that's how it works.)

[siuol]

no i haven't read that, thank you for linking. i was thinking about some things related to this before reading your post. like i was wondering how any techniques such as affirmations would work if they did not function to turn the logic center on. and also when he said "i will know when i am dreaming and when i am not" made me think of something. what if instead of knowing you are asleep subconciously your subconcious is just picking up on the absence of being awake. it sounds the same, but when you are awake your mind is clear and confident, and you know you are awake. there is a feeling that you are awake that is not the same as the fuzzy dream feeling that dosen't question it. when this feeling is gone your mind may notice it. that could be why ADA works for many people, you are getting your mind used to that feeling of being awake and confident of it, which makes the contrast of it not being there all the more powerful when you do sleep. also, if lucid dreaming is as simple as not getting so involved in the dream plot so that you can pick up the feeling of dreaming/not being awake, the an affirmation such as "i will not go along with the dream" or something similar would work better than "i will lucid dream"

[Bobblehat]

I'm wondering if ADA works for the reasons we think it does. It probably does of course - but I like to question assumptions. There's a lack of continuity in dreams - in my dreams I switch from one place to the next randomly without noticing and if I have an objective - say, having a bath - I'll suddenly be in a bath full of water without noticing. I'm wondering if ADA adds continuity to dreams and it's the continuity that makes us more likely to reflect on ourselves and our thoughts and thus we are more likely to realise it's a dream. Also, (just food for thought) it's widely documented that affirmations work better if they are positively worded. So "I will not go along with the dream" would be "heard" by your brain as, "I will go along with the dream."

[siuol]

yea i know that negative affirmations arent effective but i couldnt really think of how to word it positivly, im really tired right now but can't sleep.

[Supurstamin]

(have you ever had a dream of being lucid but weren't actually lucid) Oh, man. This has happened 3 or 4 times since I last really tried to keep a DJ, do RCs, ect.(last December). And it's frustrating. I haven't actually had a true LD, only moments of lucidity, but those fake ones really build up false hope. Anyway, I think your theory is spot on .

[Robot_Butler]

This is a great point. Every time I randomly become lucid (like a DILD), it feels like I already knew I was dreaming. I just start to pay attention to that knowledge.

[siuol]

yea i have 3 types of DILD 1) something is so suprising i realize it is a dream (these are rare, and it is not so much something is odd but something that causes stress or shock) 2) i feel like i already knew i was dreaming and just payed that fact a little attention 3) i randomly break off from the dream after losing interest and instantly become lucid without a deffinant point where i realize i am dreaming (like i knew it was a dream but went along with it anyway, and then just stopped for some reason.) the 3rd feel really odd to me. its like non-lucid me decides to become lucid without any effort from myself. for example, i once shouted "lucid powers activate" or something like that, and became lucid even though before i said that i had no idea i was dreaming. for that to happen i would have needed to know subconciously i was dreaming.

[Texture]

Wow, I always love looking at the more deep discussions here, I don't really have an opinion on this now, as I have had too few lucids to tell, but I will think on it