The Unknown

**Sensei** · 11-17-2015 12:18 AM

SPOILERS for Over the Garden Wall ahead, not many really, but yeah, I would recommend watching it.

So, I was watching Over The Garden Wall and I kept hearing theories about “what is the unknown?”, “what is the point?”, and “who is this character or that supposed to represent?”

Watching theories on the internet, I keep hearing “purgatory”, “the afterlife”, “shared dream”, “different dimension”, and “Dante’s Inferno”, all of these were quite unappealing. I even rewatched it with each of these in mind, and am rewatching it again with my wifey.

So I take a long think about these and add them together and I realized that all of these had the same element in them, “the unknown”. Now don’t get me wrong, it has elements of each of these things. Dante’s Inferno’s argument is even pretty valid until you get to the beginning credits and end credits, where everyone that they left is happy and with the person that they love again. This made it not purgatory or an afterlife either, because things weren’t perfect after, they were just better. More like Greg and Wirt just came in and made everyone’s lives better and then left. These people live in The Unknown, they were not just passing through, this gives the idea that even though it is fall and then changes to winter. In the original script they actually were supposed to be gone from Halloween to Christmas, but decided to change this. So the idea of time not flowing in their world when they are gone should probably be replaced with “time flows differently”. This place isn’t a “known place that we have a million theories about”, but an “unknown place” a place that we have heard about a little in the past and it bears resemblance to things that we have heard, almost like the beginning mentions:
Somewhere lost in the clouded annals of history,
Lies a place that few have seen.
A mysterious place, called The Unknown.
Where long-forgotten stories are revealed to those who travel through the wood.

This idea is that it will resemble things that we have heard, but only like it was passed through a crazy game of telephone. This made me happy, it isn’t explained, it doesn’t make sense, it just exists. This unknown is something that we see everywhere, and it reminded me of other TV shows that had all sorts of unknowns like “LOST” and “How I Met Your Mother”, and what do bothe of these shows have in common? One would be “the island”, “the others”, “the smoke monster” and has about a million other things that are explained. The other one has the elusive “mother”. What is the other big thing that they have in common, other than this “unknown”? The Finale sucked. I am sorry that everyone in America feels this way. I actually didn’t mind either of the Finales for these, but I was expecting a less than “amazing ending”, so I wasn’t surprised when they all fell short of excellency.
It wasn’t until this unknown became known that the TV show sucked. It is this unknown that we are seeking. By “we” I am not talking about everyone, I am talking about us, the ones that find LDing and think that it sounds like the best thing ever. Not because of all the things that we know about LDing, but because of all the things that we don’t know!

I am also someone that really likes horror movies and constantly reads creepy things on the internet, being able to put myself in someone’s shoes makes it easier for me to be scared by things, but that has changed with time and “lucid nightmares”. As much as I love scary things, it is hard for me to be scared by anything anymore, especially since I found about “the unknown”. Knowledge is the cure to fear, as long as an unknown exists, there is fear. I used to be quite scared of the ocean, not a fear like “I will never go into the ocean”, because I have been in the ocean quite a few times, but a fear like “I love hearing good scary stories about the ocean, because of the amount of things we don’t know about the ocean”. After doing research about the ocean and finding awesome things under the water like:

Really cool animals, this made me happy, but made me realize that the ocean probably isn’t as scary as I thought, it really just is similar to the rest of the world. All my fear gone… sad.

