Thread: Is lucid dreaming satanic?

MoonageDaydream--
Thanks for your thoughtful post. Not sure how to respond to it.

All I can tell you is what is in the original SUNDS post. That...thing, that awful soul stealing thing that freezes men's chests, that makes it impossible to breathe, that petrifies with terror with the image of Medusa on Athena's shield, came from a church. Came from from a church where people say much the same things you are saying about love, "peace" and yet what I experienced was the opposite of that.

So, yes, when I broke from that paralysis and pursued the Old hag, what the SUNDS phenomenon is called in Western cultures and found where it had been sent from I killed it. I would say that my doing so was out of love -- not for those who sent the thing to defeat an enemy an "unbeliever" but for those who wish to be free, who wish to have a choice, who wish to believe that one can be angry and act out of anger for love.

To liberate love from "peace" that is false.

Hummer

Nailer--
You've responded faster than I can think. I'll get back to you.

Thanks

Hummer

Originally Posted by Hummer

Nailer--
You've responded faster than I can think. I'll get back to you.

Thanks

Hummer

Are you familiar with Sleep Paralysis?
Check out:
Why NOT to be Scared of Sleep Paralysis

Also See:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-...ralysis-demon/

Nailer--
I think there is sp and sp. I am of the opinion you can run into what I might describe as Athena's shield with the head of Medusa on it in sleep, that causes not only sp but "turned to stone," so to speak. This condition is used to protect certain areas of sleep, dreaming, etc. To frighten you out, to signal "NO TRESPASSING!"

I am familiar with the states described in the video including various kinds of terrifically convincing movement. They are movement of a sort. Can be enjoyed.

I don't think any of this has much to do with "thinking positive thoughts," which, frankly, sounds a little too much like Peter Pan. That's how you "fly."

Thanks.

Hummer

Nailer--
I though I responded to this, but maybe didn't. Who or what is responsible for this "construct?" Is it used, as in the film, as a malevolent control device? How is it "the population" comes to have this construct in their brains? What do you see...though this construct, presuming you do see through it as a reality shell or screen?

Hummer

I like your theories, Hummer. Whether or not they are where we should be focusing our energies, I don't know, but it's very interesting.

What happened after your encounter? Have you had any SP episodes since then?

Well - I still hope, Sensei will chime in here and deliver his promised preaching.
Pertaining to the general question and my first response post to him - not about the whole thread of course!
Even more interesting would still be, to show this thread to his bible-circle buddies and to his teachers, from whom he gets his formal education to become a preacher of a biblical literalist Christianity subgroup of - yeah - how is your church called, Sensei?
That would be easy to provide us with! Not to contact them, of course - just to read up on it.

Originally Posted by Hummer

I do believe there was a "flood," which created the unconscious as a place where "God," do you see that is in quotes? could create black sites in order to do just about what ever "He" wanted to do.
Including the use of dreamers as slaves as per Joseph in the book of Genesis. "Energy pods."

Lucid dreaming that cuts away that past is, for me, an escape up from snuffed.
In my opinion it doesn't work.

Hummer

I will rephrase that in order to see, if I get it:

The flood was an event, which played out inside of the human mind.
There is a malignant being, usually referred to as the Christian God, who caused the event, in order to split "the unconscious" away from the formerly completely conscious human mind. (good you got terminology right, btw., and don't say "subconsciousness" a la Freud).

And so he can then set up hidden mechanisms in our unconscious, which lead us to follow his every whim and command.
What you now propose is that lucid dreamers should go into their unconscious to fight off god and his black pages down there.
All else would just be ignorant "steak-LDing".

Did I basically understand, what you meant? Where have you got that from - your own idea?

Then comes a reference to Joseph.
Since you said, you studied Genesis intensely, it shouldn't be hard - please give me the exact location, so I can look it up.

Originally Posted by Hummer

Not that this is relevant to all these NOs! here but there are a whole lot of ways in which Satan, Lucifer, can be seen as the hero or "whistle blower" on a system in which the CEO of the Heavenly Company has a secret covenant with the Dark Side.

