WDILD? O.o

[eleggua]

As I know, there are two typer of LDs - DILD and WILD. DILD is a LD, when you realize that you're dreaming during a normal dream. WILD is when you get to a LD directly from waking state. I have read that it is about 2 minutes after awakening. So what about WILD in the evening, when you go to sleep? One guy told me, that if you DEILD, it goes like a usual WILD, but if you WILD in the evening, you fall asleep, wait for NREM 1, 2, 3 and 4, then go to REM still conscious and get directly to LD. O.o It is like WILD and DILD at the same time. Is he right? O.o

[Dark_Merlin]

I'm kind of confused about what you're asking. It's commonly known that attempting a WILD at the very beginning of the night is incredibly difficult. Zebrah has attempted this over 100 times and succeeded once, but even then the dream was unclear, unstable and collapsed quickly. If you do manage to do this, it would still technically be a WILD - a Wake Induced Lucid Dream. A DILD is still a dream where you BECOME lucid in the dream - without entering from a waking state. There's no real way to classify as a Wake-Dream-Induced-Lucid-Dream. Your friend is making up words, and needs to clarify what on earth he's talking about! I'm still confused

[eleggua]

I'm kind of confused about what you're asking. It's commonly known that attempting a WILD at the very beginning of the night is incredibly difficult. Zebrah has attempted this over 100 times and succeeded once, but even then the dream was unclear, unstable and collapsed quickly. If you do manage to do this, it would still technically be a WILD - a Wake Induced Lucid Dream. A DILD is still a dream where you BECOME lucid in the dream - without entering from a waking state. There's no real way to classify as a Wake-Dream-Induced-Lucid-Dream. Your friend is making up words, and needs to clarify what on earth he's talking about! I'm still confused Sure there is no such a thing like WDILD, but if while WILD you fall asleep and after that stay conscious during NREM sleep (for 1,5 hour!!!), you do not reach LD from waking sate (as I have read, WILD is only when you reach LD after 2 minutes from being awaken), but from sleep, and you also dream during NREM period, so it means that this one type of WILD is not a clear WILD. But I think it is impossible to stay conscious during NREM 3 and 4, and that while WILD you always reach LD directly from waking state, not after NREM. But I don't have any evidence, because I've never done this. ://

[Hukif]

Actually, since NREM also presents dreams, WILDing into NREM is just a WILD, nothing like a WDILD. Also, I have done the WILD first thing in the night several times and its the same as for REM dreams, after the first cycle it will be either a DEILD or a DILD.

[eleggua]

Actually, since NREM also presents dreams, WILDing into NREM is just a WILD, nothing like a WDILD. Also, I have done the WILD first thing in the night several times and its the same as for REM dreams, after the first cycle it will be either a DEILD or a DILD. Yes, having a LD in NREM phase is also WILD, because you go directly to LD. It is not WILD if you are LDing in REM phase after NREM 1, 2, 3 and 4. Actually having LDs in NREM shows that you don't need to wait for 1,5 hour NREM till REM to have a LD. But do you know where can I read about a possibility to have a LD in NREM? I think that WILD means awake -> lucid dream, not awake -> asleep with no dreams for 0,5 - 1,5 hour -> lucid dream. :// He doesn't think so. What about WILD after WBTB? It is also like WILD in the evening, isn't it?

[RealVirtuality]

Hang on here. Now I'm not Dr. Wild, but I know that when you first fall asleep in the evening, you generally don't dream right off the get-go, because you're not getting into a dreaming state. When you WBTB, you fall asleep right into REM sleep, which is a high dreaming activity sleep state. So yes, there's quite definately a difference. Now what I understand is that you're talking about actually falling asleep without dreaming but not losing one's consciousness and then remaining asleep but conscious until you reach REM sleep 1,5-2 hours later? That sounds... implausible.

[Hukif]

Lets see, it is believed that the NREM dreams are more "thought" dreams than the normal ones, so instead of being asleep with no dreams, you are actually asleep and dreaming a different kind of dream. Thats why I say that it is like a DEILD, because even if you don't notice it there is a "waking up and going instantly back into a dream". Also, don't think there is much if any info at all on LDing in NREM over the internet, since NREM dreams are different it is harder to attain lucidity and most people just go for the REM ones. WILD after WBTB is like a WILD in the evening yeah, since WBTB implies that people must go out of their dreamy state (Unlike DEILD) in order to have better chances at WILD, though there is a slight difference in which for WBTB you don't have to wake up fully or it will be hard to fall back asleep and for evening one is already fully awake.

