Twisted Logic

[madmagus]

Perhaps we look at ourselves from the wrong perspective when it comes to training our dreaming minds to achieve lucidity. We are always trying to make the dreaming mind recognize aspects of waking consciousness in order to become lucid. Maybe our approach is a bit off, if not backward in a way. We look to achieve conscious awareness of the 'Now' in our waking existence, to be in the moment as much as we possibly can, hoping for this truth to pass into our dream state and make us aware there as well, mimicking our waking state awareness. But what I put to you is that in our dream state we are already aware of 'Now', already in the moment. We are perpetually in the moment while in the dream state, to such an extent that we see nothing else. It is not that we have no memory of the past or contemplation of the future, per se. We are simply so totally devoted to being in the moment, in the 'Now', that anything else is irrelevant to our mind. We are hyper-aware of the 'Now' while dreaming. So, we don't simply need more moment-to-moment awareness in the dream. What we need, perhaps, is to be focusing not soley on moment-to-moment awareness in our waking state. Expanded awareness of the 'now' is what we should be trying to pass to the dream state. To be aware of the present moment but at the same time having the expanded awareness of who we are in the big picture. Pure, focused awareness of the 'Now' moment is actually the enemy, so to speak, of becoming lucid in our dreams. We have to break the dreaming mind's total focus of the 'moment' and allow it to see just a little bit more. While in your mindfulness meditation, as an example, don't simply focus on what is going on in the self. Instead, focus on your energy and how it expands into the universe around you. Feel your energy interact with what is around you. Acknowledge your greater place, not simply the small you. And I'm speaking of meditation that is specifically directed at Lucid Dreaming, not meditation in general. So, don't get the wrong idea. This idea is LD specific. Be in the 'Now', but an expanded 'Now." Let that reality drift into the dream state. Breaking the over-focus on the 'Now' of the dreaming mind is our true goal. I believe that there should be other practices during the day that can be done to assist this process, but I am still rambling through them with my un-caffeinated morning brain. Would love some feedback on what people think.

[madmagus]

Perhaps now I can see what natural lucid dreamers are doing. They don't simply live in the 'now' more than the rest of us. They feel themselves part of their environment more than the rest of us. They naturally feel more attuned to their surroundings, and thus they naturally feel more attuned to their dream state as well. Better overall connectivity. Maybe a natural lucid dreamer has a comment.

[madmagus]

I've thought of a mantra that might follow the above train of thought. It's not a new one. I've read it somewhere before within this forum, just not in relation to the above concept. It follows along with the idea of memory being important to the lucid process that I first read about in a Sageous post some time back. It would go something like this: "I remember going to bed." Or something similar. It's designed as a memory prod that breaks the dreaming mind out of the "moment." Essentially, I'm looking for an autosuggestion that will trigger lucidity by breaking the dreaming mind's single-minded lock on the 'now."

[fogelbise]

I don't think I have ever heard it put quite that way…that we go through the dreams much like living in the now, which is also a goal of mindfulness. It is an odd concept that really makes one think about lucidity, thank you! I wonder how false memories, that often occur while dreaming, factor in with this concept. Sageous, is there anything you would like to add here? The quote below seems related to your RRC. While in your mindfulness meditation, as an example, don't simply focus on what is going on in the self. Instead, focus on your energy and how it expands into the universe around you. Feel your energy interact with what is around you. That type of lucid dreaming focused meditation does seems to pair well with the part of Sageous' RRC that involves really stopping and wondering (with real wonder) about our effect on everything immediately around us and it on us. I actually do something that is kind of a mix of these two things that may be considered a mini-meditation moment. Let's dig some more!