I am much more of that opinion, which, in the probably limited range of this discussion, is not particularly relevant. But, it, this topic, brings up a whole lot of energy.

So for you Satan is the good one in the game.

Should we then not maybe embrace possession, in order to have the helpful ex-angel Lucifer on our side?
He could assist us in finding and erasing God's evil schemes from our minds! Why don't your recommend Satanism to us explicitly?

Originally Posted by Hummer

I think there is sp and sp. I am of the opinion you can run into what I might describe as Athena's shield with the head of Medusa on it in sleep, that causes not only sp but "turned to stone," so to speak. This condition is used to protect certain areas of sleep, dreaming, etc. To frighten you out, to signal "NO TRESPASSING!"

Sleep paralysis (SP) is indeed a security measure pertaining to sleep and dreams.
It is there, so that you don't act out your dreams and thrash about in bed - or worse - fall out of a tree and get eaten.

If a religious person with certain pre-formed schemata of devils and daemons experiences what is called SP together with the typical tendency to hallucinate at the transition between waking and sleep - she will hallucinate, what she expects to be a paranormal terror in her belief system. Easiest way to come to a personal experience of that sort.
This is illusionary, though - see spoiler.

So there must actually be people, who get scared away from lucid dreaming (LDing) because of personal experiences with SP and these hallucinations, which seem to indicate, that it really is something Satanic, or at least highly supernaturally dangerous for life and soul and whatnot.

I got scared away for 10 years in my youth, after having gotten lucid by following the sorcery-fairy-tales of Castaneda, and thinking, I really enter other realms full of supernatural dangers. Somewhere only an advanced witch should visit.
Shame - I had to become an agnostic atheist to finally start over again.
One reason, why I am up against superstitions around LDing.

Spoiler for bit more on REM Atonia=Sleep Paralysis, Hallucinations:

Sleep paralysis (SP) is the same as REM-Atonia (linked through).
It is a paralysis of the muscles from neck down, while you are in the REM-phase of sleep, the phase, where you usually dream.
Usually you are not consciously aware of that - if you are - you are prone to hallucinations.

REM = rapid eye movement - when the eyes move rapidly - that corresponds to eye-movements in the dream.
They are not paralysed - moving them is not dangerous, after all.

If you read around a bit on the forum, you will find, that it is common to experience hallucinations in the transition from waking to sleep in both directions. It is known, that hallucinations tend to follow your emotional mind-set - if you are frightened - they will be horrible.
If you are not - they can appear for example as a beautiful mandala hanging in mid-air (had that - very nice).

From your thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...-syndrome.html

Originally Posted by Steph, who has too much time, from next door

...Classically with something jumping on the chest - doesn't have to be.
Old Hag is a traditional Russian myth connected to the phenomenon - Christians used/use to call it Incubus, Germans often call it "Alp"...

Really many, many people experience SP at least once in their lives - seems LDing activities can lead to it - like forcefully waking yourself up, that's when I had SP.

Look:
Sleep paralysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What Makes Sleep Paralysis Scary | Sleep Disorders | LiveScience

Different cultures have different superstitions around it - but it's a neurological, a medical phenomenon.
The more you are afraid - the more likely to hallucinate something nasty - and vice versa.

Here is how DV tries to get it out of people's minds that they need SP in order to LD, which they don't:
http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...mystified.html


A historical impression - these days alien abductions are all the rage, I read:

Spoiler for Explaining the movie Matrix to Hummer:

Originally Posted by Hummer

I do see the Matrix bandied about a whole lot here and yet I see scant attention paid to the actual script or plot of the film and almost none to the fact the Neo's "out of Matrix" life is really tough, not wonderful "lucid dreaming."

