Secret Passage?

**ion** · 01-12-2007 05:43 AM

This post is long so I will state my objective first -- I believe there is an inner eye within the dream body and can be used to perceive the more true nature of a dream, or to even enter a different world. Be warned though, it is very difficult to achieve because you risk waking up from the dream. I've lost count on how many times I abruptly ended my precious LDs this way and totally regreted in the morning. Of course you may be a lot better than I am with LD control. Thus is the purpose of this post -- to invite the EXPERIENCED LDers on this board to try this and share with us your findings.

THE SECRET PASSAGE

I’m new to the forum, but I’ve had naturally occurring LDs since I was a child, and I have practiced spiritual cultivations of some Buddhism variations for many years. A recent LD prompted me to write this, because I feel there is certain significance in it and would like to share with you – if you are interested in more than acting out your fantasies in your LDs. I apologize for the lengthy content of this post, but I find no other ways to streamline it further.

I'll start with a special LD I had more than ten years ago –

It began as a normal LD. I was slowly hovering above the ground, admiring the dreamscape. It was beautiful – mountains, forests, waterfalls, Chinese gazebos, and beautiful women dressed in ancient Chinese outfits. The visual details were amazing. Then I thought – assuming this is the creation of my own brain, how come I feel so detached from it? I felt my own existence (ego) was very WHOLESOME and SOLID, unlike the somewhat PARTIAL and FRAGILE “self” in the more typical LDs. Logics and reasoning were every bit as good as in waked times. Could I be in a different world other than making it up through my own brain?

I entered into an even more lucid state – it felt at least as lucid as in day times, if not more. Suddenly I detected the existence of an “Eye” within my dream body – throughout the course of the LD it was shut, but at this point I realized what I was seeing was not REAL and I had to perceive the world with the inner eye instead. Seeing through the inner eye seemed a delicate action because it seemed to require me to become even more lucid and I was on the verge of waking up. As I saw through the inner eye, the entire dreamscape vanished. I was floating in a vast and majestic space. Words are ineffective – as I “watched”, it occurred to me that LANGUAGE is not the proper tool to describe this because the underlying CONCEPT is completely different. The only similar concept I could identify is color – the world was covered with a vibrant, translucent purple tone. The world was calm but very fluid beneath the surface, and I had the revelation that what we typically see (the more comprehensible stuff) in LDs were all manifestations of this fluid movement.

I was in awe. Meanwhile, I felt “soaked” with a heavenly joy never experienced before. I cannot describe the feeling because either that sensation had diminished after I woke up, or was simply too other-worldly. However, I do remember exactly what I thought. “This is why people want enlightenment”, I said to myself. The things I was so attached to, such as fame, wealth, family, and sex, all of a sudden became irrelevant and I understood perfectly why we were asked to give up on these “attachments” in Buddhist cultivation systems. Because at this state, you really don’t care for any of those! I started to prey, “Please, let me stay in this world! I don’t want to go back!” Unfortunately, at this point I started to have fear – fear for returning to my world. That immediately caused me to lose lucidity and soon I was having normal lucid dreams chained one after another.

This experience forever changed the way I handle my LDs. Every time I’d try to achieve the same state, but always failed miserably because it required me to become so conscious I’d simply wake up… until two weeks ago --

I was standing with my wife in a breathtakingly beautiful multi-colored crystal room. Soon as I stepped outside I became lucid and immediately went back to the room. I told my wife to not move and that we were in a dream. I levitated myself to prove that I’m indeed dreaming, and then I did some small tricks such as helping my wife to fly in order to stabilize the dream. As the dream stabilized I set out to experiment again. I had no problem locating the inner eye, and gradually opened it while slowly raising the level of lucidity. The dreamscape disappeared just like it did in the first dream, but suddenly a weird scene emerged – the “white” substance and the “black” substance twirled and merged into one! Sorry for the arcane description here, but again no words could describe what it really was. It seemed that as the world disappeared, it turned into two fundamental substances; one is black and the other white. I could not tell whether they had shapes because they were everywhere and I was in the middle of them. Now I think about it, it probably felt like as if I was standing in the middle of a huge Yin and Yang symbol, except that the symbol is as large as an universe and not least a flat one. As they merged, I caught a glimpse of a small window, possibly created at the intersection of the two moving substances. Through the window I saw the same world I had experienced in my previous dream. I was very excited and overjoyed. But this feeling of excitement probably worked the same way as fear, which should also be considered as “attachment” in Buddhist terms, which had an adverse effect. The window, instead of expanding, immediately started to shrink. I grew more anxious and decided I’d run through it. I was not quick enough, and was met by a forceful explosion, created at the final moment when the BLACK and WHITE merged completely. I was smashed so hard I could feel my dream body got thrown afar. The impact transcended through the dream and more curiously, it caused me to bounce physically, with both my feet lifting off the bed and perhaps even my back was lifted off by an inch or so. Of course I woke up, and clearly felt the fading sensation of the explosion, INSIDE my stomach.

