Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

Originally Posted by naikou

Marvo... either you have some really open minded people where you live, or you're really good at communicating. The few people I've attempted to tell about lucid dreaming have thought I was totally insane.

Or maybe it's just that Europe > U.S.?

It might have something to do, with my friends knowing, that I have a lot of knowledge. I wouldn't start cooking up false stuff, they know that :p

Lucid dreaming is based on science and confirmed by it. It's all in your head. I never experienced lucid dreaming before I read about it, and I believed it in right away because it has a sound basis. Some big monster running through the mountains that manages to show up every few years yet no one has ever really caught or studied? Yeah right.

You can read my mind? No. You can move objects with your mind? No. Why do I not believe in these because I've learned of LDing? Because it has no basis in science and can never have a basis in science because it violates laws that govern ourselves.

Long story short, I'm not going to believe in something that makes no sense. LD did make sense. Telekinesis? Not so much.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Why is it so hard to believe that a large community like psipog might have been for real. They had what, over 2000 members. Many of which claimed to be able to do telekinesis. Me being one of them. It's no different from lucid dreaming...it's just another ability. And I'll be damned if you're going to tell me that I didn't slide that can, and roll that straw and other things, hehe.

If you can move things around with your mind, you're a candidate for one million dollars! Courtesy of James Randi! Why not go accept your prize? Surely this is a remarkable ability!

I'm calling you a liar in case you didn't pick up on it.

Lucid Dreaming has been proven. There's not even a debate when it comes to wether or not lucid dreaming exists. Everyone dreams every night. What is so strange about being able to controle it? We learned about Lucid Dreaming in my psychology class last year, something we'd never do with the psychic stuff you mentioned. There is nothing para-normal about Lucid Dreaming. It is accepted by science.

The Wig, Randi will never part with his million dollars. The whole thing is made so that you can never really prove anything and even if you do the prize money is in bonds and potentialy worthless.

Think about it this way. Many things that couldn't be understood in the past, have been proven through through science. The old hag syndrome associated with SP was thought to be caused by demons pressing down on your chest. I could give many other examples. But the point is: Species evolve, understanding evolves, science evolves.

The only specific thing I can comment on is OBE\Astral Projection. The mystical view on this is that your mind\soul can leave your body and reach a higher dimension or travel freely through our everyday world. Skeptics say that you feel like that, but it doesn't really happen - it's sort of like a more realistic dream-like world. THROUGH SCIENCE: There have been researches about this and claims that people closed in a room could leave their bodies and reach another room in which a computer would generate a random image. Later those people would describe what they saw and, while in some cases the description only matched a portion of reality, some could accurately say what they saw and the results would match... I don't know if these studies are real. I only read about this on wikipedia and some public domain websites. Sometime from now I may try some of the techniques to have an OBE and give it a look. And even if it's just a dream-like experience most claim that it's very cool . I also had thought of joining the IAC (International Academy of Conscientology) where one takes classes about the states of the mind and are taught inductory techniques.
http://www.iacworld.org/

This may seem awkward to those having a first look into it but since I began to enter the world of dreams and having a look at the states of conscience I achieved a more open-minded state. Although I don't believe in god, now I always make a statement like "I don't believe in god BUT HE MAY EXIST" when talking about these matters. So, since I understand the possibility of something existing even if I don't believe in it, I've been more open minded to certain things. It's a cool state of mind. You seem to think things clearer...

great topic btw, although it's not directly related to lucid dreaming

Originally Posted by The Wig

If you can move things around with your mind, you're a candidate for one million dollars! Courtesy of James Randi! Why not go accept your prize? Surely this is a remarkable ability!

I'm calling you a liar in case you didn't pick up on it.

That James Randi challenge has some flaws in it. I wish I still had that site that proved it though.

Science has somewhat studied Psionic abilities. Come to think of it they created an entire LIST of abilities that some people in the Paranormal group haven't even heard of.