This is because he left the pod and cables, which enabled the shared simulation of the Matrix to get into his brain.
Outside he is an awake normal human in an apocalyptic world

Originally Posted by Hummer

Nailer--
I though I responded to this, but maybe didn't. Who or what is responsible for this "construct?" Is it used, as in the film, as a malevolent control device? How is it "the population" comes to have this construct in their brains? What do you see...though this construct, presuming you do see through it as a reality shell or screen?

Hummer

I recommend re-watching the movie.
Responsible for that construct are intelligent machines gone bad.
They use cables to insert the false experiences, the dream, the whole supposed reality, into the brains of humans.
That because they can only milk humans' energy, if these humans survive and are subjectively happy.
Hence the simulation.
It is plain science fiction with the motive AI (Artificial Intelligence) versus humanity - there is not one moment, where something supernatural is implied at all.
All the magical feats being performed are taking place only within the simulation, which Neo and his buddies learn to directly manipulate with their minds, while it is being fed into their minds by the machines.

NO real life magic.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Morpheus explains that in the 21st century, humans waged a war against intelligent machines they had created. When humans blocked the machines' access to solar energy, the machines instead turned to harvesting the humans' bioelectricity as a substitute power source, while keeping them trapped in "the Matrix", a shared simulation of the world as it was in 1999, in which Neo has been living since birth. Morpheus and his crew belong to a group of rebels who hack into the Matrix and "unplug" enslaved humans, recruiting them as rebels.

StephL--
You ask so many questions it is not possible to respond to them all.

No, there is not a "malignant being" as you call it which is why I put it in quotes. There is a program that is used and worshipped by more than a billion people, more than half the planet. This program, if you take the time to read the story of Joseph delivers dreaming and all meanings of dreams to said deity (program) in quotes. Much of that book, the Bible is about dreaming and control over it -- in my opinion. I am not going to provide you with chapter and verse -- if you are interested just type in Joseph on Google.

My experience with the Flood is personal, not a theory, not something I can refer to a site for you. My experience of black sites is personal, not something I can provide chapter and verse on -- I mean particular dreams, the red pill variety I am not going to share with you in this hostile context, thanks.

You are responding to questions I asked of Nailer, I do not know why. I would prefer you didn't do so, makes thing confusing.

Thanks, I don't need to watch the Matrix again. As I said somewhere else it isn't about dreaming, it's about computers, "machines gone bad" as you say.

It seems to me you are so...frightened because you might have to give up some of the "magic" the machines, like the machines of the body, because it just might be there is a "program" out there that needs to be identified, fought. There might be a shield of Athena protecting all kinds of powers and secrets that can turn you to stone for trespassing. It's much easier to call that "sp" and get on with the...videogame of dreaming which, from what I understand has no consequences in the real world.

Not a kind of dreaming I want, thanks--

Hummer

MoonageDaydream--
Thank you for the reply. What happened after the encounter is I had to deal with an institution that says "love" out of its conscious mouth while having a secret covenant with the Dark Side at the same time in order to force those deviant souls still "in the dark" into the fold.

This has entailed an enormous amount of energy as you might imagine and an extravagant amount of conscious or lucid dream work to deal with. Some of which went to helping to raise the Catholic sex abuse scandal to the surface though that is but the first layer of the sexual abuse of the Garden the Church commits.

Such work has taken nearly all of my time and energy since.

Thanks.

Hummer

Sorry Hummer.
I'll keep off you now.
I just hope you don't scare people off LDing or even sleep.

@StephL mostly

I am not going to be doing any quoting, but this should answer all your questions. It should also (hopefully) make Christianity seem a little more clear to you.

Why Christians Cannot Be Possessed?

This one is quite easy actually. After reading your posts I don't see a single mention of Him. So we talk a lot as Christians about the “Big man upstairs” and the “Messiah”, but there is the third member of the trinity... The Holy Spirit. As soon as someone asks for Him, He comes in a possesses you.

The Bible is pretty clear about humans having free will (If you ask me) so the only way to lose free will is to give it to something. You cannot have it stolen. I give my will to God, He gives me The Holy Spirit as a guide to His Will. Can't have God with sin, so Jesus has taken all of my sins, can't have God with sin, so no other entity could be inside of me either.