Back in the day, many stories and things were commonly accepted, about the ocean, about the woods, about the sky, about under their feet, and about anything far away. They always feared things that were unknown and things that they couldn’t know. Now we have something that takes all fear away

lol, but seriously, the internet has taken away our fears that are as primitive as forests, oceans, mountains, skies, etc, but it has given us new fears to try and take it over, “conspiracy theories”! Trying to get people to believe that things we thought were known are unknown. That there are big gaps in things that actually effect us that we don’t know. Contrails, flat earth, moon landing, narwhals, alien reptiles, etc. Lots and lots of theories all telling us things that we can’t really disprove (leastways not sitting on the internet, due to conflicting stories). People back in the day didn’t have what it took to disprove things that people told them, evil things that lived in the woods that turned you into a bird, why not? Of course, fairy tales, scary stories, and scary movies try to make the person that simply ignores things like this as stupid, because they are always some pretentious guy that doesn’t believe in ghost stories that gets killed first (or second depending on the diversity of the cast).

Now I look to childhood, where we are always afraid of the dark, under the bed, forests (I had one near my house growing up), scary stories are all scary, because we can’t tell the difference between reality and fiction, we read books about cats, dogs, and monsters. lol. Why shouldn’t these exist? You kind of forget that kids believe everything that they are told. I remember the look on my daughter’s face when I said “Here, eat a hotdog”, and she looked at it with disgust and started asking where Zatana was at. I of course had to tell her that it wasn’t a real dog, show her Zatana to assure her that she wasn’t eating a dog. Of course we weren’t eating a dog, but we eat other animals, how would she know that we aren’t just throwing dogs in our oven?

So knowledge doesn’t seem to be the right answer for what takes away fear, but knowledge of the difference between reality and fiction. So two things seem to be awakened by the unknown, fear and excitement. Fear that something bad that you don’t know is there, and hope that something good that you don’t know is there. I started applying this everywhere like I do everytime that I find something interesting.
Lucid Dreaming. Fear and excitement.

When we first start lucid dreaming, we are taking something incredibly unknown, not just to ourselves, but to anyone. You aren’t going into A dream, you are going into YOUR dream. Fear is going to be there. I am not going to be the one to say “don’t fear a lucid dream”, but that you will eventually wake up, no matter what horror comes, there will be an end.

When we first start lucid dreaming, we are taking something incredibly unknown, not just to ourselves, but to anyone. You aren’t going into A dream, you are going into YOUR dream. Excitement is going to be there.

I don’t really know how to say this, but this unknown is the biggest driving factor and driving away factor for almost all things in this world.

I don’t know how this applies to all of us, but it seems to clear things up for me. haha. Let me know what you guys think, let me know if you have any insights like this or near this.

I also don't know if this is the same across the board, but this is something that I always enjoy. I think that this is what it is like for most people that hear about LDing and want to join it are driven like this. This is why it is hard for us to understand naturals, because they seem to have a different motivation.

**RebelSeven** · 11-17-2015 06:20 AM

Fun post! A lot of this, I feel, rings true for my lucid experience too (though I've never watched this film, is it on netflix perchance?). I've had strange fantastic dreams since childhood and have always been interested in fiction and mystery, and my dreams reflected that.

I would go to bed with a mixed thrill of excitement and apprehension (my fantasy dreams were as incredible as my nightmares were terrifying) but I never regretted having nightmares the same way my siblings and friends did. As I got older I also overcame fears a lot faster than my peers (scary movies, real life gore, social pressure) I never thought there was a connection but now you make me wonder if this was a direct result of learning to navigate my dreams and the "unknown" within myself.

I do believe that later, when I discovered WILDing and the "illusion" of fear that I experienced, I learned how to directly compartmentalize my fear in real emergencies, so I can act with a clear head despite the symptoms of terror.

**Sensei** · 11-17-2015 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by RebelSeven

Fun post! A lot of this, I feel, rings true for my lucid experience too (though I've never watched this film, is it on netflix perchance?). I've had strange fantastic dreams since childhood and have always been interested in fiction and mystery, and my dreams reflected that.

I would go to bed with a mixed thrill of excitement and apprehension (my fantasy dreams were as incredible as my nightmares were terrifying) but I never regretted having nightmares the same way my siblings and friends did. As I got older I also overcame fears a lot faster than my peers (scary movies, real life gore, social pressure) I never thought there was a connection but now you make me wonder if this was a direct result of learning to navigate my dreams and the "unknown" within myself.

