Thread: Age and Lucidity

Lenscaper, I was just rereading your original post on this topic....

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I am 67 years old....a young 67, though.

I stumbled into lucid dreaming three weeks ago when a pretty incongruous event in a somewhat threatening dream caused me to say, "Wait....this is a dream!" I was able to change the circumstances and deal with the issue at hand and I woke up profoundly amazed.

Amazing experience! Did you even know the term "lucid dream" when that happened to you?

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Since then things have happened very quickly....it's a bit like an ember falling on a dry brush pile. In these last three weeks I have searched out every bit of info I can find on this amazing thing called lucid dreaming and I have immersed myself in "lucidity training". I have said those same words in three different dreams in that time. Almost all of my dreams seem to now have some degree of lucidity and I feel it having a very interesting effect on my life in general.

Sounds like you're a natural LDing person! That's so great!

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Any other old folks out there that can relate to this?

I can, except I was only 5-10 years old when I had a spontaneous LD that was similar to your experience, including the threatening aspect. A bee was chasing me. Suddenly I realized it was a dream, so I stopped, looked at the bee, and told it to go ahead and sting me. It just flew away in disgust. I was amazed at the idea of being able to realize I was dreaming during a dream, but at that young age I didn't know what to do with it. However, I never forgot about it. As an adult, I eventually got into LDing. Mostly I found that supplements worked best for me. (Galantamine, choline bitartrate, theanine, nicotine, etc.)

Originally Posted by lenscaper

How does age affect the ability to experience lucid dreams as a beginner?

I'm now almost 64. I'm not a beginner, but also don't consider myself to be an expert. Anyway, as I got older, I gradually got to the point where LD supplements usually gave me insomnia. So I pretty much stopped using them for the last 10 or 15 years.

Then late last year I was discussing LD supplements with someone on another forum (Deep Dreaming). He mentioned the idea of using extended-release supplements. I thought they might be worth a try, because they might not give me insomnia. Unfortunately there's no such thing as extended-release LD supplements. At least I couldn't find any. However, in searching for them, I found something even better: empty delayed-release capsules that can be filled with whatever supplement you want. I ordered some online. It turns out they work perfectly! So now I'm using LD supplements regularly, without them causing any insomnia. Basically the delayed-release capsules provide enough time for me to get to sleep before the effects of the supplements kick in.

Originally Posted by Zthread

Did you even know the term "lucid dream" when that happened to you?

Hey, Zthread......

That's a cool story about the bee.....very similar to my first experience.

I had never heard of lucid dreaming when that happened. My eyes were opened wide that next day when I stumbled on the term and realized that I could actually train myself in this discipline. To say that I immersed myself in all things lucid would be a bit of an understatement.

I don't consider myself to be a natural lucid dreamer but now, in retrospect, I see that I have always had pretty clear dreams that may have, at times, even been lucid. Throughout my adult life I have trained and practiced in other disciplines that seem to have prepared me for this wonderful lucid journey. I have practiced and taught T'ai Chi for many, many years and I trained in the Japanese martial art of Aikido for many years before becoming Sensei. Those disciplines taught me to overcome distractions and abide in an aware state of mind a lot, which has been helpful if attaining lucidity.

I have not tried any supplements. I want to achieve a natural state of lucidity that can be incorporated into my life. These days I have begun to realize that I need to work toward being able to achieve dream lucidity spontaneously because I just don't have enough time in the night to deploy the techniques I have learned and still get the sleep that I need to be sharp in the morning and at work.

To that end I have really ramped up my daytime practice. If I can achieve a state of pure presence as much as possible during my work day, I will achieve that naturally in my dreams and that will allow me to cut through the fantasies and illusions of those dreams right away and achieve lucidity spontaneously. It's starting to work.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Hey, Zthread......

That's a cool story about the bee.....very similar to my first experience.

What happened in your first experience, if you don't mind my asking? (No problem at all if you do mind!)

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I had never heard of lucid dreaming when that happened. My eyes were opened wide that next day when I stumbled on the term and realized that I could actually train myself in this discipline. To say that I immersed myself in all things lucid would be a bit of an understatement.

That's great!

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I don't consider myself to be a natural lucid dreamer but now, in retrospect, I see that I have always had pretty clear dreams that may have, at times, even been lucid. Throughout my adult life I have trained and practiced in other disciplines that seem to have prepared me for this wonderful lucid journey. I have practiced and taught T'ai Chi for many, many years and I trained in the Japanese martial art of Aikido for many years before becoming Sensei. Those disciplines taught me to overcome distractions and abide in an aware state of mind a lot, which has been helpful if attaining lucidity.