What Does The Bible Mean When It Says “Witchcraft”?

Biggest rule of literal interpretations of the Bible:
What did the original author mean when he sent it to the original recipient?

Ok so you take something like Psalms. Songs to God. I can take that as just that, maybe some “epic foreshadowing, but I can't take it away from that context. John, written to everyone that you might believe. Etc.

So we look at “witchcraft” as it is mentioned in the Bible and what the original author meant, and we come up with 3 things:

People who prophesied from other gods about the future
People who tried to speak to the dead
Pharmakeia (most common) (People who tried to speak to spirits with herbs and plants... you know... Pharmacy? )

Not really Lding specific. So this moves Lding into another category:
Food Sacrificed before idols.

Before I get into that, I am going to talk a little about sin, since ya'll seem to be mislead about that as well.

Sin Defined

James 4:17 actually gives you a straight up definition of sin
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

So wait! If you don't know it is wrong, then you aren't accountable for it? Is this the only verse in The Bible that says this? What about the people in Africa! Or people in Europe and Asia before Jesus died that don't know anything about the Bible?
Romans 5:13
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

So sin isn't just doing wrong. It is knowing wrong and doing it. Let's take this to the beginning and see if it works.

God makes Adam and Eve and only one rule:
Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.
So they only have one law to uphold. Sin in this world can only be done by breaking that one law. They broke it, but the tree had an after effect, it let them know of the other sins around, and they would now be held accountable to this.

Why is there Judgement?

So we take things back to the very beginning, and why did God make judgment for sin? Why not just let it slide? God makes things in an orderly fashion. Let's move this over to Lding terms.

You create a universe in your head. You make rules, you say E = MC^3 instead of squared because you are the boss. Now there is tons and tons of rules to make (you know the scientific laws) and one of them is called “The law of reaping and sewing” You reap what you sew. So if you choose to sew carrots, voila, you get carrots. However there are three rules inside the rule of reaping and sewing:
You reap:
what you sew
more than you sew
later than you sew

think about it... ok good. Hosea says that if you sew to the wind, you will reap the whirlwind. Haha.

Ok, so God has these rules, and one of them is this “if you break the law you will be judged by the law” He created the one law at the beginning “don't eat of the tree” and they ate, so they sewed to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin and they reaped more knowledge of good and evil and sin.

So sin entered the world, and death. Now God's rules for being with Him are simple “nothing that is against Him can reside with Him” Frick. That is everyone now that sin is in the world. Being a just God, he has to uphold the justice of the land that he set in place at the beginning. So people die, and after death, judgment. God always has a plan though because he is in past, present, and future. So what was His plan? He had another rule that was made, a loophole if you will. Blood can cover sin. Problem is, is that it has to be pure blood of someone undefiled by sin. Many will say here that the blood of bulls and goats covered the sin of people in the Old Testament. Not true. Hebrews 10:4

So Jesus comes to take away the sins of all, because no matter what any man wanted before, he wouldn't be able to get to God. Jesus takes away sin in the past, present, and future, so all you have to do now is believe in him. John 3:16, or a better translation would be trust. It is not works, and I will explain why.

What do you need to do to be any religion? The first thing is to actually put your trust in it, and then you have a list of duties to do in order to get your sins removed. As a Christian is to simply trust in Jesus. Simple? I hope so.

Verses that people leave out too much are the verses right after John 3:16 (this is verses 17-21)
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

You mention God judging our every thought and judging Christians, there is no judgment for those in Christ. All my sins are gone.

A true Christian would want to please God, and that if we truly believe, we will have a desire to change to be more like God. James says “Faith without works is dead”, giving the idea that if someone truly trusts in God, he will be changed, and want to please God.