[eleggua]

Now what I understand is that you're talking about actually falling asleep without dreaming but not losing one's consciousness and then remaining asleep but conscious until you reach REM sleep 1,5-2 hours later? That sounds... implausible. Yes, I'm talking about it. I don't believe in this too. :// Lets see, it is believed that the NREM dreams are more "thought" dreams than the normal ones, so instead of being asleep with no dreams, you are actually asleep and dreaming a different kind of dream. Thats why I say that it is like a DEILD, because even if you don't notice it there is a "waking up and going instantly back into a dream". A LD is not WILD if you are LDing in REM phase after NREM 1, 2, 3 and 4 without being awaken 2 minutes ago. If you are asleep, even conscious, LD doesn't match LaBerge's description of WILD. :// So there should be a type of LD that LaBerge didn't know about. O.o WILD after WBTB is like a WILD in the evening yeah, since WBTB implies that people must go out of their dreamy state (Unlike DEILD) in order to have better chances at WILD, though there is a slight difference in which for WBTB you don't have to wake up fully or it will be hard to fall back asleep and for evening one is already fully awake. WBTB is not just simple going out of dreamy state. It is a complete technique, that works without any other techniques (but you can add any techniques for DILD, like MILD, to improve chances of having DILD, not WILD). I actually think that it is related to biological rhythms, because simple nap at daytime doesn't work as good as WBTB... When you do WBTB+WILD, you don't use actual WBTB bonuses, because you don't try to have DILDs. So why it is still WBTB? Just because you get up? ://

[Darkmatters]

A LD is not WILD if you are LDing in REM phase after NREM 1, 2, 3 and 4 without being awaken 2 minutes ago. If you are asleep, even conscious, LD doesn't match LaBerge's description of WILD. :// So there should be a type of LD that LaBerge didn't know about. O.o I don't understand what you mean here. WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream - in other words, it means you go into the dream state directly form being awake. There's no 2 minute limit. It can be when you first go to bed (though that's rare and very difficult) or during a WBTB or DEILD. The only requirement for calling it a WILD is that you fall asleep while remaining conscious (or aware). WBTW means Wake Back To Bed - it simply means you wake up - preferably during a REM period and preferably late in your sleep cycle so it's a long REM period and you've already gotten plenty of restorative deep sleep, and then you go back to sleep while using some WILD technique to try to enter the dream state directly while still conscious (aware). By any chance is your friend into Buddhism or Yoga? Or something similar? Because it sounds like he's describing the Clear Light dream which is something they practice in order to attain enlightenment. They say it's possible, when you've mastered lucid dreaming, to fall asleep and go directly into the clear light state where you're aware and thinking, but have no dreams, and this state apparently can last through all phases of sleep - REM and nREM. If this isn;t what he's talking about then I apologize for adding confusion to the issue.

[eleggua]

I don't understand what you mean here. WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream - in other words, it means you go into the dream state directly form being awake. There's no 2 minute limit. It can be when you first go to bed (though that's rare and very difficult) or during a WBTB or DEILD. The only requirement for calling it a WILD is that you fall asleep while remaining conscious (or aware). WBTW means Wake Back To Bed - it simply means you wake up - preferably during a REM period and preferably late in your sleep cycle so it's a long REM period and you've already gotten plenty of restorative deep sleep, and then you go back to sleep while using some WILD technique to try to enter the dream state directly while still conscious (aware). By any chance is your friend into Buddhism or Yoga? Or something similar? Because it sounds like he's describing the Clear Light dream which is something they practice in order to attain enlightenment. They say it's possible, when you've mastered lucid dreaming, to fall asleep and go directly into the clear light state where you're aware and thinking, but have no dreams, and this state apparently can last through all phases of sleep - REM and nREM. If this isn;t what he's talking about then I apologize for adding confusion to the issue. "Directly from waking state" means awake -> LD, but not awake -> asleep consciously -> LD? He isn't into Buddhism, but actually he uses Buddhist things to prove his opinion. ) But do people who WILD know that they were asleep for a 0,5 - 1,5 hour? If so, why I never read about it? He says they just don't understand, because only body is asleep, not mind.