And yes Jc, the Studies do exist. They had a program on it once on I think it was the Discovery channel or Discover Science Channel.

Originally Posted by The Wig

Lucid dreaming is based on science and confirmed by it. It's all in your head. I never experienced lucid dreaming before I read about it, and I believed it in right away because it has a sound basis. Some big monster running through the mountains that manages to show up every few years yet no one has ever really caught or studied? Yeah right.

You can read my mind? No. You can move objects with your mind? No. Why do I not believe in these because I've learned of LDing? Because it has no basis in science and can never have a basis in science because it violates laws that govern ourselves.

Long story short, I'm not going to believe in something that makes no sense. LD did make sense. Telekinesis? Not so much.

Yes... although true laws can't be broken, many laws that were believed to be true in the past were proved wrong... most proven to be pathetic comparing to our modern knowledge.
It is believe that a different energy from the physical one flows through our body. Upon breaking the doors that keeps it locked inside, they can be manifested physically. Remember that through our lives we only use 15% off our true capacities. I'm not saying that I believe in this, I'm just saying that it's possibly true.
Also if everything follows (known physical) laws then it's impossible for god to exist. Again, I myself don't believe in god (I don't feel like I have reasons to believe) but acknowledge that it is possible for him to exist.

Originally Posted by horsebucket

Thats always the first thing that comes to mind but what if science isn't ready to get into non locality because it will turn half of modern science upside down. Just like the physicists back in the day couldn't accept the world was round because they would have had to change all their scientific theories.

Maybe the people who can do these tricks take advantage of the fact that the worlds ignorant and uses it to their advantage. For example lets nobody believed that people could hack into computers because the computer manufacturers said it was impossible.

If you were a hacker would you go around telling people that you were able to do it or would you take advantage of peoples ignorant and keep on hacking without having to worry about being detected because most people don't even believe it's possible?

I think alot of this psychic shit really is happening all the time only it's way too subtle for the average person to notice. I think hackings a good example because you could have somebody hacking your computer your whole life and never realize until you learn about hacking and computer security yourself. Real hackers wont leave any trace and do their best to go unnoticed. Of course theres the people just doing it for the fun and fuck around with your computer so you will notice. If psychic abilities were real you'd think thered be some people fucking around with them for the fun too.

That is one explanation. Though i like to stick a bit closer to insanity. I think a movie version of Alice in Wonderland depicted our nature nicely.
It went like this:

The jack of hearts was accused of stealing a tart and was facing trial.
At some point during the trial Alice gets called forth as a witness. She points out that all the tarts are still there, on a shiny plate right under their noses.
There couldn't have been any theft to begin with.
The crowd is shocked at her response, and the white rabbit asks her: "Alice, don't You care about what they think?"...
And she says: "No... I don't... Not if i'm right."...

I believe people only see what they know to be true. If anything doesn't live up to that image they simply don't see it.
But the same thing would go for You and me. Perhaps those scientists never found evidence of some wonderful phenomenon simply because You don't believe they did.
But that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Originally Posted by 27

The Wig, Randi will never part with his million dollars. The whole thing is made so that you can never really prove anything and even if you do the prize money is in bonds and potentialy worthless.

That's not true, both parties have to agree on the terms beforehand. It's very clear. All you have to do is demonstrate psychic ability. You should be able to do that in an empty room with none of your "people" with you. How hard is that if you can truly move things with your mind? Not hard at all. That thing about "stress" and whatnot is bullshit. If you can do it, you can at least show signs you're doing it, right?

There's a reason people claim to have psychic power and it turns out to be false, or all these underground forum people (like the previous guy I quoted) never "release" their psychic power. The reason is: because they can't do it. It's impossible. And if you say so fool hardy that it is not impossible, provide evidence because saying "I can do it!" is worthless.

Randi's Challenge is very flawed. http://psipog.net/art-beware-pseudo-skepticism.html

I don't mind you not believing. Science has held back the human race for a long time. If you could open your mind for a second, you would realize it.