Meat sacrificed before idols

In Romans, we are told of meat sacrificed before idols. It is a type of meat that was sacrificed to gods in a city and then it was put on the market as a way to please their god. Some Christians said “there is no way I am going to eat something that was sacrificed to an idol”, and some said “It doesn't matter if they set it aside for their gods, I can eat it.” Paul tells them that they can do whichever they want, to some that it was a way that they left in the past it might be hard for them to do without wanting to revert to their old life, to others, it was just meat. So he said to make sure that you don't do something to make someone stumble, but all in all, there is nothing wrong with it. So anything not mentioned directly in the Bible not to do (Fornication, stealing, lying, etc) is free game, it is for man to decide between him and God.

You ask me what my teachers would say.

My head pastor trusts my judgment and doesn't care.

Ok, so continuing with the story (I get sidetracked). We needed a sacrifice of pure undefiled blood. We got it, and it was Jesus. He laid down his life so that there would be no judgment for those in Christ.

A little bit of a summary:
God makes the world and gives man dominion of it.
Man screws up.
God fixes it.

You want to know why God would send you to hell, but what I think is interesting is that you hate God and want nothing to do with him, so He is just giving you what you want, an eternity away from Him, and all things good (all good things come from God).

Hope this clears things up for you! Sorry for all the delay. It is a lot for me to get to the computer, I actually really need to take a nap right now. If I didn't answer some questions, then I apologize.

I am sorry that you have so much hatred towards Christianity, I feel like a Christian wronged you in the past, we are not supposed to be judgmental, but extending love to all so that people might see our love and glorify God in heaven. Sometimes Christians don't act like they should, or they act out from bad teaching and misinformation. The most common is obviously how many Christians treat gays and lesbians. While a Christian should not do something that displeases God (lev 18:22), that does not mean that we should hold non Christians to the standards God holds us to. We are to extend grace and then show people how to achieve peace. Not the other way around. I love you and hope that you understand Christians a little more.

Just Remembered!
Having sex with my wife in a dream like masturbation? Maybe. The Bible doesn't really straight up say anything about masturbation, but it does say that "whoever looks at a woman and lusts after her is an adulterer at heart" which is the main reason people (other than catholics) are anti-masturbation. So...
1) I don't think that I can "lust" after my wife, since she is the person I should be imagining sex with
2) I still don't like the idea of masturbating whether to the idea of my wife or otherwise, but I think you might notice a trend in my dream journal of leaving out details (especially my thoughts) and thinking that DCs are real people. So I often think that I am actually having "dream sex" with my wife, because I am confused and less aware. Sometimes I simply cannot resist my dream wife because she is freaking sexy. I don't really have any guilt about it, though I do try to avoid it because dream time is precious and I can "Get some" in waking more than I LD.

More on the subject of what we think. What a man thinks in his heart (mind) so is he.

StephL
I thought we were going interesting directions with the Scientology discussion -- that was you wasn't it?

And I think there are interesting directions we could pursue. I felt overwhelmed by your last response.

Something that can be done by lucid or conscious dreamers involving "Scientology" is to audit something for accuracy or engrams, what have you. This entire discussion on is LD dreaming satanic? could be "audited" in that fashion without any fear of Scientology as a thing, Religion, which it is not. It is, in my opinion, an interesting addition to tool chest of a lucid or conscious dreamer.

I am very impressed with your use of the tool chest here to respond with. All I can do is type. Maybe you can help me out a bit?

What do you mean by "spoiler?"

Hummer

Huge Thank You Sensei - I will come back to it in a while - also to your post, Hummer.

Just shortly - a spoiler is a way to post something, without the wall of text being instantly visible - like for off-topic things, not to overly disturb the flow of the thread - I should use it more often, actually.
Once you click on the field saying "show" - you get to see the text.

The name 'spoiler' comes from situations like the following:
If you want to post something about a movie for example, but you want to make sure, that you don't spoil the movie for a person yet to watch it - you hide the respective text with such a thing. It's an option under "Go Advanced" - looks like a double square.
So if this person simply doesn't click on it - she can watch the movie, without knowing everything up front.
By the way - if you wanted to multi-quote - you would click on the little '+' sign next to the "Reply With..".
And then the blue oval to the left under the last post - "+ Reply to Thread" it says.