[Sageous]

... Sageous, is there anything you would like to add here? Not really... it seemed to be off to a good start with the OP; I hoped to just read and watch things develop, and then maybe throw in a few cents later. I did post on Madmagus' sort of companion thread to this one, and only managed to send it down an off-topic rabbit hole; I didn't want to jinx this one, too! But as long as I'm here, I did have one nit-picky thought about your OP, Madmagus, though in general I am both in agreement and intrigued. Here's the thought: ...But what I put to you is that in our dream state we are already aware of 'Now', already in the moment. We are perpetually in the moment while in the dream state, to such an extent that we see nothing else. It is not that we have no memory of the past or contemplation of the future, per se. We are simply so totally devoted to being in the moment, in the 'Now', that anything else is irrelevant to our mind. We are hyper-aware of the 'Now' while dreaming. I don't think it has any effect on your overall concept, but I tend to disagree with that. During NLD's, though we are certainly existing in a near perfect Here&Now state, we are not aware of "Now" at all. In fact, I believe it is just the opposite: When we're not lucid, there is most certainly a past in our dreamworld; we remember lots of things. The trouble here is that what wen on-lucidly "remember" usually has very little to do with our actual memory, personal history and experience (aka, identity), but a lot to do with whatever history our dreaming mind assembled for the particular dream. For example, if during a NLD you are having lunch on the moon with a dead relative, you easily remember that you're supposed to be there -- maybe even that you've lived on the moon for years -- and you have no trouble "remembering" who your relative is and any history your dreaming mind has attached to her; you might even exchange stories of past experiences that never happened in waking-life, in seemingly precise detail. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the mindset of non-lucid DC "you" is very similar to the mindset of waking-life "you" when on autopilot: you are navigating your world and interacting with people with a tacit assumption that you have a past (and future, for that matter). And, just like waking-life autopilot mode, you really have no awareness of "Now" at all. A non-lucid "you" might exist in the moment almost by definition, but it has no awareness of its presence in that moment; the only devotion to "Now" is coincidental, and not phenomenological... sort of like how a mouse is hyper-aware of its surroundings (lest it die), but has no idea that it is being aware; observe that mouse and it sure looks devoted to paying attention to everything, but really it's just running its basic "autopilot" program, mindful of nothing. So: though on paper it seems we ought to be hyper-aware of the moment, of the Here&Now state in which we are perfectly nestled in dreams, in truth we "think" our dreamworld has a past, present, and future, just like waking life. Again, I don't think this disagreement has any negative bearing on the rest of your post: your suggestions are excellent and well worth discussing and exploring... I just couldn't shake my trouble with that one paragraph. Oh, and keep in mind I wasn't going to say anything, so you have Fogelbise to thank for bringing my annoying nit-pickyness into your thread!

[madmagus]

Then I thank Fogelbise, because you made me look deeper into my comments. It's too easy to get lost in your own assumptions without ever recognizing that you are making them. And I like the mouse analogy. It may be quite appropriate to our non-lucid states, as our sub/unconscious programming runs our lives by way of habitual action some 90 percent of the time. I'm interested in your statement regarding how we perceive the 'Now' in non-lucid dreams, that we are just as unaware of it in the dream world as we are in the waking. I suppose it is an assumption on my part that we are aware of the now while dreaming rather than simply existing within it, unaware as we usually are in waking life. Just because we exist only in the 'dream' moment, doesn't mean we are aware of ourselves within it. Interesting, and probably correct, if I understood you rightly. On your other point, I don't think we are aware of memories as past events or necessarily that we recognize people because they are part of our known past (dream or otherwise), and that by default we have access to dream-related memories. But this just opens a new can of worms. Because my next statement would be that the un/subconscious mind creates the dream en masse, thus creates all aspects of it to move the plot forward. In other words, any 'past' or 'future' memories would be programmed elements, not elements that we, as DCs in non-lucid dreams, actually had to think up or remember. So, "we remember lots of things", is just a programmed DC response, not an actual act of remembering. The moment we started thinking of such things on our own, i.e. outside the dream's content as initially programmed, would be the moment we became lucid. The memories, etc., would exist as part of the dream event as a whole, as would DC responses, to include our own responses. Only with lucidity would we be free to think independently in those terms. But what does that mean re the dreaming mind being too much in the 'Now?' I suppose I would continue with the initial train of thought by simply saying that the 'Now' of the dreaming mind incorporates the entire dream, because the entire dream is actually a single 'Now' element as created by the un/subconscious mind for the purpose, whatever that maybe, of the DC (you) experiencing that particular dream sequence. This doesn't mean we are any more self-aware within this expanded concept of 'Now.' Of course, by stating the above, I make another assumption, that we have zero volitional control of our actions within a non-lucid dream. I don't believe we have volitional options within the non-lucid framework, but i'm not in a position to guarantee it. So, what is self-awareness attaching itself to within the dream event that allows the advent of volitional thought to bring about lucidity? What is the mechanism that allows the programmed event to be disrupted? It must be an exterior function intruding onto the closed system of the dream. Okay, now I'm starting to wander off. Any thoughts before I get myself lost in the next twist?