I do believe that later, when I discovered WILDing and the "illusion" of fear that I experienced, I learned how to directly compartmentalize my fear in real emergencies, so I can act with a clear head despite the symptoms of terror.

I am glad you enjoyed the post.

I remember so many ridiculous adventures and insane nightmares when I was a kid. After I was about 7 I stopped having the nightmares due to waking myself up when I realized that it was a nightmare. I didn't have nightmares until I started LDing 13 years later. It was a mixture of fear and excitement, but I also never hated my nightmares, I thought that they were insanely terrifying during, but when I woke up, I was really glad I had them, this has made me try very hard to have nightmares, but it is very rare to have a nightmare when you are not stressed or really really afraid of something.
I don't know if they depend on each other, but they seem to go side by side. Who knows though.

Kind of like how when you open a door, you either go into a room or outside, they are similar paths, but couldn't be any different when you pass through. They don't need the other to exist or happen because of each other, but they do have a common entryway.

I often stayed up too late and experienced mild auditory hallucinations (generally due to reading too late or for too many nights in a row). I would hear, not only the house creaking, but also someone breathing in the next room or a window opening. I was so sure that I was going to die one night, so I was praying and freaking out and pretty sure that someone was in my bathroom, slowly opening my door. I read my Bible and read Ecclesiastes 3:2, there is a time to live and a time to die. I was very sure that I was going to die, and thought that if I alerted my parents he might turn more violent, or that if I just went to sleep he might just steal things and leave without killing. I went to sleep very sure that I was going to die (sleep deprived teenager ok.

), but since then I have not feared death in the least. A lot of people are pretty sure of what happens when they die, but I think that a big unknown, or maybe even a bigger one is how will you face death. For some crazy reason, this night a decade ago stuck out and completely changed who I am. It always reminds me of the song "Do you know what is worth fighting for, when it is not worth dying for?" and I realized that I would make my decisions in my life without the thought of death being a factor, but other people. I have only had to use this a couple of times, but I realized on a broader scope that the people that you choose to spend your life with and the things that you choose to live with and for are the same things that you are choosing to die for. For some reason my mind makes everything seem more hardcore than it already is, haha.

I recommend checking out Over The Garden Wall, it will make you think a lot if you are an introspective person that can enjoy a good cartoon.

**Patience108** · 11-17-2015 10:55 AM

Ok Sensei - gonna check it out

Thanks for your thoughts - lucid dreaming does feel like a scary thing sometimes -even though i try to convince myself its all fun ..sometimes

well if ones spends time to ponder it even a little deeply like you said " lucid , aware in my dream, my world, my stuff ...my deep unknown

yes ... in the true sense that one realy doesn't know what one will face - Could be anything! And yes as a lucid dreamer we know that tobe actualy lucid means we have to face things...show up...know we are here.. - facing the unknown in ourselves everytime we are lucid - wow that sounds good and terrifying - terrifyingly good.Maybe i am morbid but to me thats a beautifull thing and 100% worth doing

**Rodrodrod** · 11-17-2015 11:03 AM

Very nostalgic post haha. I think we can all relate in one way or another. It seems to be the root of all things, this duality between fear/love that drives us into doing anything. We must have one to have the other and not knowing which makes for a great journey. I guess what's important is to have this mentally that we experienced lucid dreamers seem to have of appreciation of both sides; although the experience may feel terrible while it's happening, it's like you said, nothing truly lasts so we don't need to be put off by the experience in the future, and the same for pleasant dreams that you hear about all the time and how people feel sad that it ended and have this longing for it. It's important to always know that there is more and that we should be glad it happened and that we can do things differently when the time comes again (in case of nightmares).

Will check out Over The Garden Wall when I can, as it seems to be the second post about it I've seen. Btw are those lyrics to Green Day - 21 Guns? You just made me listen to their music haha.

