• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Results 1 to 9 of 9
    Like Tree9Likes
    • 6 Post By Valis1
    • 1 Post By hal42
    • 1 Post By AndresLD
    • 1 Post By Valis1

    Thread: Lucid dreaming, meditation, Neuroscience

    1. #1
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV Created Dream Journal Tagger Second Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      Valis1's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      LD Count
      unknown
      Gender
      Posts
      195
      Likes
      129
      DJ Entries
      9

      Lucid dreaming, meditation, Neuroscience

      There is a good deal of discussion about Lucid dreaming and meditation, I just wanted to consolidate a few pieces a information on the subject I have come across. I have talked about the overlap between meditation and lucid dreaming before, in particular that meditation strengthens and complexifies neural regions responsible for lucid dreaming. I think this is especially important in reference to people who are interested in the potential for development in these areas, to open access to new levels and types of experience.

      Doing some general searches I have found several interesting articles. The first being on sciencealert.com. This states that "what they found was that participants who were highly lucid during dreams had larger anterior prefrontal cortexes, which is the region of the brain that controls conscious cognitive processes and plays an important role in our ability to self reflect."

      It has been known for some time that meditation activates this region and others associated with meta-cognition. And over a period of time the presence of these states cause physical changes in the brain, the reoccurring presence of the meditative state eventually will cause long term structural changes, causing a up grading effect, allowing for great efficiency in its functions. I have thought of it in computer terms, I consider the brain a self-evolving computer, when one first downloads new software like the meditative or LD state, it does not run anywhere as well as it could, but if you keep playing the program over and over, if the brain thinks it is important, it will renovate the structures responsible for it, to better uphold the program. What once in the beginning was a novel state pattern becomes over a period of time a inherent, habitual, automatic, and ingrained characteristic of the brain-mind synergy.

      The second article is from wikipedia it says "Recent studies have shown heightened activity in the anterior cingulate cortex, frontal cortex, and prefrontal cortex, specifically in the dorsal medial prefrontal area during Vipassana meditation." This has built on what I said above and validated what people have known or suspected for a long time, especially most schools of meditation, a connection has been known in Buddhism between the two states for nearly 2000 years, the earliest records emerging from somewhere around what is now modern day Iraq.

      This next article is from mindful.org
      "Increased Grey Matter/Cortical Thickness in the following key areas:

      • Anterior Cingulate Cortex: Increased grey matter changes were noted in the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC), which is a structure located behind the brain’s frontal lobe. It has been associated with such functions as self-regulatory processes, including the ability to monitor attention conflicts, and allow for more cognitive flexibility.

      • Prefrontal Cortex: Increased grey matter density was also found in areas of the prefrontal lobe, which are primarily responsible for executive functioning such as planning, problem solving, and emotion regulation.

      • Hippocampus: Increased cortical thickness in the hippocampus has also been noted. The hippocampus is the part of the limbic system that governs learning and memory, and is extraordinarily susceptible to stress and stress-related disorders like depression or PTSD."

      This just restated what I said above about long term structural changes, but I felt I should put this in to round out my theory with more sources. This article is from newsroom.ucla.edu/ . One more thing I thought I would mention, that meditation has been found to produce.

      "Eileen Luders, an assistant professor at the UCLA Laboratory of Neuro Imaging, and colleagues, have found that long-term meditators have larger amounts of gyrification (“folding” of the cortex, which may allow the brain to process information faster) than people who do not meditate."

      “The insula has been suggested to function as a hub for autonomic, affective and cognitive integration,” said Luders. “Meditators are known to be masters in introspection and awareness as well as emotional control and self-regulation, so the findings make sense that the longer someone has meditated, the higher the degree of folding in the insula.”

      In conclusion, the meditative and lucid dream state heavily overlap and influence each other. They are associated with and use many of the same brain systems, they share common ground. I have come to call them 'synthesis states', what this means is that they are mutually beneficial, they share common points of activity, when one develops via neural complexification so does the other as a result of their shared foundations. The stronger these higher meta cognitive or frontal regions become through meditation or otherwise, the more easily accessible their functions become, like self awareness, self regulation, memory access. One can thus more easily connect to these functions while dreaming, or at any time. There has been some confusion on these points in the past so I thought I would add my conclusions into the mix to facilitate better understanding for those who are interested or confused about the relation between these two interesting states and how they may overlap.

      Thank you for your attention, if anyone has anything to add, article or theory, I would enjoy your perspective.
      Last edited by Valis1; 07-17-2016 at 04:59 PM.

    2. #2
      Member Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze 1000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      AstralMango's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2013
      Gender
      Location
      Present
      Posts
      821
      Likes
      1011
      This is great! Thanks for sharing.