[madmagus]

Fogelbise, I'll look at Sageous' RRC. I remember reading something about it, but I don't have it readily in mind enough to comment at the moment. From what little you stated, it looks interesting, but I think I want to get a little deeper into the content of this thread to see if it naturally incorporates itself into the exposed ideas, especially in regard to tapping into the closed system of the dream. thanks for the response.

[Sageous]

Interesting thoughts, Madmagus... here are a couple more of my own, though I have to keep it brief tonight: On your other point, I don't think we are aware of memories as past events or necessarily that we recognize people because they are part of our known past (dream or otherwise), and that by default we have access to dream-related memories. But this just opens a new can of worms. I agree with this, actually. During NLD's we are aware of memories, but only the memories incorporated into the "history" of a given dream. Those dreamworld memories are not required to, and probably won't, mirror actual waking-life memories or events, just as your recognition of the other DC's in a dream is more dependent on your dream's plot than it is on reality (though I think some people, like loved ones, tend to reflect the "real thing," even if you can't remember minor details like, say, that they died years ago -- that sounded better in my head!). So yes, we do not have access to the actual memories that would correct or negate the ones a dream might imply (like, say, you cannot have lunch on the moon with dead people), but we do have access to the ersatz memories provided by our dreaming minds. But the worm can is open, so: Because my next statement would be that the un/subconscious mind creates the dream en masse, thus creates all aspects of it to move the plot forward. In other words, any 'past' or 'future' memories would be programmed elements, not elements that we, as DCs in non-lucid dreams, actually had to think up or remember. So, "we remember lots of things", is just a programmed DC response, not an actual act of remembering. The moment we started thinking of such things on our own, i.e. outside the dream's content as initially programmed, would be the moment we became lucid. The memories, etc., would exist as part of the dream event as a whole, as would DC responses, to include our own responses. Only with lucidity would we be free to think independently in those terms. Agreed. That said, I must mention that I've never quite subscribed to the notion that the entire dream is created en masse...I've always felt that our dreaming minds sort of make it up as they go. Having the entire dream -- its world, its plot, its DC's, its memories, etc. -- exist as a unit from the get-go just seems too prepared from my perspective. So the "programming" still takes place, but I think it might be done on the fly rather than all at once. Again, though, I don't think my different perspective would have any impact on your train of thought, because dreams created on the fly are just as parked in the "Now" as those created in advance ... and non-lucid "you" will be just as unaware of your presence in either case. Also, either form of dream creation exists outside of time, so that perfect Here&Now will exist in both cases. So: yes, the memories and recognitions non-lucid "you" experience are tapped not from your actual memory, but from information provided by your dreaming mind, and accuracy is not a factor. That inaccuracy is immediately negated with the onset of lucidity, of course. As an aside: This "dreams are created on the fly" perspective, even if it is wrong, is very helpful to dream control, because if you know that your dream is being created as you experience it, you can more easily influence the next creation, as opposed to feeling like you must work with a given dreamworld and plot whose creation is already complete, and whose future is determined. But what does that mean re the dreaming mind being too much in the 'Now?'' I suppose I would continue with the initial train of thought by simply saying that the 'Now' of the dreaming mind incorporates the entire dream, because the entire dream is actually a single 'Now' element as created by the un/subconscious mind for the purpose, whatever that maybe, of the DC (you) experiencing that particular dream sequence. This doesn't mean we are any more self-aware within this expanded concept of 'Now.'... Did I say that about "too much in the Now?" I don't think there can ever be such a state, even in the case of the "perfect" Here&Now condition of a NLD. That your dreaming mind is processing your world in a "Now only" context is not much different than how the physical world is presented at any given moment, BTW (which begs another reference to that time thread I mentioned on your other thread). Did I miss something? Of course, by stating the above, I make another assumption, that we have zero volitional control of our actions within a non-lucid dream. I don't believe we have volitional options within the non-lucid framework, but i'm not in a position to guarantee it. We may not be able to guarantee it, especially because our non-lucid DC "selves" are sure they have complete volition, because we think we're awake when not lucid -- but it's probably true... So, what is self-awareness attaching itself to within the dream event that allows the advent of volitional thought to bring about lucidity? What is the mechanism that allows the programmed event to be disrupted? It must be an exterior function intruding onto the closed system of the dream. That exterior function is, I believe, memory. Though self-awareness must be present in order to initiate lucidity, it is the tapping of memory that completes the progression to full lucidity. For instance, you might have enough self-awareness to do an RC, but it is the recognition --the remembering -- that, say, your finger cannot pass through your palm in waking life, that brings on full lucidity. Now, how self-awareness manages to surface in the first place is a puzzle that we've all been trying to solve since day one -- inducing that presence is at the core of pretty much all the techniques we use. Finally, it might help to consider that maybe dreaming is not a closed system, but simply a system that is by nature meant to evade our conscious attention... once we are able to pay attention to its system, a dream is not a closed system at all. As long as I'm here: Fogelbise, I'll look at Sageous' RRC. I remember reading something about it, but I don't have it readily in mind enough to comment at the moment. From what little you stated, it looks interesting, but I think I want to get a little deeper into the content of this thread to see if it naturally incorporates itself into the exposed ideas, especially in regard to tapping into the closed system of the dream. If you're curious about RRC's, I think I introduced it in the first session of my DVA WILD class. It does reflect some of what you're considering here, so you might find it helpful.