**RebelSeven** · 11-17-2015 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sensei

I didn't have nightmares until I started LDing 13 years later.

Interesting, seems rooting around in your brain stirs up some old dust!

I was very sure that I was going to die, and thought that if I alerted my parents he might turn more violent, or that if I just went to sleep he might just steal things and leave without killing. I went to sleep very sure that I was going to die (sleep deprived teenager ok.

though, if anyone claims they have never thought like this while lying in the dark alone then they are lying!

the people that you choose to spend your life with and the things that you choose to live with and for are the same things that you are choosing to die for.

If someone truly lives with their actions in line with their heart and their mind then yeah, I believe the phrase "to live for" and "to die for" are interchangeable. If someone reflects on their life and their position and finds themselves living for something they wouldn't die for then their path isn't a reflection of their true self. At least it seems that way to me. So far it seems all these lucid dreamers are in agreement

I have an interesting phenomena of fear in my dreams, I think it's always been a part of me. Invariably if I get near water scary things happen. This can be water the size of a fish tank, or the ocean itself. Often the water turns dark or murky, unknown species of poisonous and violent fish appear, there may suddenly be rotting flesh or some other repulsive contaminant. This is so reliable that it now often makes me lucid. Ive worked with this strange issue for a couple years now and don't think I've made much progress toward understanding it. The longer I stay near water the darker and more scary the dream becomes.

I should mention that I have no fear of water in waking life, I swim in pools, rivers, and the ocean with no apprehension. I love fishing and fish in general.

**Rodrodrod** · 11-17-2015 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by RebelSeven

If someone truly lives with their actions in line with their heart and their mind then yeah, I believe the phrase "to live for" and "to die for" are interchangeable. If someone reflects on their life and their position and finds themselves living for something they wouldn't die for then their path isn't a reflection of their true self. At least it seems that way to me. So far it seems all these lucid dreamers are in agreement

I think so too, and that's also what I have heard/read that "Sin" originally meant. That in the original translation to sin, meant: "To Miss the Mark" which means that one is essentially not living effectively, they are not living in accordance to their true self and their own individual goals, plans and way of living. I don't know if this is indeed the original translation, but it definitely makes sense to me and I thought migh be interesting (Anyways, I am not religious)

Originally Posted by RebelSeven

I have an interesting phenomena of fear in my dreams, I think it's always been a part of me. Invariably if I get near water scary things happen. This can be water the size of a fish tank, or the ocean itself. Often the water turns dark or murky, unknown species of poisonous and violent fish appear, there may suddenly be rotting flesh or some other repulsive contaminant. This is so reliable that it now often makes me lucid. Ive worked with this strange issue for a couple years now and don't think I've made much progress toward understanding it. The longer I stay near water the darker and more scary the dream becomes.

I should mention that I have no fear of water in waking life, I swim in pools, rivers, and the ocean with no apprehension. I love fishing and fish in general.

Wow that is really fascinating! I can only think of my own dreams with water which usually something really cool happens. I've seen floating water droplets or whirlpools, but it's not recuring. Still that's good that you can become lucid from it, so hopefully can learn more from it.

**Sensei** · 11-20-2015 03:14 AM

@Patience!
I love the good, crazy, and terrifying ideas of LDing.

I think that being able to face anything sounds so amazing and awesome! A real adventure, of course, that is probably why adventure seems like such a good time. Every new adventure could lead you to Rivendale or to Moria, to Narnia or Charn, Azkaban or Hogwart, the Colored Forest or the Black Forest. The next thing you face could be Gandalf or Saruman, Aslan or the White Witch, Bellatrix or Dumbledore, Elyon or Teelah. You don't know what is around any turn.

@rodrodrod
first post
Thanks! I am glad you liked it, I don't know how watching a TV show for the first time can feel so nostalgic, but I realized that this how it felt, and really similar to how I feel when I think about this "unknown" something similar to nostalgia. I think the word is similar to "frisson".