[silver2k]

Why do you have to have slept 0,5 - 1,5 hours before reaching a dream?

[Darkmatters]

I know, that's confusing as hell isn't it? Here's what I *THINK* eleggua is saying: Her friend says that you can enter into sleep - apparently even from the very beginning of the night when you first lay down to sleep - and be aware the entire time - in other words as you transition through the various stages of deep non-REM sleep, and so as you enter your first (and every subsequent) REM period you'll be entering them already aware. Is this right eleggua?

[eleggua]

I know, that's confusing as hell isn't it? Here's what I *THINK* eleggua is saying: Her friend says that you can enter into sleep - apparently even from the very beginning of the night when you first lay down to sleep - and be aware the entire time - in other words as you transition through the various stages of deep non-REM sleep, and so as you enter your first (and every subsequent) REM period you'll be entering them already aware. Is this right eleggua? Hm, can't find my post. I was sure I answered about a few hours ago. O.o Yes, this is right. Also he says that all WILDs are like this. You go directly to REM phase only while DEILD. Why do you have to have slept 0,5 - 1,5 hours before reaching a dream? He says LDs are only in REM phase, and you can't go to REM directly if you are normally awaken...

[Darkmatters]

silver2k: Why do you have to have slept 0,5 - 1,5 hours before reaching a dream? eleggua: He says LDs are only in REM phase, and you can't go to REM directly if you are normally awaken... Ah ok! Now I think I get it! So he's saying that WBTB won't get you directly into REM? I suppose that depends on when you wake up in your REM cycle. According to all the data I've seen the cycle continues even when you're awake for a while (for several hours) so that if you wake up after 4 hours of sleep (not in REM yet) stay up for half an hour and then go back to sleep you should hit that 4 1/2 hour REM cycle. I don't know though - it' all pretty complicated when you try to think about it like this. But it seems to me a lot of people have had a lot of WILDs during WBTB and have gone directly into a lucid dream when they do. It feels very different from a DILD - you can see the dream forming around you as you fall asleep and you're aware from the very beginning, no lost time during the transition. Is this person an experienced lucid dreamer himself?

[eleggua]

Ah ok! Now I think I get it! So he's saying that WBTB won't get you directly into REM? I suppose that depends on when you wake up in your REM cycle. According to all the data I've seen the cycle continues even when you're awake for a while (for several hours) so that if you wake up after 4 hours of sleep (not in REM yet) stay up for half an hour and then go back to sleep you should hit that 4 1/2 hour REM cycle. I don't know though - it' all pretty complicated when you try to think about it like this. But it seems to me a lot of people have had a lot of WILDs during WBTB and have gone directly into a lucid dream when they do. It feels very different from a DILD - you can see the dream forming around you as you fall asleep and you're aware from the very beginning, no lost time during the transition. Is this person an experienced lucid dreamer himself? I actually have never seen data that shows any EEG of WILD, except DEILD. So I can't prove that it is all mistake... He says people who think that they have gone directly into LD just don't understand that they were asleep, because they were conscious and thought they are just lying and relaxing, watching hypnagogic hallucinations... He is not a very experienced lucid dreamer, but he is doing a doctorate about LD... But it is about LD applications. Anyway he seems to know what he is talking about. So I can't just say "Sorry, I don't believe you" just because it sounds weird. I still don't agree with him because he didn't give me any evidence like EEG, etc. I also can't prove my opinion in this way.

[Hukif]

Ah I see the problem now, REM as well as NREM dreams can be lucid dreams. Seriously... how did such a confusion arise in the first place? So yeah, lucid dreams don't only happen on REM phase, they can happen in any dream phase, this of course includes NREM. And to break it down further, Laberge description of a LD? He didn't discover LDing, he just showed proof to the world by using REM as a means of dream/waking comunication, so of course his preferred method was DILD and REM over WILD or NREM, thats all there is to it. Now, WBTB is NOT a technique, essentially there are only two techniques, which are DILD and WILD, WBTB only helps enhance the chances of having one or the other as does all the other "techniques" out there.

[Dark_Merlin]

Holy crap this thread is confusing!