Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

It's a bit wanton to put it here, even while it deals with memory access and normal/lucid dreams at points, it's more so that I wanted to give this to you anyway, Sageous, see what you think of it. My favourite philosopher Thomas Metzinger on consciousness and dreams:

http://www.philosophie.uni-mainz.de/...nen/Dreams.pdf

That's a loong tractus and in a rather sophisticated language - no need to read at all, or it all of course, but maybe when you're in the mood to, you might find it interesting - not only you of course, but I thought of you first for some reason, and Zoth.



Got it from a link from here - more easily digestible and directly about LDing: Getting Lucid about Consciousness

Great posts all, guys, thanks! It's best when the conversation goes on without me, I think, but I wanted to throw in a couple of quick thoughts:

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

The theory being out of habit that will manifest during a reality check in a dream and have the potential to connect with waking memory? Perhaps by leading to a dead-end in backward dream time and trigger an insight/realization of waking life, thereby providing a frame of reference to contrast the two realities and increasing lucidity in respect to memory?

In a word: yup.

I think your question was rhetorical, but I figured I should answer to confirm that you got it mostly right -- I tend to shy away from the word "habit," because habits imply rote behavior that can just as likely lead to false lucids (i.e., dreams about doing that RC, and "remembering," thanks to your ever-agile dreaming mind, places other than your bed). Instead of "habit," think in terms of that bit of remembering where you just were after a RC helping you develop a general mindset that includes an interest in remembering... so, should you do a RC after you realize you are lucid, you will want to remember where your sleeping body is.

On writing the above, I realize that I might just be talking semantics here, and "habit" and "general mindset" are pretty much the same thing. I don't believe they are, but I won't argue that they are not.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

... not once in a lucid have I contemplated "my body is asleep in bed, and this amazing dreaming experience is all the creation of my mind." I remember (TOTM, competition) goals reasonably well, though. Having such a reflective moment at the start of an LD is moving to the top of my list. It will, as Nfri's Yuschak excerpt and as Sageous has been telling us since forever, take my LDs up to the next level, I'm positive.

Well, better late than never, right?

Since it's been brought up a few times already, let me reiterate that trying to remember where your sleeping body is, and that it is both asleep and not the "body" you are currently occupying, is about the best way I know to restore your connection with memory. Funny thing about remembering more abstract things like dream goals: though that is always a good thing to do, dream goals are items (call them "day-residue-plus," because you have likely included your goals when generating expectations during the day or setting intention at bedtime) that may already be built into your dream schemata (a very good thing, BTW), and are idling in your unconscious until you lucidly get to them... in other words, you can access your goals without modifying your weak or absent connection to memory. Better to remember something real, like the fact that just a few minutes ago you were falling asleep in bed, and that your body is still there, snoozing away.

Another thought I just had along these lines, remembering your sleeping body is also better than the "remember to remember" exercise, in terms of reconnecting with memory. Though remembering to remember is a great thing to do for building your self-awareness, and a good practice in waking-life as well, it too might be a bit too abstract or potentially esoteric to guarantee a reconnect with your memory.

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Hey Nfri, I don't go with your idea that we dream all through the night. There are clearly very different levels of activity that can be measured in the sleeping brain, and the slow wave Delta activity really does seem to be that the brain is working at a much slower pace than when in REM.
No one quite understands why we dream, but the chemical cycles strongly suggest heightened consciousness during dreams.

I hope Nfri doesn't mind if I butt in here -- and still answers you on his own -- but I believe that consciousness can function just fine during delta (or at any other time of the night). I believe this not just because I've managed a few full nights of self-awareness, so for me it is proven, but because consciousness is always active at some level; yes, during delta sleep we do lack the levels of consciousness enjoyed in REM, but consciousness is still present and can be elevated -- especially if you are able to hold onto self-awareness and remember during delta!

I don't quite get the point about memory either. Our life experience memories don't disappear when we sleep. They are still there, and it is the block on recall of those memories that stops or hinders lucid dreaming.
We should redefine consciousness to include dreaming as an inner consciousness, and waking life as external consciousness perhaps?

No, our life-experience memories do not disappear; we simply lose access to them during dreams. That was sort of my point, that memory is as complete and functional as ever during sleep, but our capacity to access it at that time is diminished, completely extinguished, or, yes, blocked. So you and I are in agreement here (I'll let Nfri speak for himself).