According to some Buddhism, Bardo is a stage between death and birth. Some refer to dream also as Bardo stage. Some cultivation methods suggest that at the Bardo stage one has the chance to reach a higher level of existence. However, the Bardo world is a chaotic one, and a cultivator must learn to stay conscious and find her way out. This does sound like lucid dreaming, doesn’t it? Except that the Bardo after death is a lot more confusing and complicated than our dreams. I used to think the Bardo is a stage of “consciousness”, in other word it exists within us. However, these dreams seem to suggest otherwise. It does feel like entering a different and seperate world, not one that’s a creation of our own mind.

This article is by no means academic, and I’m not trying to reach any sort of conclusions here. I merely want to share the experience, and hopefully provide some fruit for thoughts. I’m very interested to hear from those of you who have experienced similar things.

**Ne-yo** · 01-12-2007 05:53 AM

Very interesting stuff.

Welcome to DV's c ya around.

**ion** · 01-12-2007 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ne

Very interesting stuff.

Welcome to DV's c ya around.
[/b]

Thank you my friend! I am convinced there is a lot more to LD than just manipulating our own illusions, and I hope to see more reports on similar experiences.

Very cool signature, BTW!

**GarethAyres** · 01-12-2007 12:34 PM

I was standing with my wife in a breathtakingly beautiful multi-colored crystal room. Soon as I stepped outside I became lucid and immediately went back to the room. I told my wife to not move and that we were in a dream. [/b]

So does your wife remember being with you in the dream?

Gareth.

**ion** · 01-12-2007 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by GarethAyres

So does your wife remember being with you in the dream?

Gareth.
[/b]

She does not. She has been in my LDs numerous times, and I always asked her the same question in the morning, and always got the same answer. I tend to believe there is no real connections between the DC wife and the real one (man that sounds weird

). Recall what I described in the first dream -- the world was made of a strange material that is both still (on surface) and fluid (beneath). This material seems to be the basis of what we perceive as realty during an LD. Now I think about it, it is probably able to reflect our own conscious/subconscious; thus, without using the inner eye, we are tricked to perceive the reflection as the real thing instead of what's underneath. The material is also very fluid, and I suspect that contributes to the random/chaotic nature of our dreams.

**Gwendolyn** · 01-12-2007 10:30 PM

Interesting. Your obviously a talented LDer.

**DarkMind** · 01-21-2007 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by ion

This post is long so I will state my objective first -- I believe there is an inner eye within the dream body and can be used to perceive the more true nature of a dream, or to even enter a different world. Be warned though, it is very difficult to achieve because you risk waking up from the dream. I've lost count on how many times I abruptly ended my precious LDs this way and totally regreted in the morning. Of course you may be a lot better than I am with LD control. Thus is the purpose of this post -- to invite the EXPERIENCED LDers on this board to try this and share with us your findings.

According to some Buddhism, Bardo is a stage between death and birth. Some refer to dream also as Bardo stage. Some cultivation methods suggest that at the Bardo stage one has the chance to reach a higher level of existence. However, the Bardo world is a chaotic one, and a cultivator must learn to stay conscious and find her way out. This does sound like lucid dreaming, doesn’t it? Except that the Bardo after death is a lot more confusing and complicated than our dreams. I used to think the Bardo is a stage of “consciousness”, in other word it exists within us. However, these dreams seem to suggest otherwise. It does feel like entering a different and seperate world, not one that’s a creation of our own mind.