Yes, I imagine that kind of training would help a lot!

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I have not tried any supplements. I want to achieve a natural state of lucidity that can be incorporated into my life. These days I have begun to realize that I need to work toward being able to achieve dream lucidity spontaneously because I just don't have enough time in the night to deploy the techniques I have learned and still get the sleep that I need to be sharp in the morning and at work.

I like the idea of just having LDs spontaneously in that way.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

To that end I have really ramped up my daytime practice. If I can achieve a state of pure presence as much as possible during my work day, I will achieve that naturally in my dreams and that will allow me to cut through the fantasies and illusions of those dreams right away and achieve lucidity spontaneously. It's starting to work.

Wow! Really great!!

Originally Posted by Zthread

What happened in your first experience, if you don't mind my asking? (No problem at all if you do mind!)

It was the night of February 5, this year, and I still remember it as if it was last night. I was floating down a small river in a red canoe when just in front of me, where the river narrowed between two outcroppings, a huge hippopotamus rose up slowly from the river. I still remember how the river water streamed off its dark grey back. The hippo spoke to me in a woman's voice but I do not recall the words. Instead of crashing into the hippo, I suddenly leaped from the canoe and flew to the top of the raised riverbank that had been on my left. I stood at the top of that riverbank and looked out over an expansive grassy field realizing that I was fully conscious of being in a dream.....before waking up, of course.

The next morning I researched "awake in a dream" and the first article mentioned lucid dreaming.....I was off and running. That hippo dream became my first dream journal entry. Looking back now at those early entries I am reminded that I went after WBTB and WILD right away. My WILD attempts were sloppy but they yielded immediate results. On 2/6 I had an OBE after 2 hours of HI where my dream arms reached out of my body to grab one of the colored HI blobs and pull it back in before it drifted off. The next night I fell asleep during another long period of HI and did my first clumsy flight. On 2/9 I had a most profound LD after again falling asleep during HI where I entered the dream high in the air over a beautiful stream. I flew down to that stream and walked up through the water to a sandy spit of land where I sat and just watched the stream flow by. The next night I had the exact same dream. This time instead of sitting down on the shore, I waded out into the stream and laid down on the bottom where I looked up through the water at the blue sky and breathed in the water.

Anyway, that's how it all started for me..........thanks for asking about it.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

It was the night of February 5, this year, and I still remember it as if it was last night. I was floating down a small river in a red canoe when just in front of me, where the river narrowed between two outcroppings, a huge hippopotamus rose up slowly from the river. I still remember how the river water streamed off its dark grey back. The hippo spoke to me in a woman's voice but I do not recall the words. Instead of crashing into the hippo, I suddenly leaped from the canoe and flew to the top of the raised riverbank that had been on my left. I stood at the top of that riverbank and looked out over an expansive grassy field realizing that I was fully conscious of being in a dream.....before waking up, of course.

Wow! Beautiful dream! Wonder what the hippo said, though!

Originally Posted by lenscaper

The next morning I researched "awake in a dream" and the first article mentioned lucid dreaming.....I was off and running. That hippo dream became my first dream journal entry. Looking back now at those early entries I am reminded that I went after WBTB and WILD right away. My WILD attempts were sloppy but they yielded immediate results.

Amazing you had such fast results!

Originally Posted by lenscaper

On 2/6 I had an OBE after 2 hours of HI where my dream arms reached out of my body to grab one of the colored HI blobs and pull it back in before it drifted off.

Grabbing HI! That's something I've never heard of before. I love HI, but never have thought of grabbing it. Might be a way to "pull" oneself into a dream.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

The next night I fell asleep during another long period of HI and did my first clumsy flight. On 2/9 I had a most profound LD after again falling asleep during HI where I entered the dream high in the air over a beautiful stream. I flew down to that stream and walked up through the water to a sandy spit of land where I sat and just watched the stream flow by. The next night I had the exact same dream. This time instead of sitting down on the shore, I waded out into the stream and laid down on the bottom where I looked up through the water at the blue sky and breathed in the water.

Great ones, also, especially so soon after discovering LDing. Nice idea to breath underwater while looking up through the water....

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Anyway, that's how it all started for me..........thanks for asking about it.

