Thread: Twisted Logic

Interesting thoughts, Madmagus... here are a couple more of my own, though I have to keep it brief tonight:

Originally Posted by madmagus

On your other point, I don't think we are aware of memories as past events or necessarily that we recognize people because they are part of our known past (dream or otherwise), and that by default we have access to dream-related memories. But this just opens a new can of worms.

I agree with this, actually. During NLD's we are aware of memories, but only the memories incorporated into the "history" of a given dream. Those dreamworld memories are not required to, and probably won't, mirror actual waking-life memories or events, just as your recognition of the other DC's in a dream is more dependent on your dream's plot than it is on reality (though I think some people, like loved ones, tend to reflect the "real thing," even if you can't remember minor details like, say, that they died years ago -- that sounded better in my head!). So yes, we do not have access to the actual memories that would correct or negate the ones a dream might imply (like, say, you cannot have lunch on the moon with dead people), but we do have access to the ersatz memories provided by our dreaming minds.

But the worm can is open, so:

Because my next statement would be that the un/subconscious mind creates the dream en masse, thus creates all aspects of it to move the plot forward. In other words, any 'past' or 'future' memories would be programmed elements, not elements that we, as DCs in non-lucid dreams, actually had to think up or remember. So, "we remember lots of things", is just a programmed DC response, not an actual act of remembering. The moment we started thinking of such things on our own, i.e. outside the dream's content as initially programmed, would be the moment we became lucid. The memories, etc., would exist as part of the dream event as a whole, as would DC responses, to include our own responses. Only with lucidity would we be free to think independently in those terms.

Agreed.

That said, I must mention that I've never quite subscribed to the notion that the entire dream is created en masse...I've always felt that our dreaming minds sort of make it up as they go. Having the entire dream -- its world, its plot, its DC's, its memories, etc. -- exist as a unit from the get-go just seems too prepared from my perspective.

So the "programming" still takes place, but I think it might be done on the fly rather than all at once. Again, though, I don't think my different perspective would have any impact on your train of thought, because dreams created on the fly are just as parked in the "Now" as those created in advance ... and non-lucid "you" will be just as unaware of your presence in either case. Also, either form of dream creation exists outside of time, so that perfect Here&Now will exist in both cases.

So: yes, the memories and recognitions non-lucid "you" experience are tapped not from your actual memory, but from information provided by your dreaming mind, and accuracy is not a factor. That inaccuracy is immediately negated with the onset of lucidity, of course.

As an aside: This "dreams are created on the fly" perspective, even if it is wrong, is very helpful to dream control, because if you know that your dream is being created as you experience it, you can more easily influence the next creation, as opposed to feeling like you must work with a given dreamworld and plot whose creation is already complete, and whose future is determined.

But what does that mean re the dreaming mind being too much in the 'Now?'' I suppose I would continue with the initial train of thought by simply saying that the 'Now' of the dreaming mind incorporates the entire dream, because the entire dream is actually a single 'Now' element as created by the un/subconscious mind for the purpose, whatever that maybe, of the DC (you) experiencing that particular dream sequence. This doesn't mean we are any more self-aware within this expanded concept of 'Now.'...

Did I say that about "too much in the Now?" I don't think there can ever be such a state, even in the case of the "perfect" Here&Now condition of a NLD. That your dreaming mind is processing your world in a "Now only" context is not much different than how the physical world is presented at any given moment, BTW (which begs another reference to that time thread I mentioned on your other thread). Did I miss something?

Of course, by stating the above, I make another assumption, that we have zero volitional control of our actions within a non-lucid dream. I don't believe we have volitional options within the non-lucid framework, but i'm not in a position to guarantee it.

We may not be able to guarantee it, especially because our non-lucid DC "selves" are sure they have complete volition, because we think we're awake when not lucid -- but it's probably true...

So, what is self-awareness attaching itself to within the dream event that allows the advent of volitional thought to bring about lucidity? What is the mechanism that allows the programmed event to be disrupted? It must be an exterior function intruding onto the closed system of the dream.

That exterior function is, I believe, memory. Though self-awareness must be present in order to initiate lucidity, it is the tapping of memory that completes the progression to full lucidity. For instance, you might have enough self-awareness to do an RC, but it is the recognition --the remembering -- that, say, your finger cannot pass through your palm in waking life, that brings on full lucidity.

Now, how self-awareness manages to surface in the first place is a puzzle that we've all been trying to solve since day one -- inducing that presence is at the core of pretty much all the techniques we use.

Finally, it might help to consider that maybe dreaming is not a closed system, but simply a system that is by nature meant to evade our conscious attention... once we are able to pay attention to its system, a dream is not a closed system at all.

As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by madmagus

Fogelbise, I'll look at Sageous' RRC. I remember reading something about it, but I don't have it readily in mind enough to comment at the moment. From what little you stated, it looks interesting, but I think I want to get a little deeper into the content of this thread to see if it naturally incorporates itself into the exposed ideas, especially in regard to tapping into the closed system of the dream.

If you're curious about RRC's, I think I introduced it in the first session of my DVA WILD class. It does reflect some of what you're considering here, so you might find it helpful.