@rebelseven
Yes, the staying up all hours of the night, nightmares, and dreams all seem to be contained in the same memory bank. That is why there is no time that I want to dream more than when I am accidentally staying up way too late.

haha, I agree, we are all a little crazy at that age and rational thought is not 100% rooted.

It may not be what they would want to be living and dying for, but it is their true self, whether they want it to be or not. I should quote some batman:
"It is not who you are underneath, it is what you do that defines you."
Now if what you are underneath and what you do don't coincide, then what you are underneath doesn't matter.

It is just a concept of your true self, whereas your true self is what you ended up doing.

That is quite interesting about water, a schema that seems to haunt you. Have you thought about dispelling this while lucid?

It reminds me of Fin the Human from Adventure Time. He is super afraid of the ocean, but not lakes and rivers. Not quite the same, but he did once have an awesome lucid dream with the ocean in it.

I love seeing lucid dreams in TV shows and movies.

@rodrodrod
post 2
That is what you think the mark is, the mark in Christianity is perfection, and we won't actually reach it.

A common thought now seems to be living without hypocrisy being the only goal anyone should have in their life. haha. This is not a Christian thought, but it is a "good" thing to go away from hypocrisy.

Also! Water dream! One time I was in hogwarts and we all went in the water around there and were fighting a huge battle. I dove under the water and the huge Godzilla like monster from Star Wars Episode I. I think that was like my first time lucidly using a wand. Good times. haha.

**Patience108** · 11-20-2015 08:43 PM

yes talking of adventures ( great word for describing the Dream world btw

) I just got the video's -

Avatar - The last airbender

- just about to tuck into it!

**Rodrodrod** · 11-22-2015 12:57 PM

@sensei
Yeah frisson seems like a great word to describe this.

Haha that may be true about hypocrisy. I don't mean to argue or go off topic, but I only meant to say is that this perfection is subjective for everyone so that it can indeed be something reachable. Since also, everything in itself is perfect (imo). Otherwise what is the point? But it is indeed what I think, and I don't mean to convince or argue with anybody. That's the great thing of this "Unknown" we call life

I do enjoy hearing different perspectives so if you feel like there's more to be said feel free. (Hope I wasn't disrespectful in any way)

**SinisterDezz** · 11-26-2015 11:20 AM

@Sensei

I am actually quite proud of myself for suggesting this show to you

Glad you enjoyed it and brought some discussion from it.

Well done brother.

**RebelSeven** · 11-28-2015 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sensei

That is quite interesting about water, a schema that seems to haunt you. Have you thought about dispelling this while lucid?

It reminds me of Fin the Human from Adventure Time. He is super afraid of the ocean, but not lakes and rivers. Not quite the same, but he did once have an awesome lucid dream with the ocean in it.

I love seeing lucid dreams in TV shows and movies.

I have attempted to confront this phenomenon while lucid many times. Quick list: Diving into the water and meditating on a feeling of safety and security, seeking out whales (which I love and consider powerful and protective), eradicating the water altogether with dream control, Drinking the water, trying to clean the water (it's often scummy and rotten, bathrooms are always unbelievably unsanitary in my dreams as well, I think it's a different facet of the same issue), trying to save the "good" aquatic life that's being destroyed by the "evil" creatures, and so on

These all had varying degrees of success (and failure) in their respective dreams, but none of it has even slightly derailed it from happening again. Don't know where to go from there.

I love adventure time

When I watched the first Ocean episode I immediately made the connection to me dreams. I was actually really disappointed that Finn didn't come up with an infallible way to overcome his fear, I was going to steal it XD.

I do think its worth mentioning that these dreams never carry a fear of drowning or the force of the water itself damaging me (whirlpools, tsunami's, rip tides, etc) it's always what's IN the water that transforms the dream into a nightmare.