Thread: Who or what should we blame for the lack of lucidity ?

Originally Posted by Zoth

Can we kidnap Sageous and put him under a fmri and analyze the level of activity in his precuneus during REM when compared to control? Pretty please ?

It wouldn't work -- I'm, perhaps ironically, a terrible sleeper, and would never be able to get to sleep, let alone stay asleep, in a lab environment (much less while being subject to an fMRI scan)!

"By the way Sageous, I'll explain why my perspective in this thread is so much about lucid dreaming induction, and not the rest: it's because for the nature of the topic VagalTone made, induction is extremely relevant.

Understood. I was perhaps inharmonious with the thread by insisting that, though relevant (and important), induction isn't the only priority in successful LD'ing... but you already knew that, obviously!

Wouldn't you agree that 10 low-level lucids would be more helpful to a beginner than 2 high-level lucids? What you want is quantity in order to have more chances to eventually improve quality right?

Actually, no, I would not agree. I think if a beginner had just one high-level lucid, and also possessed the requisite mental wherewithal to have that LD in the first place, that single LD would be more valuable, both as an experience and as a primer for future lucidity, than any ten "Ah-ha!" moments. Or any 20, or 30. The experience of a high-end lucid is simply that valuable.

Quantity, especially in this department, does not necessarily guarantee eventual quality. I've known plenty of dreamers who have had many dozens of low-level LD's, and have never really gotten to the point where they could truly explore their dreams as themselves. Why? Because they were not interested in diving into the deep end of their dreaming pool -- the fact of induction was enough for them, so working on things like self-awareness and memory did not matter. Many of those people, BTW, eventually got bored with LD'ing; I wonder why?

- induce low-level lucidity and go from there. Wouldn't you agree that way more people would lucid dream if they could experience the effects of low self-awareness skills in a series of lucids that would come by much more frequently in the first weeks/months?

Sure. This would indeed be the way to go: baby steps, as it were, to learn the art of Ld'ing. But they must be considered as baby-steps toward greater discovery in the future, as their self-awareness improves, rather than assuming that, since they briefly got "there," then they've mastered the art. That may be all I was trying to say.

I got the luck of having loads of lucid dreams in the first weeks that I tried, but many people practice for months, and you practiced for years.

I did practice for years, yes, but I also wasted many good years -- when I was still young and strong -- locked in a smug cage of "success" built around the naive conclusion I made that simply becoming aware I was dreaming was enough (I too had loads of low-level LD's in the beginning; they were a lot of fun, but I had no idea what I was missing). I guess my stubborn streak on this subject stems from that experience, and the fact that I'd like to do what I can to help new dreamers avoid the years of wheel-spinning that can accompany a disinterest in learning more (fueled by the cool stuff you can do in low-level LD's, of course), or, perhaps, an assumption that just mastering a technique that gets you to notice you are dreaming is enough.

These questions actually bring me around to a point I may have tried to make earlier: These barriers to getting lucid could well be self-inflicted, because so much of the information available about LD'ing comes in the form of time-saving techniques that get you there, but little to no information -- or assistance -- in preparing your mind, your self, to be there when you arrive.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Actually, no, I would not agree. I think if a beginner had just one high-level lucid, and also possessed the requisite mental wherewithal to have that LD in the first place, that single LD would be more valuable, both as an experience and as a primer for future lucidity, than any ten "Ah-ha!" moments. Or any 20, or 30. The experience of a high-end lucid is simply that valuable.

I can attest to this. My first lucid dream was a brief unstable WILD, but my first DILD was a spontaneous, extremely vivid and conscious dream that it took me years to again equal. It inspired me (and still does) to an extent that is difficult to explain. Obsession followed.