[fogelbise]

If you're curious about RRC's, I think I introduced it in the first session of my DVA WILD class. It does reflect some of what you're considering here, so you might find it helpful. Yes, that link provides an excellent overview of the RRC! I still remember when I was really struggling to wrap my head around the RRC, and it is still a work in progress. I feel it is work well worth taking the time to put in. When I leave RRC's out of my day practices, I seem to have more semi-lucids and when I am actively practicing it, that seems to give me more high level lucid dreams (perhaps better described as having a high level of self awareness and memory in the dream). My brain seems too tired to process much of the latest material in this thread, but I am encouraged to see the further digging that has happened.

[madmagus]

I think, Sageous, that we are as close as necessary to being on the same page with this, whether we look at the dream as a prepackaged whole or as being built on the fly. The result is pretty much the same, or so it seems to me as I look in from the outside. But, we still have that pesky cart before the horse thingy in regard to the ultimate instigator. Maybe with enough banging of the forum's collective heads something will fall out. The closed system analogy probably is too inclusive. I suppose, upon reflection, that it can not be completely closed or we'd never find our way in. But it is certainly so to a significant degree, at least at the outset. I suppose this is just another way of stating what we've said elsewhere in that we need to find the true initiating trigger that inserts the memory into said system. And, yes, I'm probably being too literal with this analogy. I think conversations like this, whether carrying repetitive elements or not, help to hone the focus of our targeting computer. But it may eventually give us our true target. We know, for instance, a number of techniques that already penetrate the system. What many of us still search for, though, is the 'why.' We're not satisfied simply knowing a few marginal 'HOWs.' The 'WHY' opens the doors wide. I agree with your statement regarding the physically dead, but that is such a long, involved, independent topic I won't comment otherwise here. It delves far too deeply into the entire underlying philosophy of LD/OBE. However, the concept of evasion has intrigued me for a while now. I too often think I've found the perfect dream sign that I can insert via dream incubation, and the dreaming mind laughs and only gives me dream scenarios bereft of said dream sign, as if purposefully mocking my attempts to circumvent the system. Assuming no outside source, I suppose that would be me mocking me. Oh, dear. Perhaps a good internal trashing would clear things up. And thanks for the DVA WILD class link. I'll check it out. As a side note, I have no permissions for your time thread. You've locked it away for the exclusive viewing of the privileged few, lol, and I don't meet the necessary criteria for joining. thanks for the response. At the least, we clear away some of the fog.

[Sageous]

As a side note, I have no permissions for your time thread. You've locked it away for the exclusive viewing of the privileged few, lol, and I don't meet the necessary criteria for joining. I think you just need to PM a mod to give you permission, though I'm not sure. I guess that's why Deep Dreaming isn't a very popular forum!