This article is by no means academic, and I’m not trying to reach any sort of conclusions here. I merely want to share the experience, and hopefully provide some fruit for thoughts. I’m very interested to hear from those of you who have experienced similar things.
[/b]

This is so strange.......I did not open up this link intentionally.....not that I remember anyway.....I was just clicking on my email notifications and I am not sure how this webpage came to be on my computer screen......and prior to this post, I had not written in this thread, so how could I have had email notification of this thread?

Anyway, this thread is really interesting........some of my recent dreams might have involved the Bardo, or at least lead me to have more interest in it......

Perhaps we could compare notes. You still there?

**Ben_** · 01-21-2007 10:31 PM

Interesting experience Ion'..

Buddhist say that we have different counciens/ there are 3 main ones.
to keep it simple the first is the one we use to comunicate in our everyday life, part of this one and the second one we come in contact when we enter the dreamworld.. so from my point of view you may had experienced a sutil drift towards a higher stage of counciensness in your dream counciens./
If you wanna reach higher states of counciensness you need to have a high level of Shamata (attention meditation) and to learn emptyness. so you can see your Ego as empty and the same time see your dream empty and seeing the Observer that is seeing all this emptyness empty as well..
Emptyness means that you realize that thing are only a metal proyection, they are made of parts and thouse parts of more parts and so on.. that you are only seeing them this way in a temporary way// that karma forces to see reality this way..// **(this is a dream/ Samsara)** we need to wake up..
as you felt it in your dream.. that joy and happyness is just another state of counciensness, in Meditation you have a method to medidate in higher states of counciensness to loose the attachment towards this life.
Shamans sometimes use mushrooms or other plants to creat this temporaty but higher states, for the same purpouse.. sure dream can be used to do this..

As your practise becomes higher // for example tantra levels// your are going to use LDs as s very important plataform for your practise..

I hope we can share exprience and knowledge/...//

looks like you have been into LDs for a while.. maybe you can help me out.

**Armageddon_Heaven** · 01-22-2007 12:14 AM

Amazing. Simply amazing.

I'd love to try this, but I'm sure you have to do a lot of meditation to reach this state of focus!

It sounds like you were in heaven...

**DarkMind** · 01-22-2007 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ben_

As your practise becomes higher // for example tantra levels// your are going to use LDs as s very important plataform for your practise..

I hope we can share exprience and knowledge/...//

looks like you have been into LDs for a while.. maybe you can help me out.
[/b]

I know you weren't addressing me.

However, you are a tantra Buddhist practitioner?

Perhaps we could share our experience and knowledge too

**tommo** · 01-22-2007 01:57 PM

First of all. Wow....
Second, I have heard of this same sort of thing, with hallucinogenic drugs, such as shrooms, salvia divinorum and even mescaline.
Basically, how people have described it to me is, nothing matters - not time, not money, not sex (unthinkable for a man lol

) not even life itself really matters. These people also say that this is putting it simply and it transcends beyond this.
But only now have I actually connected this with enlightenment the Buddhists talk about. I don't know why, I guess I just never thought about one while hearing about the other.

Anway, what I didnt get about your post is where you said

Then I thought – assuming this is the creation of my own brain, how come I feel so detached from it? I felt my own existence (ego) was very WHOLESOME and SOLID, unlike the somewhat PARTIAL and FRAGILE “self” in the more typical LDs.[/b]

Because - although I've never had an LD before - I would have thought that being detatched from it would mean you felt partial and fragile, not wholesome and solid. Did you jsut make a mistake, if not could you please explain this to me?

Thankyou so much for posting this, I will try it as soon as I get my LD's stable, probably a few years lol.

Oh and also, I think you realised this, but I was just thinking, maybe you couldn't get through the middle of the black and white because you were thinking to much, which is in turn keeping you attatched to yourself, and if you felt excited that you're finally going to be in that world again this is also another thing keeping you attatched to yourself.
If my memory serves me correctly, I believe you have to think about nothing at all, like in Buddhist meditation, which doesn't just mean don't think about people, places, things to do etc, it means feelings and emotions aswell.

P.S maybe if you or someone else achieves this state again, they could try to see if they can picture NOTHING like, before the universe started.

**ion** · 01-22-2007 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by DarkMind

Anyway, this thread is really interesting........some of my recent dreams might have involved the Bardo, or at least lead me to have more interest in it......
Perhaps we could compare notes. You still there?
[/b]

Yes I'm still here :yumdumdoodledum:
LDs are no doubt the best form of entertainment, but I hope that's only scratching the surface. Love to hear your experiences, especially the ones concerning "Bardo". Not sure how this thread came to your attention, but buddhists do speak about "pre-destined relationship"

Originally Posted by DarkMind

Interesting experience Ion'..

