MISHLOVE: And I guess it's looking to coincidences as signs along the way that defines this relationship with what you've defined as ECCO.
LILLY: Right, the Earth Coincidence Control. It's coincidence control that they do, and they say, "We control the long-term coincidences; you control the short-term ones. And when you find out how we do the long-term ones, you no longer have to remain on earth; you don't have to return there."
MISHLOVE: It seems to me as if your concept of ECCO is a way of modeling a mechanism behind what Jung has defined as synchronocity.
LILLY: That's right. Jung defined synchronicity only in a good fashion in his introduction to the I Ching, and he uses the term coincidences.
MISHLOVE: Meaningful coincidences.
LILLY: But of course the coincidences are in your own construction, your own language construction of the events. So that's all a fake too. As I say at the beginning of my workshops, "Everything I say here is a lie -- bullshit, in other words -- because anything that you put in words is not experience, is not the experiment. It's a representation -- a misrepresentation."
MISHLOVE: And here we are misrepresenting to each other in order that we can learn from these lies.
LILLY: Right. Now if you use language injunctively, as a set of directions, then it's not as bad as it is otherwise.
MISHLOVE: So in other words, for example, when you talk about ECCO, when you talk about perhaps going into an inner reality using sensory isolation, which is one of the other technologies in which you pioneered --
LILLY: In 1954, I invented it.
MISHLOVE: Or using a number of different molecules which can be used for this purpose, or mystical disciplines -- when one enters into these realities, each set of instructions carries with it usually a belief system.
LILLY: Right.
MISHLOVE: And basically what you're saying is that all of these belief systems are wrong, but one needs to entertain or to hold the belief system in order to follow through the instructions.
LILLY: That's right. Our brains are so small we have to do this.
MISHLOVE: So the belief system itself becomes a tool that we work with, and then eventually we have to let go of.
LILLY: Right.
MISHLOVE: And using these belief systems, you've been able to in effect map out the inner terrain of inner space in a manner which has as rich and varied flora and fauna and geography as one would find on any continent, perhaps richer.
wow, having a rest, more later.
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