I also see no need to redefine consciousness as you describe. I think consciousness itself is pretty much the same in waking-life as it is in dreams; it is your waking-life self-awareness that you are elevating to become lucid, and not consciousness. And in my mind you can be just as unconscious during waking-life as in dreams.


I will check out those links, Steph; thanks for sharing!


Thanks again, guys, and I hope you keep up the conversation!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think your question was rhetorical, but I figured I should answer to confirm that you got it mostly right -- I tend to shy away from the word "habit," because habits imply rote behavior that can just as likely lead to false lucids (i.e., dreams about doing that RC, and "remembering," thanks to your ever-agile dreaming mind, places other than your bed). Instead of "habit," think in terms of that bit of remembering where you just were after a RC helping you develop a general mindset that includes an interest in remembering... so, should you do a RC after you realize you are lucid, you will want to remember where your sleeping body is.

On writing the above, I realize that I might just be talking semantics here, and "habit" and "general mindset" are pretty much the same thing. I don't believe they are, but I won't argue that they are not.

It was rhetorical, but I did want your take on it and it's much appreciated! As for the semantics, I do believe it's important. I'm experimenting with autosuggestion for dream quality and recall, and depending on the results I will decide whether or not to incorporate it and to what extent into the next steps in my journey (lucidity, control and this quality of memory you're addressing). So I think the wording of the affirmations are of particular importance in order to plant the proper shade of suggestion into the subconscious and that wording, in part, will be dictated by my waking mindset. So yeah, it seems very relevant to me.

This really is a great thread and I appreciate everyone's input!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I hope Nfri doesn't mind if I butt in here -- and still answers you on his own -- but I believe that consciousness can function just fine during delta (or at any other time of the night). I believe this not just because I've managed a few full nights of self-awareness, so for me it is proven, but because consciousness is always active at some level; yes, during delta sleep we do lack the levels of consciousness enjoyed in REM, but consciousness is still present and can be elevated -- especially if you are able to hold onto self-awareness and remember during delta!



No, our life-experience memories do not disappear; we simply lose access to them during dreams. That was sort of my point, that memory is as complete and functional as ever during sleep, but our capacity to access it at that time is diminished, completely extinguished, or, yes, blocked. So you and I are in agreement here (I'll let Nfri speak for himself).

I also see no need to redefine consciousness as you describe. I think consciousness itself is pretty much the same in waking-life as it is in dreams; it is your waking-life self-awareness that you are elevating to become lucid, and not consciousness. And in my mind you can be just as unconscious during waking-life as in dreams.

Yes I don't doubt that consciousness is there all night, but not dreaming. I just meant that for a normal nights sleep, as each sleep cycle progresses the level of consciousness waxes and wanes as the hormone levels shift.
Saying that you can have higher levels of consciousness the whole night is a bit like saying you can stay awake all night. Proving that we don't dream all night is almost impossible I guess, but the theoty that we mostly dream during REM, when the brain appears to be almost as active as when awake just seems to make sense.

I think that shows why lucid dreaming can be such a delicate balance, because the waking consciousness stupour keeps your awareness at bay while you dream. Just at the end of the sleep cycle as the hormones shift to a brief conscious wakening, you cross over from dream to waking and have a brief moment of clarity. Any conscious waking during the dream is quite likely to cause full wakefullness, as most of us know from waking just after an LD begins.

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Yes I don't doubt that consciousness is there all night, but not dreaming. I just meant that for a normal nights sleep, as each sleep cycle progresses the level of consciousness waxes and wanes as the hormone levels shift.
Saying that you can have higher levels of consciousness the whole night is a bit like saying you can stay awake all night. Proving that we don't dream all night is almost impossible I guess, but the theoty that we mostly dream during REM, when the brain appears to be almost as active as when awake just seems to make sense.

I think that shows why lucid dreaming can be such a delicate balance, because the waking consciousness stupour keeps your awareness at bay while you dream. Just at the end of the sleep cycle as the hormones shift to a brief conscious wakening, you cross over from dream to waking and have a brief moment of clarity. Any conscious waking during the dream is quite likely to cause full wakefullness, as most of us know from waking just after an LD begins.

I doubt we dream all night, but you can certainly stay conscious all night with enough training, even during delta sleep, it's been studied before.

But then again:



We just don't have the technology to do proper studies of consciousness yet. Unless you count the brain studying itself.