Buddhist say that we have different counciens/ there are 3 main ones.
[/b]

Excellent quote, Ben! Indeed, I was under the impression (in those dreams) that the "strange materials" was capable of creating illussions. Perhaps "karma reflection", as you mentioned, is an even better way to describe it.

I'm not an LD guru. I become lucid in my dreams mostly via natural ways. Recently I have been trying the FILD technique but only had partial success.

**ion** · 01-22-2007 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Armageddon_Heaven

Amazing. Simply amazing.

I'd love to try this, but I'm sure you have to do a lot of meditation to reach this state of focus!

It sounds like you were in heaven...
[/b]

Actually I didn't do nearly enough meditation as I'm supposed to

In fact my meditations have never been, not even remotely, as rewarding as the two dreams I mentioned. This leads me to fantasize the LDs being an easier path to enlightenment (maybe not a high level, but enlightenment anyway)

Not sure if it is heaven because I didn't really see any winged individuals flying about in white robes. But I can confirm the sensation is at least heavenly... I was willing to give anything to stay there, and that's an honest recording of what went through my mind during the experience. But once back to reality, I can no longer imagine WHAT could possibly make me think like that, except I know I did think like that once. Very weird.

**ion** · 01-22-2007 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by tommo

Anway, what I didnt get about your post is where you said

Because - although I've never had an LD before - I would have thought that being detatched from it would mean you felt partial and fragile, not wholesome and solid. Did you jsut make a mistake, if not could you please explain this to me?
[/b]

Tommo, I probably did make a mistake. I didn't mean "being detached" as in the case that I often felt "detached" during classes in my school days. What I wanted to say is that I felt my dream presence was a distinct and seperate entity from the dream world. Therefore, the dream world seemed highly unlikely to have come out of my own imagination. I did not feel "connected" with the dream world in any way.

I swear that I honestly thought this (during the dream) -- "Wow! So THIS is what enlightenment is about!" I'm sure it was not the real enlightenment, but to me it felt more than good enough

I think your theory about me not being able to enter the gate was correct. I was overwhelmed by "earthly" emotions. I remember reading a buddhist story -- A man, after years of cultivation, finally reached the level of Arhats (a lower rank of enlightenment). He was overjoyed, but he instantly dropped out of the rank because "joy" is considered an attachement. Years later he re-gained the same level, but this time he suddenly feared about being knocked out again. He instantly fell because an Arhats is not supposed to have "fear" - another earthly attachment.

When I meditate I'm told to empty my mind first, but entering via LD is a whole different matter. I was taught there was no shortcut to enlightenment, but the whole LD experience do seem like a quicker way... okay, maybe it is a feature preview instead of a full-length blockbuster. Who knows?

**DarkMind** · 01-22-2007 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by ion

Yes I'm still here :yumdumdoodledum:
LDs are no doubt the best form of entertainment, but I hope that's only scratching the surface. Love to hear your experiences, especially the ones concerning "Bardo". Not sure how this thread came to your attention, but buddhists do speak about "pre-destined relationship"

[/b]

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/index.php?...c=40906&hl=

Check the above link out. I posted a lucid dream of mine in which might have something to do with the Bardo.

I will try to find the time to tell you about another recent dream I had (about a portal to the Purelands maybe).

Originally Posted by ion

Actually I didn't do nearly enough meditation as I'm supposed to

In fact my meditations have never been, not even remotely, as rewarding as the two dreams I mentioned. This leads me to fantasize the LDs being an easier path to enlightenment (maybe not a high level, but enlightenment anyway)

[/b]

I wouldn't say that lucid dreaming or Dream Yoga is an easier path to Enlightenment. What I have read is that Dream Yoga practice is only taught to Tantra practitioners after they have mastered both Samatha (Calm Abiding Meditation) and Vipassana (Insight Meditation) meditations. Dream Yoga is a high-level meditation. Based on my research on the Tibetan Buddhist groups in Singapore (where I am from) that teach Dream Yoga, it is one of the highest teachings, and it is not available to beginners.

Dream Yoga (of which lucid dreaming is a part of) is high-level stuff!

**Ben_** · 01-22-2007 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by ion

. I remember reading a buddhist story -- A man, after years of cultivation, finally reached the level of Arhats (a lower rank of enlightenment). He was overjoyed, but he instantly dropped out of the rank because "joy" is considered an attachement. Years later he re-gained the same level, but this time he suddenly feared about being knocked out again. He instantly fell because an Arhats is not supposed to have "fear" - another earthly attachment.

When I meditate I'm told to empty my mind first, but entering via LD is a whole different matter. I was taught there was no shortcut to enlightenment, but the whole LD experience do seem like a quicker way... okay, maybe it is a feature preview instead of a full-length blockbuster. Who knows?

[/b]

HI ion. looks like you have miss conception of ideas; I'm not pointing u out or anything, but this can lead to wrong ideas of this particular tradition.

An Arhat is someone that has "enter the Stream" he is already on the path to enlightment (a few Lifes), This "status" CANT be lowerd, in only goes up... why? beacuse a being of this nature has erradicated Ingnorance in his self, to do this and to reach this state is not easy.. Your portafolio must have: Infinite compasion, Total domain of your mind, a loving heart towards all beings, A direct perpection of emptyness and Wisdom..

Easy..... yeah right..

SO If a bieng of this kind will expierence Joy It will be the purest joy of all/. He coulden't show attachment towards this.. I he did show attachment he wouldent be an Arhat .. get my point.?. imposible to reach this level with attachment...
the same with Fear..

maybe the story was about a buddhist practitioner.. but not from a being like an Arhat.

***
Second when you talk about meditation// is a wrong idea to "empty" your mind... other people say put your mind in blank... ERROR,, old saying: If you work to keep your mind in blank/empty it will stay in blank..// why would you like a empty mind?? NO use..?1. it will take years of practise 2. you will go no where./// So there are other ways of medidation; with concise goals and paths/*.

Meditation is like a knife(tool) Guided with your WISDOM-compassion to cut your pain, missconception of reality, and reach Enlightment..

So it will be impossible to reach enlightment only with LD's// why?> because you are still under the influence if ignorance.//
As well is impossible to reach enlightment with only Dream YOGA,,, this is only a tool that will help you.

But dont feel bad.. Now You are aware, your are step ahead of the millions and millions of biengs suffering in this world (in one way or another)..

It is possible to reach enlightment in this life.. but you need to work hard.. but working hard means the harder it gets the happier you become,less and less pain.
Dont wait until BARDO..(stage between your death and teh next life)/..(and if you are not trained in Bardo is no use for you)..

I encourage everyone to take a serious look at this tradittion and see what is has to offer//I promise you will find something usefull// is all about reaching a higher level of understanding within your selfs/.thats all you need.

***
Dark mind asked if I was tantra Buddhist practitioner//
I'm a Buddhist practitioner but not a Tantra one/.. why? beacuse I'm not ready for tantra.. It takes many years to reach this level//. Tantra Yoga is the highest leves of teachings, by this I mean that,, You could right now buy Some Tantric Sutras and go with a Tantric Teacher ,, no problem.. But the thing is that you wouldent understand it.. because you dont have the knowladge, neighter a trained mind and a suituble heart to go with it.. But you can reach this teachings.. not impossible.( just do it, start in the path).
I have studied and know what is tantra and have made some little practises about this.. a this moment is out of my league..

But sure if anyone has a question about this or about meditation or other Buddhist subject I'm more than happy to Help,..

Ben

**tommo** · 01-23-2007 12:34 AM

When I meditate I'm told to empty my mind first, but entering via LD is a whole different matter. I was taught there was no shortcut to enlightenment, but the whole LD experience do seem like a quicker way... okay, maybe it is a feature preview instead of a full-length blockbuster. Who knows?[/b]

I think that this really is a shortcut, in a way. I've been thinking about it and hypnosis is the same as WILD. You are awake and fall straight into a dream state. And hypnosis is a form of meditation. I think that all these things are just ways to reach into your subconcious and that is where you can start to achieve enlightenment. Probably one reason LD seems like a shortcut is because dreaming is something we all do naturally, and you don't have to sit there for an hour or two to get into the dream state like you do with meditation etc. Also you don't really have to try to get into your subconcious coz as soon as you start dreaming, the doorway is already opened!