    3. #3
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV Created Dream Journal Tagger Second Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      Valis1's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      LD Count
      unknown
      Gender
      Posts
      195
      Likes
      129
      DJ Entries
      9
      Your very welcome

    4. #4
      Lurker Achievements:
      1 year registered

      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      Gender
      Posts
      4
      Likes
      2
      I think it should be interesting to make the difference between open monitor (without an object, like the vipassana) and focused attention (with object) meditation. The funny thing is that while in the FA there's usually more activation in attention related zones (like prefrontal cortex), expertes OM meditators usually has a decrease in activity in that zone, thing that usually in neuroscience means a better integrated function.
      Here you find the article Attention regulation and monitoring in meditation. - PubMed - NCBI
      I did a research on the subject for a paper in a class and there was a really interesting article by Farb et al Attending to the present: mindfulness meditation reveals distinct neural modes of self-reference
      Here they talk about the differences between the neural network implied in the narrative self (substantially the self built within memories and experience that act as a "liant" in everyday life) and the experimental focus (centered on the present) attended in meditation.
      I don't really know how this could link with LD in matter of cerebral activation, i think that in that case it's interesting to look at the synchronous activity happening in the brain (the so called brain waves). For exemple they correlate with gamma activity, the same found in meditation and can also be evoked by stimulating the brain at this frequencies (25-40 Hz) during rem sleep.
      http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...l/nn.3719.html (only abstract available )

      Hope i gave you new fun readings
      Valis1 likes this.

    5. #5
      Member Achievements:
      5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal
      AndresLD's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2009
      LD Count
      158
      Gender
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      1,088
      Likes
      253
      DJ Entries
      97
      Great summary of your findings Valis. I specially find the anatomical areas correlation between the two rather fascinating. I am starting a Master Degree in Physical Therapy this week, and the first month is an intensive Anatomy course, so I will try and pay extra attention to the brain areas .
      Everyone who is into lucid dreaming has stumbled upon the topic of meditation at least once. I have tried to read more into it for a while and possibly even try it myself, but I always run into the problem that there is so much information out there that I don't know where to begin. If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them!
      Thanks again
      Valis1 likes this.
      Spoiler for Goals:

    6. #6
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV Created Dream Journal Tagger Second Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      Valis1's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      LD Count
      unknown
      Gender
      Posts
      195
      Likes
      129
      DJ Entries
      9
      Thank you for your interest.

      Here are some books I have found very helpful. I know the large amount of books out there can make things seem complicated. What is most important is to find a method you like and practice it consistently every single day. The mental resistance people come across when trying to control or pacify their minds discourages them from continuing, but no one said it would be easy. Over time things get much easier, but it does take some discipline to reach that point, sadly many give up trying to pacify their minds as a lost cause before it has time to stabilise. But if there is one thing one should apply oneself toward it must surely be training the mind/brain to uphold desirable states of consciousness and break the cycle of negative emotions which are the source of so much needless suffering.

      The Mind Illuminated: A Complete Meditation Guide Integrating Buddhist Wisdom and Brain Science- by Culadasa (John Yates), Matthew Immergut

      Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind- by Shunryu Suzuki and David Chadwick

      Mind at Ease: Self-Liberation through Mahamudra Meditation- by Traleg Kyabgon

      Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintessence of Mind and Meditation- by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
      Last edited by Valis1; 08-02-2016 at 05:46 AM. Reason: Adding information
      "Parable.- Those thinkers in whom all stars move in cyclic orbits are not the most profound: whoever looks into himself as into vast space and carries galaxies in himself also knows how irregular all galaxies are; they lead into the chaos and labyrinth of existence."- Friedrich Nietzsche, the gay science, First published in 1882 revised in 1887, translated by Walter Kaufmann [/SIGPIC]

    7. #7
      Member Achievements:
      5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal
      AndresLD's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2009
      LD Count
      158
      Gender
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      1,088
      Likes
      253
      DJ Entries
      97
      Thanks for compiling that list of books. I will read thorough some reviews and make my decision of which to begin with . I should be able to get reading at the end of the month. If you have any suggestions of which one to begin with I'm all ears!
      Spoiler for Goals:

    8. #8
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV Created Dream Journal Tagger Second Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      Valis1's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      LD Count
      unknown
      Gender
      Posts
      195
      Likes
      129
      DJ Entries
      9
      The Mind Illuminated: A Complete Meditation Guide Integrating Buddhist Wisdom and Brain Science

      is the most comprehensive and easy to understand. It is broken down into stages which helps as you progress and it is written in clear language. Also it contains some interesting neuroscience information. So I think you should start with that one.
      AndresLD likes this.
      "Parable.- Those thinkers in whom all stars move in cyclic orbits are not the most profound: whoever looks into himself as into vast space and carries galaxies in himself also knows how irregular all galaxies are; they lead into the chaos and labyrinth of existence."- Friedrich Nietzsche, the gay science, First published in 1882 revised in 1887, translated by Walter Kaufmann [/SIGPIC]

    9. #9
      Member Achievements:
      5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal
      AndresLD's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2009
      LD Count
      158
      Gender
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      1,088
      Likes
      253
      DJ Entries
      97
      Great, I will start with that one. Thanks!
      Spoiler for Goals:

    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 1
      Last Post: 11-29-2015, 03:36 AM
    2. Replies: 3
      Last Post: 01-03-2013, 05:36 AM
    3. Meditation and Lucid Dreaming
      By Goldy in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 10
      Last Post: 11-04-2008, 11:48 PM
    4. Zen Meditation While Lucid Dreaming..
      By Lord of the Flies in forum Lucid Experiences
      Replies: 4
      Last Post: 09-30-2006, 09:02 PM
    5. 3rd eye meditation and lucid dreaming
      By Jumpy in forum Attaining Lucidity
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 03-10-2005, 05:38 PM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •