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    Thread: I wanna kick his butt...

    1. #1
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      I wanna kick his butt...

      Celebrities are very common projections in my dreams. But Iím having major issues with one of them (Iíll call him J). I like him in real life, heís a cool dude, but in dreams he is just awful. First question is, why tf is he so intent on making me miserable, while the others arenít?

      Now, I have this other celebrity friend who is the exact opposite (Iíll call him K). Heís one of my ďdream anchorsĒ to keep me lucid, and weíve had some pretty wild adventures together. Way nicer and more intelligent than J (even tho irl, J is a genius).

      But...K is mostly present in lucids. He usually doesnít play a big role in non-lucids. J is the opposite. In fact, Iíve never even seen him in a lucid. But he sure as hell loves to play main villain in a lot of my regular dreams.

      As my lucids are becoming more frequent (every freakin night), im getting more and more nervous about falling asleep. Iím usually not very good at controlling my dreams, so I let K take the lead, and I change some minor things along the way. But Iím afraid of losing him again and running into J. How can I be confident enough to fight him off? I know heíll show up eventually...

    2. #2
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      Hello Fruityowl,

      It's interesting that both J and K are celebrities and that you mentioned it (it seems like irrelevant information since they are your friends; not people you know because they are celebrities...) so maybe that's a point of interest. Maybe their celeb status impresses you a lot. It's just human and natural to seek higher status and to be surrounded by higher status people, and feel competitiveness and such things... Who knows which feelings if any are relevant here, but maybe that's a first line of inquiry. For example, "How does their status make me feel? Does it make me self-conscious? Does it make me feel envious? Do not judge yourself, just assess your feelings.

      What about your friends that are not celebs? What are their roles in your dreams?

      In my case, I have an insecurity that I take too much time from my friends so in my dreams, they are often in a rush to be somewhere. That's just an indicator of my insecurity in my case, not the reality.

      So maybe there's something about J that you admire... something that just makes you feel a bit more insecure than K... or other friends.

      About the second part, it's strange to me that having more lucid dreams makes you worry about something that is a pattern of non lucid dreams... About that, I'd just cross that bridge once you get to it. For now, enjoy those lucid dreams.

    3. #3
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      Celebrities? Do you mean Dream Characters? Dream characters are really about of you so, what ever you are negative about yourself it is showing up in your dreams. I wonder if you have internalized something that is currently going on in your life? Maybe a behavior flaw within yourself? Sometimes my dream characters, that are celebrities act in a role that I subconsciously put them in. Sometimes act like they are the villains but, that is only when I'm negative about something. (Example: I had a dream the other day, about getting into a fight with a DC that looked like Jeff Bridges.) I know that it isn't the DC's fault, it was probably something I internalized something negative about that actor and then expected that he would act that way towards me in the dream. Or Example: My dear friend in real life, Booth, in one dream, acted like he didn't even know me. It probably how you are perceive them.
      I know that we react negatively to a particular situation it sometimes triggers dreams like this were your dream characters will act this way?
      Perhaps you need to learn how to get past that. Perhaps, you may need to have a lucid goal to summon that villain and ask him why he is acting this way?
      Last edited by Lang; 05-20-2020 at 11:24 PM.
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      Thatís what Iím trying to do. Iím tryna lure J into a lucid with things he, strictly as a projection, likes (weapons, gangs, dangerous settings). Just to re-clarify, the real J is NOT like this at all. He is very much a decent and reasonable dude.

      But ever since Iíve been planning this ďtrapĒ, Iíve been struggling with attaining lucidity again, and now I canít carry it out :/ Very convenient...

    5. #5
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      Iím afraid of him being in a lucid, cause idk if Iíll be able to keep him under control, and my dreams, lucid or not, are usually very vivid. Iíd really rather not experience him realistically biting my arm with shark teeth :B

      When my friends/family appear in my dreams, they act pretty true to their character. Even K (the nice celebrity) acts realistic, aside from an ďidle wanderingĒ habit. J, however, is the exact opposite of the real person. What makes him so awful, is that heís a subconscious projection, so he knows all my insecurities.

      I think his tendency to chase me could be my anxiety over trying to hurry and graduate college before I turn 30. He also sometimes tries to lasso me with a chain, which could signify the trapped feeling I have. And lately heís also been bothering me about my asexuality, so now heís acting seductive, which to me is worse than his usual ďchase and tackleĒ hobby.

      I have no desire to be famous. I am, however, sometimes envious of how much heís accomplished at his young age, (and I really wish I could browse his wardrobe). I start thinking of things I can do that he probably canít. So in a sense Iím kind of competitive...? But at the same time I also think he would be a cool friend to have and I would never try to make him feel or look bad.

      Heís been really friendly in a couple dreams though. Iím not sure where that stemmed from. Maybe heís bipolar? Lol.
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    6. #6
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      Hey, I recommend that you check out Maxwell Hunter's work on YouTube, where he goes by TheRaRaRabbit. He is definitely doing some important work in regards to mental health and lucid dreaming. He does have a unique diagnosis and I suspect that the ways in which he finds lucid dreaming useful may be quite unique to him, considering Dissociative Identity Disorder is thought to be different aspects of one's personality expressed in different voices that speak to them. For him, it seems like speaking to these different personalities in dreams does allow him to understand the voices better and help him with mental health. I consider Max to be one of the exceptions to the rule of not trusting what your dreams tell you since his voices do have such well-formed personalities.
      Perhaps this may help you in a way to better understand yourself? And no, he is probably not bipolar because J is your subconscious.
      Maybe, If you start putting your energy on those good dreams where he is friendly perhaps you will have more of those good dreams.
      Last edited by Lang; 05-21-2020 at 07:39 AM.
      it's important to stay aware of your surroundings in both Dreaming and waking life, or you will miss the strange but, amazing things that happen around you. Like this:


    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fruityowl View Post
      I’m afraid of him being in a lucid, cause idk if I’ll be able to keep him under control, and my dreams, lucid or not, are usually very vivid. I’d really rather not experience him realistically biting my arm with shark teeth :B
      Damn, you got a Tom and Jerry friendship.

      (EDIT: not a friendship, but a relationship with the dream concept of him/ or of your insecurities)

      (EDIT: Now... maybe he's even just a familiar and comfortable form you are projecting all your insecurities onto, so he's really a "guardian angel" type guiding you through all your baggage with a friendly face)

      Quote Originally Posted by Fruityowl View Post
      I think his tendency to chase me could be my anxiety over trying to hurry and graduate college before I turn 30. He also sometimes tries to lasso me with a chain, which could signify the trapped feeling I have. And lately he’s also been bothering me about my asexuality, so now he’s acting seductive, which to me is worse than his usual “chase and tackle” hobby.

      I have no desire to be famous. I am, however, sometimes envious of how much he’s accomplished at his young age, (and I really wish I could browse his wardrobe). I start thinking of things I can do that he probably can’t. So in a sense I’m kind of competitive...? But at the same time I also think he would be a cool friend to have and I would never try to make him feel or look bad.
      This could be all of it. I think it's that simple.

      I think if you ask him why he's being evil, you won't get a sincere answer but one tainted by the randomness of the dream and your expectations. I think the real answer is what you said.

      Quote Originally Posted by Fruityowl View Post
      He’s been really friendly in a couple dreams though. I’m not sure where that stemmed from. Maybe he’s bipolar? Lol.
      haha, no not bipolar, like Lang said. Dream characters are just ideas of people, they are not people. So you can see patterns of what you associate with them. Clearly, J is someone you also associate with good vibes so that's that.
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    8. #8
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      There is no easy answers because he is a dream character that you subconsciously generated in your head. While it's a nice thought and certainly opens a philosophical can of worms, the most likely and sensible answer is that dream characters, as with everything else in the dream, are fleeing hallucinations and nothing more. Some of these issues like this sometimes takes a while to heal. I know as well as Occipitalred that you can do it. We believe in you.
      How are you doing with your Lucid dreaming? There is nothing to be scared of Lucid dreams, once you get a handle on becoming aware.
      Note: Lucid dreaming doesn't equal dream control. You must first have a handle on basic lucid dreams fundamentals, like basic awareness. Dream control should come after. Also, one thing that I have learned, is when it comes to doing dream control, it's not always as easy as people make it seem. You also, probably want to learn how to trust yourself.
      Do you think there is anyone your waking life that is acting this way? Perhaps someone who is a narcissist? There are times where your life will effect your dreams, especially, if you are dealing with something like this. In a way the dream character reminds me of someone who has the qualities of someone who may reflect someone with a Narcissist personality. Too be honest, I don't want give you false premise that dream characters have some kind of objective existence and self-awareness beyond the brief moment they appear for the dreamer.


      You still writing in your DJ? More than just a technique, a dream journal is a core component, a fundamental, of lucid dream practice. A dream journal acts as one's personal "map" of the dream world and is an indispensable tool that every lucid dreamer should posses. I would put down anything that you did before you went to bed, include how you feel before you went to bed or what happen during the day.
      What kind of Reality checks are you doing? Note: no Reality Test will To date, there is no "perfect" test and each has the potential to fail: giving false results. You should have one have more than one kind of Reality check or test. You should be Perform a minimum of 10 reality checks each day, ideally many more. Reality testing should become a natural default behavior, performed daily, for the duration of your life as a lucid dreamer.
      Reality checks or Reality Test are not optional, without them you will miss potentially thousands of possible lucid dreams. They are an act that reflects the core philosophy of lucid dreaming.
      There will always be a meaning behind your dreams and their players, if you let them have meaning because we are all unique human beings. Your dreams are a journey through the landscape of your mind. It's a unique state where all your thoughts, wishes, emotions, and memories become imbued with the spark of life-transforming them into a vast inner universe. So, rather than considering your dreams as a letter containing an important message, written in a secret language that needs to be decoded. Instead, it's better to think of them as a form of freestyle hallucinatory poetry. This is where you are free to analyze these poems if you wish and you are likely to assign meaning to it but, equally, you could just simply enjoy creating artwork that it is. I highly recommend you do both. Just don't blend the line between what is a dream and what is reality. Know the difference between the two.
      How do you feel when you have some of your dreams? Did they tell you if what your dreams mean? The meaning could solely be in how you feel in the dream or not. Sorry, if I sound like a shrink...

      Edit: Having some much trouble with my computer.... That sorry if things seem bad?
      Last edited by Lang; 05-22-2020 at 07:46 PM.
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    9. #9
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      Yeah I know everyone is just a projection. But kind of like an individual person, I canít control what he does.

      I have a very pretty extensive dream journal. Sometimes I even write in the middle of the night. Iíve been forgetting reality checks recently (hand through palm, reading signs, checking time, etc.)

      You asked how I felt in dreams? In lucids I feel curious and optimistic most of the time, but sometimes I get frustrated when something doesnít work. Iíve been developing this habit of imagining a person or object behind a door, and when I open the door, itís usually there. Thatís my extent of ďdream controlĒ.

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      Iíve actually started thinking of asking him ďIs there something you want to tell me?Ē Iím interested in seeing what my subconscious will say lol. That is, if J doesnít pounce on me at first sight (which is typical of him in regular dreams).

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      Quote Originally Posted by Fruityowl View Post
      Yeah I know everyone is just a projection. But kind of like an individual person, I canít control what he does.
      I think when you say "I can't control what he does," it's in the same sense as you could say "I can't control my thoughts"

      You know, how thoughts come up out of their own volition and trying to repress them is strenuous. It's a funny paradox how our thoughts are OUR thoughts (connection), they are us ("I think, therefore I am"), but they are also separate "you are not your thoughts" and you can actually play with this concept by meditating and observing your thoughts (as the observer, not the thinker).

      In that sense, when you say you don't control J, it's valid, because there is a separation between "you" and your psychological processes. But, there is also a strong connection since it belongs to your psyche.

      So, I think you do understand, but it's a fun opportunity to play with this paradox. Also, I think it's much better to think of dream characters as symbols than as people. When you learn something about this symbol, don't use it to predict what this symbol "will do." Instead, use what you learn about this symbol to learn about your cognitive and emotional patterns. In dreams, you learn about yourself, not about someone called J.

      Sorry if I'm just repeating. It's just, the nuances are what's important here.

      Quote Originally Posted by Fruityowl View Post
      Iíve actually started thinking of asking him ďIs there something you want to tell me?Ē Iím interested in seeing what my subconscious will say lol. That is, if J doesnít pounce on me at first sight (which is typical of him in regular dreams).
      If you ask the J character in your dream "is there something you want to tell me?"... yes, go ahead and do it. (remember: you are not talking to a person. You are communicating with a symbol in your mind with no agency of its own) Yes, you said you understand this, but it's so subtle and it's so important to distinguish the difference. If you treat your DCs like people, they will act as expected. They will respond as if they were real people (wise and with insight if you think they are the subconscious). It might create the illusion of meaningfulness. And then you might give it too much importance or wonder for too long why the sentence did not make sense? Where's the meaning?