So Ben, you say that there is no shortcuts and you need to work hard etc. If you think about it, Ion has been working hard, he's been trying to get to this same state for many years, failing many times.
I'm not sure if you've achieved even a low level of enlightenment yet? But if you have, compare how Ion described it and how you would describe it. I am sure they are very much the same thing.

**DarthDallas** · 01-23-2007 03:17 AM

I really enjoyed reading your experiences with this, Ion, and I look forward to obtaining this "opening of the 3rd eye", it sounds like, if nothing else, a great way to increase lucidity, and perhaps have a wonderfully undescribable experience as you did. Thanks for posting!

**ion** · 01-23-2007 03:37 AM

Folks, this is getting very interesting. Please keep the good stuff flowing in!

In this post I deliberately tried not to get into details of meditations and spiritual practices for the following reasons:

After all, this is a forum about LD
Although I feel there may be a linkage between the LD experiences and so-called spiritual enlightenment, I can never be too certain
I’m fully aware that the LD phenomena can probably be easily explained by many theories, be it Tantra, Zen Buddhism, Taoism, or any other spiritual practices. However, to simply write it off that way seems a terrible waste. The experiences may not be what enlightenment is about, but it surely felt like one… at least as closely as one can imagine. Yet it is very approachable through lucid dreaming – a capability many are born with. Therefore by not tying the LD experiences with Buddhist practice, I’m hoping to leave enough room for imagination, experiments, or even just pure speculations

A few words about the mistakes I made regarding Buddhist practices –

The Arhat story. Ben, you are very right about it. However, the story is really just a Buddhist fable that’s used to teach the concept of attachment.

The “empty-mindedness” during meditation. I admit I over simplified it to the point of being false, in a desperate attempt to not side slipping into another topic. People should definitely NOT use my writings to guide their spiritual practices

All that said, I can’t shake the feeling that the LDs offered a “glimpse” into something special. The LD gurus out there should at least try this – you guys have too much fun already!

**spydrswebb** · 01-25-2007 03:17 PM

Hey ion.

I am no physicist or scientist for that matter, but while reading your post I had a huge urge to share to you some information I learned a couple months ago while watching the discovery channel. I am not sure if this will help you at all or how concise I can be but I felt like what I had observed related.

I was watching this show about the String Theory. Can't really explain too much about it, but bassiclly it desribes how the universe moves or flows and dimensions. In this show they were talking about how many dimensions we have in our universe, which they thought was ten but figured out to be 11. But when they figured out that there were 11 dimensions, they figured out that there were so many more possiblities to other universes out there. Ours is a line that moves like a string. But they discovered other universe shapes that are close to circles and other random shapes. And in each of these universes there are different properties. Like in ours we have gravity. Some they figured dont. In ours we have elements. In others they are not present. And these universes float around inside another universe and collide and pass threw each other, and even transfer thier properties in which the universe contained.

So while you were talking about the two different shapes/objects (one balck and one white) flowing into each other it immediately reminded me of this. And then when you said you saw a window of the purpleish universe maybe it was the two flowing together transfereing properties or creating an alternate universe.

Now I am not tooo sure how clear across I came I am quite young and it is hard for me to explain the relation I kind of see between these. I do not know if you have heard of Astral Projection but maybe you might of found a way to transfer your body out into another universe. I would sugeest that you try and check out this show I don't remeber the name but it was on the discovery channel and it was about the string theory. Maybe the help of a physicist or scientist could help explain what I am tryin to describe or just point out how totally wrong but I am but whatever I just felt the need to post.

later

**BohmaN** · 01-25-2007 06:01 PM

You might be interested in reading "Art of Dreaming"

**becomingagodo** · 01-26-2007 01:34 AM

Dark mind asked if I was tantra Buddhist practitioner//
I'm a Buddhist practitioner but not a Tantra one/.. why? beacuse I'm not ready for tantra.. It takes many years to reach this level//. Tantra Yoga is the highest leves of teachings, by this I mean that,, You could right now buy Some Tantric Sutras and go with a Tantric Teacher ,, no problem..[/b]

http://berzinarchives.com/tantra/index.html
I have been reading up on tantra meditation. To me it seems easier and fun as you can use your imagination and not just sit their and focus your mind. Well i will begin trying this out with a few modification of my own and i will come back to say whether it is hard. It seems i cant concentrate that much so visualizing something might help. I wonder if i can get checked for ADD as i thing i have it.