The reason I don't care? I've done telekinesis. So in my mind, it is even crazier to hear someone tell me I'm lying. In fact, it's quite funny! I laugh, because I've done it, yet you tell me that it's not real!

But that's fine...it's your choice to believe what you want. However, I think that you call me a liar is just stupid.

And what do you know about stress inhibit your ability to do telekinesis as you have never done it?! For your info, you most likely have to have 100% of your mind clear to perform PK, and having other people like that in the room can make you nervous and cloud your mind. so yes, it does have an affect.
Brandon

Originally Posted by magicdood

Randi's Challenge is very flawed. http://psipog.net/art-beware-pseudo-skepticism.html

I don't mind you not believing. Science has held back the human race for a long time. If you could open your mind for a second, you would realize it.

The reason I don't care? I've done telekinesis. So in my mind, it is even crazier to hear someone tell me I'm lying. In fact, it's quite funny! I laugh, because I've done it, yet you tell me that it's not real!

But that's fine...it's your choice to believe what you want. However, I think that you call me a liar is just stupid.

And what do you know about stress inhibit your ability to do telekinesis as you have never done it?! For your info, you most likely have to have 100% of your mind clear to perform PK, and having other people like that in the room can make you nervous and cloud your mind. so yes, it does have an affect.
Brandon

You just linked me to a source that is biased saying why James Randi's challenge is flawed. You'd need to link me to a neutral party for this to even register in my mind as evidence of it being flawed. Nevertheless, I went ahead and gave you the benefit of the doubt and went ahead and read your link.

All it debated was that the money isn't immediately available as one million dollars. But it can be immediately transferred into cash. Either way, if someone were to win, they'd stand to make a substantial amount of cash.

Now, if you're so upset with Randi, why not go to another person who can substantiate your claims? Surely if you have this wonderful power it'd be useful for good, right? It could be studied and bring a whole new age to civilization? Right?

Science has done nothing but advance the human race. I'm not sure how you'd enjoy all the comforts you now enjoy in this age without science, but perhaps it has to do with your telekinesis? If you want to be taken seriously, post some evidence of your powers. Read my mind. Do something.

As for it taking 100% of your mind power to perform "psi" or whatever it is, I don't believe it for a second. The brain is incredibly powerful and via it's memory can be trained to perform even the most difficult tasks at an incredible speed. There's a reason Uri Geller never stood up to scrutiny - he wasn't a real psychic. And for that matter, no one who ever claimed they were, was.

I know this is a small forum on a very specialized subject, but you sitting around lying to people here isn't cool at all. For all I know you could be sitting around laughing at the people who DO believe you, or maybe you really think you have read someone's mind (and they were messing with you). Either way, you're either incredibly mistaken or a bad liar.

Hehe, I'm loving this!

First off, I see where you are coming about the article on psipog, fair enough.

However, there have been numerous people who could do telekinesis that have tried to setup a meeting with Randi and been denied.

In fact, http://psistudies.net/forums/index.php?topic=541.0

Anyways, not everyone here is in this for the money. I am on the path of self-realization and Enlightenment, and money to me, means very little. I can't say that about everyone, but that takes a way me at least.

Furthermore, I don't need you calling me a liar. I mean, this argument is going to get nowhere. I've done Pk in real life, you are very close minded...and that's it.

How can you call me a liar when you have never seen me perform Pk. How?

Brandon

Oh and a quick addition about brain power and such. An empty mind does help in telekinesis. You've never tried so why are you arguing that?

Okay, I'm extremely skeptical about PK but I certainly don't think it's impossible (hence me starting this thread). And I found it very interesting how in P&N Bullsh!t that they show a quick clip of the famous Russian woman (Nina Kulagina) back years and years ago who had hundreds of controlled tests done on film and she proved she could move things with her mind over and over again, and yet Penn and Teller didn't talk about her AT ALL. Curious. And I've seen every Bullshit episode and I think Randi was an awesome guy. After reading those emails and board posts I think he's a first rate ass.