I'd have to say you're a natural LDer.

Originally Posted by Zthread

I'd have to say you're a natural LDer.

Hmmmmmm.....maybe......

The thing is, I don't do any of the things that most folks here do when I am lucid. I don't go looking for adventure........no long flights of fancy, no sex with movie stars or journeys to the center of the earth. Instead I just attend to what my subconscious runs by me. I attend to the dream as the dreamer, sometimes interacting, sometimes making subtle changes. When things go off the rails....and they occasionally do.....I take flight. When I find myself in a natural place with no DC's around me I immerse myself in that place.

I don't quite have the technique down to go anywhere I desire, and I'm not sure that I want to.....although I have been trying to go back to that stream again.

When i wake up from these LD's where I have been the lucid dreamer just observing the dream as it flows around me I always feel amazingly refreshed and alive. It is as if more of the weight of my past has been lifted and blown away forever.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Hmmmmmm.....maybe......

Or, maybe not!

Originally Posted by lenscaper

The thing is, I don't do any of the things that most folks here do when I am lucid. I don't go looking for adventure........no long flights of fancy, no sex with movie stars or journeys to the center of the earth. Instead I just attend to what my subconscious runs by me. I attend to the dream as the dreamer, sometimes interacting, sometimes making subtle changes. When things go off the rails....and they occasionally do.....I take flight. When I find myself in a natural place with no DC's around me I immerse myself in that place.

That's also my favorite way to do LDing. Because whatever my conscious mind comes up with, it's never as good what my subconscious creates. Here's a metaphor: When you get lucid, the dream becomes a dance between your conscious and subconscious minds. And your subconscious mind is a better dancer, so it's usually best to let it lead.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I don't quite have the technique down to go anywhere I desire, and I'm not sure that I want to.....although I have been trying to go back to that stream again.

Right. Why bother with such techniques? It's not necessary. As they say, you can never go back to the same stream, anyway.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

When i wake up from these LD's where I have been the lucid dreamer just observing the dream as it flows around me I always feel amazingly refreshed and alive. It is as if more of the weight of my past has been lifted and blown away forever.

Doesn't get much better than that!

Originally Posted by Zthread

I'd have to say you're a natural LDer.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

Hmmmmmm.....maybe......

No, Lenscaper, you are likely not a "natural" LD'er. And that, I think, is a good thing.

If you were a natural, then this thread wouldn't exist, because you would not have needed to learn anything, at all, about the process of becoming lucid, to search as actively as you did, because the process would have already been embedded in your psyche, naturally. Lucidity by now would be old hat for you (even a nuisance, possibly), because, if a natural, you would have been experiencing it, often without choice, for decades. But, in your case, I believe something way better than natural ability happened with you:

Your lifetime of activities that involve self-discipline and perhaps self-awareness certainly primed you to relatively easily achieve consistent LD'ing. Rather than having lucidity thrust upon you by your genes, you worked hard for your skills, and earned your current ability; revel in that fact, and don't belittle your work by calling yourself, or allowing yourself to be called, a natural.

The reason I say all this, and in such a condescending manner, is because I am pretty sure that natural lucidity is incredibly rare, if it exists at all, and the internet-fueled tradition of people calling people (or themselves) "naturals" has created a term that is wrong, counterproductive, and perhaps a bit damaging to novices. For instance, a dreamer struggling for success might come to believe that she must need some innate ability to have any success; with a convenient excuse for her failure, she gives up. Or, worse, folks who proclaim themselves naturals might fall into a state of delusion that prevents them from ever attaining the skills that will help them experience true lucidity consistently.

I could go on all day about this, but nobody wants that, so let me leave with some bullets:

* This is anecdotal, of course, but I have met or spoken with thousands of LDers over the years, and many of them are remarkably adept at LDing. But out of all those people, I ran into only one who could convince me that he was a natural. And, perhaps not ironically, I met him because he came on this forum looking for help to cure his natural ability; being awake all night, every night, for decades, was literally driving him nuts.

* The paradoxical nature of lucidity -- being awake while you are asleep -- runs anathema to pretty much every aspect of our natural sleep and dreaming processes, we are "naturally" programmed to not be lucid during dreams. So, perhaps aside from mental illness/persistent psychosis, our natural machinery is designed to combat lucidity, tamping it down whenever it may occur -- which may be why becoming consistently lucid is generally not easy, even with experienced LDers.