**4evacrazie** · 01-26-2007 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by spydrswebb

I was watching this show about the String Theory. Can't really explain too much about it, but bassiclly it desribes how the universe moves or flows and dimensions. In this show they were talking about how many dimensions we have in our universe, which they thought was ten but figured out to be 11. But when they figured out that there were 11 dimensions, they figured out that there were so many more possiblities to other universes out there. Ours is a line that moves like a string. But they discovered other universe shapes that are close to circles and other random shapes. And in each of these universes there are different properties. Like in ours we have gravity. Some they figured dont. In ours we have elements. In others they are not present. And these universes float around inside another universe and collide and pass threw each other, and even transfer thier properties in which the universe contained.

[/b]

hmm.. I'm not sure if we're both on the same topic here, but heres my 2 cents. I've just finished reading about OBE and Astral Planes(long story short for those who dont know, while OOB you've entered Astral Plane, and with higher concentration you're able to enter higher level of planes). I heard somewhere that when you dream, you enter Astral plane *I may be wrong, correct me please*

some info about it

http://www.astralsociety.com/as/index.php?...=Show&AID=6 <--this decribes the OBE and stages of planes

http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys2/ap_01.htm <-- advance info about the planes, scroll about half way down

From what ion said, it seems like he found a *path* to the Mental Plane.

3. The Mental Plane. The mental plane is the world of all thoughts and ideas.
On the mental plane, thoughts are *REAL OBJECTS*, and these objects are
called "THOUGHT-FORMS". "Thoughts are things" is a common idea in occultism,
and this idea refers to the fact that thought-forms exist as real live
things on the mental plane. The mental plane is a dynamically brilliant
world of ever-shifting abstract landscapes of color, sound and sights that
would probably make the ordinary person go stark raving mad if they could
actually see the mental plane for what it is.
The mental plane overlaps substantially with the astral plane, and
there is every good chance you will see numerous thought-forms as you
learn to astral project. However, chances are very good that you will NOT
ever perceive the mental plane as distinct from the astral plane, so
chances are good you will never see the stuff that could make you lose
your mind. The reason this is so is because it takes a lot of talent to get
to the mental plane. I personally have never been there and am only
describing to you what I have read about it. Again, we will say more about
this throughout these notes.

some interesting experiences about someone entering *alternative worlds* ; http://www.astralsociety.com/as/Forum/inde...ic,21410.0.html

I may be wrong, pretty sure I am. But it's just something I like to share.

**tommo** · 01-26-2007 08:55 AM

spydrswebb - You have the wrong idea about the String Theory, in fact it is not even really a theory. A theory is something which has some evidence to back it up but isn't solid. It's better to say String Idea lol. But whatever.
You have the wrong idea because the String Theory is a way to explain how our universe came into existence and was able to work. For this to happen the mass of several constants like electrons etc. have to be exactly what they are in our universe. So with the String Theory they are saying that there are infinite, or sometimes 10 or 11, universes all different dimensions. And our one just happened to be the one which works correctly. They also state that one cannot interact with the other dimension, for example if there was a car in another universe, exactly where I am sitting right now, heading right for me, I would not feel a thing or hear a thing. It is kind of the same as the idea that the universe has been expanding and contracting for all of eternity and this universe we live in how just happened to be the one that worked perfectly and created a planet that was able to support life etc. The only difference I know of is that the String Theory states that all universes and dimensions are all here right now in the same place, but not interactable. (sp?)

This is as far as I can understand it anyway. So. If I am right, Ion can't have been witnessing what you said because we can't interact with the other universes because the are on different "layers" or dimensions.
Althought maybe LDing/meditation/hypnosis/astral travel, are ways to interact with them. You never know.

**ion** · 01-26-2007 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by 4evacrazie

3. The Mental Plane. The mental plane is the world of all thoughts and ideas.
On the mental plane, thoughts are *REAL OBJECTS*, and these objects are
called "THOUGHT-FORMS". [/b]

That sounds really like it! The strange material is probably the "thought forms" then. I've got to read more about this. Thanks for the truly inspiring tip!

Thread: Secret Passage?

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