I find a lot in your post quite bizarre Sensei, to be honest - but for now I'd like to tackle the matter of witchcraft on the basis of the three points, you provided me with. I think, my post suffices - I could go hunt bible quotes myself, though, and ask you how you come to know, how an author has meant something.
After more than a thousand years and translations and Catholic councils deciding around the 5th century, what goes in the bible and what not. And also in general - these people thought completely differently from us. Don't you notice that in the language? Right - sorry - witchcraft:

Originally Posted by Sensei

So we look at “witchcraft” as it is mentioned in the Bible and what the original author meant, and we come up with 3 things:

People who prophesied from other gods about the future
People who tried to speak to the dead
Pharmakeia (most common) (People who tried to speak to spirits with herbs and plants... you know... Pharmacy? )

Not really Lding specific. So this moves Lding into another category:
Food Sacrificed before idols.

Let’s see - is there a connection between LDing and these points – are they maybe intimately entwined with LDing?
It is implied that such feats are indeed possible - it wouldn't have to be forbidden, if it wouldn't work.
Lucid dreaming clearly is, and has been for ages, and all over the globe, the practice to do just exactly the things, you mentioned above.

If I wanted to contact spirits and the dead and have precognition - I would use LDing in the same way, that famous witches and sorcerers like Castaneda before me have.

Did you hear of Helena Blavatski?
She coined the term astral projection (AP) - that was her occult practice among other things like seances - a very famous self-declared witch.
The very concept and practice of WILD has her signature all over it, if you check the internet.
There are so many more – just look into “Beyond Dreaming” on here for examples.

Coincidence??
I think not – and I could go on and on.

Again:
Modern occult practice and old pagan religions traditionally see Lucid Dreaming as a means, even the actual portal to:

* come to precognitive experiences (how can you be sure, who provides them?)
* to talk to dead relatives
* to speak with spirits
* And - many people use some sort of supplement, including herbs, including ones traditionally used in religious ceremonies of "paganism".

There is serious science being done on connections between dreams, and especially lucid ones, and the substance DMT - which is the main ingredient of Ayahuasca. And consuming this herbal mix is allowed in certain parts of South America - guess for whom?
For somebody belonging to the Ayahuasca religion - however it's really called.
Taking it, is their religious practice, and scientists have reasons to believe the experience is of a kind with LDing.
So there.

I would be really careful with LDing, if my soul depended on you, Sensei, understanding the criteria better than me!
Especially since you - wisely - don't tell your professor about it - you are not yet fully ordained, are you?
I don't want to spoil LDing for you - I hope I can't.
What do you think?

Spoiler for For Hummer and whomever ..:

OBE is the neutral term and it means Out of Body Experience - however brought about causally. astral projection (AP) is the mystical term. WILD is Wake Initiated LD - going from awake directly into the LD, which tends to come in a way, that the dreamer dreams a replica of his sleeping room, for one, and it can be experienced, as if you would leave a "physical body" with your dream-body, but both bodies are dreamt up.
Once you think Blavatzki and AP - you can dream yourself a silver chord as well.
More common is simply starting the WILD with dreaming of getting up from bed with your usual dream-body - not having to "separate" and no chords. You get what you expect - and in WILD, you expect to be in your room and awake and lying in bed, still. I hope, I make sense here.

Disclaimer: I do not believe in gods nor witchcraft, just to make sure

What is the church you belong to called, Sensei - something evangelical and fundamentalist, I would guess?

I wonder - must not the church be the ultimate authority concerning all things to do with soul and mind?
So why don't they teach lucid dreaming - why don't they even know about it?
Or do they??
If so, why not ask? If not, how come they are ignorant of such a monumentally different state of being?
Especially while other religions do deal with it and at times centrally.

Either they don't know overly much after all - or they consider it witchcraft and keep knowledge under the lid.
Which shall it be?