*That machinery does fail now and then: I believe that all people have moments of lucidity in their dreams sometime in their lives (just as they do in waking-life), and your mindset might have caused that failure a bit more often than normal, but that is very different from naturally being able to induce lucidity on demand, or have it induced for you by accident, all night every night.

* Lucidity has nothing to do with clarity, or vividness. It is about the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream; nothing more, nothing less. Some of my most vivid, clear dreams were NLD's, while some of my most lucid moments were in a blurry mess -- and vise-versa.

tl;dr: Take credit for a life's work, self-awareness speaking, that led you to LD'ing in the first place, and take credit for your tireless effort this year to make LD'ing a part of your life -- those are far more impressive than being a so-called "natural," by any measure.

Old guy rant over; now back to your regularly-scheduled program.





.

Originally Posted by Sageous

No, Lenscaper, you are likely not a "natural" LD'er. And that, I think, is a good thing.

If you were a natural, then this thread wouldn't exist, because you would not have needed to learn anything, at all, about the process of becoming lucid, to search as actively as you did, because the process would have already been embedded in your psyche, naturally. Lucidity by now would be old hat for you (even a nuisance, possibly), because, if a natural, you would have been experiencing it, often without choice, for decades.

I've often thought that if most of our dreams were LDs, people would work on techniques to induce non-LDs.

Originally Posted by Sageous

But, in your case, I believe something way better than natural ability happened with you:

Your lifetime of activities that involve self-discipline and perhaps self-awareness certainly primed you to relatively easily achieve consistent LD'ing. Rather than having lucidity thrust upon you by your genes, you worked hard for your skills, and earned your current ability; revel in that fact, and don't belittle your work by calling yourself, or allowing yourself to be called, a natural.

Great point.

Originally Posted by Sageous

The reason I say all this, and in such a condescending manner, is because I am pretty sure that natural lucidity is incredibly rare, if it exists at all, and the internet-fueled tradition of people calling people (or themselves) "naturals" has created a term that is wrong, counterproductive, and perhaps a bit damaging to novices. For instance, a dreamer struggling for success might come to believe that she must need some innate ability to have any success; with a convenient excuse for her failure, she gives up. Or, worse, folks who proclaim themselves naturals might fall into a state of delusion that prevents them from ever attaining the skills that will help them experience true lucidity consistently.

Yes, probably is quite rare. And could be damaging in various ways.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I could go on all day about this, but nobody wants that, so let me leave with some bullets:

* This is anecdotal, of course, but I have met or spoken with thousands of LDers over the years, and many of them are remarkably adept at LDing. But out of all those people, I ran into only one who could convince me that he was a natural. And, perhaps not ironically, I met him because he came on this forum looking for help to cure his natural ability; being awake all night, every night, for decades, was literally driving him nuts.

Wow! Also, during an LD, your sleep quality isn't as high, so wouldn't be surprised if someone who only--or mostly only--had LDs would be chronically sleep-deprived.

Originally Posted by Sageous

* The paradoxical nature of lucidity -- being awake while you are asleep -- runs anathema to pretty much every aspect of our natural sleep and dreaming processes, we are "naturally" programmed to not be lucid during dreams. So, perhaps aside from mental illness/persistent psychosis, our natural machinery is designed to combat lucidity, tamping it down whenever it may occur -- which may be why becoming consistently lucid is generally not easy, even with experienced LDers.

Right. Not easy, and likely not at all desirable or healthy.

Originally Posted by Sageous

*That machinery does fail now and then: I believe that all people have moments of lucidity in their dreams sometime in their lives (just as they do in waking-life), and your mindset might have caused that failure a bit more often than normal, but that is very different from naturally being able to induce lucidity on demand, or have it induced for you by accident, all night every night.

True.

Originally Posted by Sageous

* Lucidity has nothing to do with clarity, or vividness. It is about the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream; nothing more, nothing less. Some of my most vivid, clear dreams were NLD's, while some of my most lucid moments were in a blurry mess -- and vise-versa.

Also the most intriguing things often happen in NLDs, not LDs.

Originally Posted by Sageous

tl;dr: Take credit for a life's work, self-awareness speaking, that led you to LD'ing in the first place, and take credit for your tireless effort this year to make LD'ing a part of your life -- those are far more impressive than being a so-called "natural," by any measure.

Old guy rant over; now back to your regularly-scheduled program.

Thought-provoking rant!