Getting on with my original post, I'm not calling you a liar because you say you can perform PK, I'm calling you a liar because you say money means very little. This is a major sign of someone who is completely full of shit.

Also, most comps have webcams by this point, post a video that makes it plainly obvious you are performing PK, put a non-magnetic object under a clear bowl and move it around or something. Don't pull a Jesus and just say we should have faith in you.

Personaly, I dont know untill I try it.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, what do you guys think?

I think you're getting the words AWAKE and AWARE mixed up. You're not actually awake in your dream, that's more of an analogy.

Originally Posted by naikou

If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on?

I would agree with the fact that lucid dreaming is i guess a phenomena, but do you all really place lucid dreaming that high up there with telekenisis and mind reading and all that stuff? (or would if those things were real) I guess I'm just "good" at accepting things that are more out of the ordinary, so lucid dreaming is one of those things where it's really cool and interesting, but it only gets to be a phenomena when I REALLY think about it. I think the reason behind me thinking this is just that everyone can do it if they really try. If it was just some gift that a select few people had then it would be a bit more strange

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste.

Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.

With all the thousands of people out there with supposed "psi" abilities, you'd think at least one of them would have proven it to a respectable scientist. Or at least one of them to be in it "for the money." Or for there to be at least one peer-reviewed article in a scientific journal that explained logically how it works.

People have been claiming for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years to have these abilities, and not one of them has done much in the way of proof, aside from set-up demonstrations, the workings of which could be explained by any common street magician. Houdini made it his personal mission to debunk fake seances and embarrassed many "spiritualists" in the process. But for some reason, people are still buying into the notion that seances are real.

I will say that I have an extremely open mind to possibilities that haven't been discovered yet. I recognize the possibility of anything paranormal (ghosts, alien abduction, mind-reading, etc), but the accent here is on possibility. So far, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it is even remotely probable. And until someone steps up and shows the world, I'm going to have to go on assuming that it's all built on false dreams and snake-oil salesmen.

Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me.

But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!

Originally Posted by magicdood

Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me.

But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!

you keep saying for people to prove that it's real by trying it themselves, but how are we supposed to do that? just point our fingers at something and think really hard and it will magically lift into the air? i dont think so. I am very skeptical about it but if you had any evidence such as showing people exactly how you even learned to do it (and not just saying time and dedication, but the actual things you did) then i might believe it. I'll do what you keep asking everyone to do and keep an open mind, but still this seems unbelievably unlikely.

Originally Posted by luv2dream

you keep saying for people to prove that it's real by trying it themselves, but how are we supposed to do that? just point our fingers at something and think really hard and it will magically lift into the air? i dont think so. I am very skeptical about it but if you had any evidence such as showing people exactly how you even learned to do it (and not just saying time and dedication, but the actual things you did) then i might believe it. I'll do what you keep asking everyone to do and keep an open mind, but still this seems unbelievably unlikely.

Why don't you experiment then? hm? Find a website with techniques and try them? What harm could it do except maybe waste an hour of your life you can't get back?

Seriously if every skeptic would shut their mouth for a few minutes and try it you might get results.

Originally Posted by Chaos Theory

Why don't you experiment then? hm? Find a website with techniques and try them? What harm could it do except maybe waste an hour of your life you can't get back?

Seriously if every skeptic would shut their mouth for a few minutes and try it you might get results.

Ok, I'll bite. I will give this serious attention and do my very best. Can you recommend a site that shows some beginner exercises that you think would be best for me?

Originally Posted by skysaw

Ok, I'll bite. I will give this serious attention and do my very best. Can you recommend a site that shows some beginner exercises that you think would be best for me?

Yeah I want to try too. Want to be my training psi-partner?
But yeah, I'd be really happy and suprised if I could make something move just a bit.

PsiPog is a great place to start.