      What I am saying is 1. it's a symbol 2. After the dream, a bit later, judge whether the answer has any meaning to you. The answer might be yes or no.

      But I suggest you something else. What about active imagination. Just lay down. Maybe use some music and just daydream. Daydream about the dream with J, play out a scenario, and go ahead ask him. Collaborate. Communicate. Fight. Win. Lose. Play with the scenarios, see how it feels, see what you learn.
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 05-24-2020 at 02:26 AM.

    12. #12
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      So my brain turned on itself. Last night, I had an almost lucid dream. I made a plan to engage with everything, touch walls and objects, etc. I did all that but without realizing I was dreaming. The dream just got increasingly vivid.

      But the weirdest thing happened: K and J switched! K was mad at me for something, while J was nice (heís been nice a few times, but K has NEVER been angry or mean). Also, this is the first time both of them have been in the same dream...TWICE. I had two dreams with both of them present.

      K refused to talk to me, and he got up and left. J stuck around for a while, but he was being dumb, so I couldnít ask him anything. Thatís my other problem with J though, is that heís kinda ditsy.

      Now Iím wondering why the sudden change in ďattitudesĒ, and why K acts so upset. (I know they are dream symbols/characters, but itís just easier for me to explain by personifying them). Did my subconscious get confused?

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fruityowl View Post
      I know they are dream symbols/characters, but it’s just easier for me to explain by personifying them.
      That makes sense. It's the same for me. (In turn, this simplification does stray me away at times...)

      I think the situation here is much like this here:
      ______________________________________

      Let's say in your dreams, you often see a heart symbol which correlates with feelings of love. You also often see tear drops and you always feel so much sadness you sob uncontrollably. Now with these dreams, you think heart symbols are associated with love and tear drop symbols with sadness. You say, I hope I never dream about tear drops, because it's always so sad.

      But now you have other dreams...
      A dream with a heart symbol but it's a heartbreak dream. And a dream where there are tears but you are not crying out of sadness but out of joy.

      See you thought Heart -> Love -> Good ; and Tear -> Sadness --> Bad
      But symbols are not so precise. They symbolize vague ideas which can be multifaceted, good and bad.
      Heart -> feelings of love or heartbreak, etc...
      Tear drop -> overwhelming emotion, good or bad, etc...
      ______________________________________

      J and K are not fixed symbols in your mind. They are flexible. Do not think of them as having "always" and "never" behaviors. First of all, we don't remember half our dreams. How are J and K behaving then? You only have some of the data points. So you can only say I have observed this pattern with x symbol. Now, I've noticed a new pattern. Don't give so much meaning to these patterns unless they are frequent and feel meaningful to real life situations.

      Here's some questions I invite you to ask yourself:
      1. Do J and K make you feel subtle negative emotions once in a while. ex. unconsciously perhaps induce the thought "I wish I was more serious with my goals, I wish I was accomplishing more" or "do they like me as a friend or am I clingy"
      2. If you find out what it is, it won't necessarily change the dream because it just is the way things are. You feel that way (whichever way you feel). Once you're aware of it, you can just
      3. observe it without judgement (without deciding whether it's bad or good to feel this way, just notice how natural it is to feel this way). Then,
      4. is it meaningful for you to think this way? If, for example, you have a feeling of "I envy how much they accomplished," you might ask yourself, what is the meaning of that feeling for me? Maybe I appreciate that it taunts me to be a bit more competitive and motivate me to be as accomplished. When I feel this feeling, I also want to focus on "what are my goals?" and "what are steps I could make toward those goals."
      5. Then you can have this new intention during your dreams that match your real life intention of focusing on this competitive feeling in a healthy way: so now in the dream when J or K comes and taunts you, say "I take the challenge. Here are my goals. Here's what I'm gonna do. Let's play!" then, you can compete by accomplishing these goals or by taking part in whichever battle you happen to be in during the dream.

      You can't fix things in the dream. You need to bring change in real life for it to be reflected in your dreams. You can practice strategies in your dream, only if you are practicing an analogous strategy in real life.
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 05-24-2020 at 05:22 AM.

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