Thread: Why DC's deny that they're from my imagination?

I can share with you one story that baffles me to this day. Forgive me that I don't remember the book.

This man suddenly gained lucidity, and became aware he was in this hotel room, sitting on a bed with this woman, and she was smoking. I don't remember the specific dialogue. But he was basically saying that none of what was happening--including the woman--were real. She claimed otherwise, but he didn't believe her. Now, this last line I do remember. "I'll show you who's real!" She said this quite angrily, and jabbed the cigarette into the man's wrist. When he awoke, he found a burn mark in that exact same spot.

The injury can be a strange case of mind over matter. Nonetheless, it's a very intriguing example of a character who swore she was real.

I've only had one case of your example. It was a shadowy figure but had a male voice. We had about two sentences of dialogue, the first I don't remember. The second was, "ME: Why am I dreaming this?" "DC: How should I know? You're the one who's dreaming." Although, I wasn't "lucid." Despite my actions, my mind wasn't completely aware of what was happening.

For some reason, some characters have an awareness of their surroundings, while others do not. When I become lucid again, I hope to possibly learn these reasons.

Originally Posted by Screen

I can share with you one story that baffles me to this day. Forgive me that I don't remember the book.

This man suddenly gained lucidity, and became aware he was in this hotel room, sitting on a bed with this woman, and she was smoking. I don't remember the specific dialogue. But he was basically saying that none of what was happening--including the woman--were real. She claimed otherwise, but he didn't believe her. Now, this last line I do remember. "I'll show you who's real!" She said this quite angrily, and jabbed the cigarette into the man's wrist. When he awoke, he found a burn mark in that exact same spot.

The injury can be a strange case of mind over matter. Nonetheless, it's a very intriguing example of a character who swore she was real.

I've only had one case of your example. It was a shadowy figure but had a male voice. We had about two sentences of dialogue, the first I don't remember. The second was, "ME: Why am I dreaming this?" "DC: How should I know? You're the one who's dreaming." Although, I wasn't "lucid." Despite my actions, my mind wasn't completely aware of what was happening.

For some reason, some characters have an awareness of their surroundings, while others do not. When I become lucid again, I hope to possibly learn these reasons.

Ah, I believe this is from Charlie Morley's "Mindfulness of Dream and Sleep." I could be wrong, but I know I have read the same book recently.

Originally Posted by StephL

It touches on the tulpa-topic - reading about these is what made me first consider to ascribe something like sentience to constructs, which run on my "hardware".
I believe, that dream-sharing is completely impossible - but as usual in such cases - one can't prove a negative of that sort scientifically.
It's just that there is no objective evidence for the phenomenon at all, and it would violate diverse principles of nature, that we do understand very well, meanwhile. A lot speaks against it, and in my eyes there is a total lack of any positive evidence, worth considering - meaning produced under controlled conditions and - very important - repeatable by independent scientists all over the world.

I would actually disagree with you, StephL; I don't think we understand very much about nature at all, and perhaps even less about our own minds. Empirical science has been proven flawed--in particular regards to its reliance on logic and perception--mental constructs both--in order to "explain" perceived mental phenomenon. To me that is the needle trying to sew its own eye shut.

I realize I do not speak for everyone. However, there has been so much anecdotal evidence concerning phenomena like telepathy and precognition that it seems hasty to suggest that sharing dreams is impossible. We barely know what is possible. At the beginning of the century we thought atoms were stable. Now we know they really are not. It is technically "possible" for you to put your hand through a brick wall, as the atoms within it are vibrating, and not truly stable. Is it going to happen? Probably not, but it's not an impossibility. Or so I have read.

But you are right that we lack the controlled, empirical evidence. On the other hand, it wasn't until the 70's or so that lucid dreaming became a "fact." Who knows what will happen in thirty years?

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I would actually disagree with you, StephL; I don't think we understand very much about nature at all, and perhaps even less about our own minds. Empirical science has been proven flawed--in particular regards to its reliance on logic and perception--mental constructs both--in order to "explain" perceived mental phenomenon. To me that is the needle trying to sew its own eye shut.

And I would actually disagree with you on this in turn!

We do know quite a lot. But it would lead this thread off topic, if I would try to give an overview on the state of affairs in modern science and especially neuroscience here. What is correct, though, is that we don't know overly much about consciousness and it's origins. But it's not so, that we don't know anything at all - there is some really fascinating science being done these days!
And LDing is quite the hype among neuroscientists/psychiatrists/... at the moment - especially in Germany for some reason.
Because it's something to study 'meta-consciousness' with, and separately from "all the rest".

I recommend to check out this sub-forum: Lucid Dreaming News
And I made a thread a while back: http://www.dreamviews.com/science-ma...%B4t-know.html
As far as I remember - the latter still lacks a proper discussion about the neuroscientific parts of our ignorance, it was mainly about physics and cosmology, but with "traces of the good stuff". It might be a better place for this topic!

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I realize I do not speak for everyone. However, there has been so much anecdotal evidence concerning phenomena like telepathy and precognition that it seems hasty to suggest that sharing dreams is impossible. We barely know what is possible. At the beginning of the century we thought atoms were stable. Now we know they really are not. It is technically "possible" for you to put your hand through a brick wall, as the atoms within it are vibrating, and not truly stable. Is it going to happen? Probably not, but it's not an impossibility. Or so I have read.

But you are right that we lack the controlled, empirical evidence. On the other hand, it wasn't until the 70's or so that lucid dreaming became a "fact." Who knows what will happen in thirty years?

Who knows indeed!
And as I keep acknowledging - one cannot prove a negative scientifically - meaning one cannot claim that certain things are impossible.
Like the famous flying spaghetti monster (FSM), or a tea-kettle orbiting the sun somewhere, or an invisible tiny unicorn in one's garden.
If it would bear actual real life consequences if these existed - I'm sure, there would be people claiming to have personal experience with them.
Actually there are - the FSM originally coined by Richard Dawkins as a metaphor has gained a following among atheists/agnostics/skeptics:
Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

With sightings!

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Originally Posted by Screen

I can share with you one story that baffles me to this day. Forgive me that I don't remember the book.

This man suddenly gained lucidity, and became aware he was in this hotel room, sitting on a bed with this woman, and she was smoking. I don't remember the specific dialogue. But he was basically saying that none of what was happening--including the woman--were real. She claimed otherwise, but he didn't believe her. Now, this last line I do remember. "I'll show you who's real!" She said this quite angrily, and jabbed the cigarette into the man's wrist. When he awoke, he found a burn mark in that exact same spot.

[snip]

Ah, I believe this is from Charlie Morley's "Mindfulness of Dream and Sleep." I could be wrong, but I know I have read the same book recently.

Actually, unless my mind fails me, it's from Castanedas "The art of dreaming".

Edit: my mind failed me. There is a scene in Castanedas book, where a man and a woman are sitting on a hotel bed, talking about whether they're in a dream or in physical reality. But there is no cigarette.

There is however the same scene with a cigarette in Waggoners book on lucid dreaming. It's presented as an anecdote, but the similarity to the scene in Castanedas book is rather striking.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

There is a scene in Castanedas book, where a man and a woman are sitting on a hotel bed, talking about whether they're in a dream or in physical reality. But there is no cigarette.

There is however the same scene with a cigarette in Waggoners book on lucid dreaming.
It's presented as an anecdote, but the similarity to the scene in Castanedas book is rather striking.

Rather striking. I like that! wink.gif