if LDing is real then what about. . .

[Needcatscan]

So while reading another person's thread, I found he said something that I have been thinking about for a while. If it wasn't for the fact that I've had LDs before learning about them and what they were, I would have put it up there with all the other things that were not real, IE telekinesis, ghosts, OOBEs, psychics, bigfoot, and so on. My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it? I mean really, if a person really could read another's mind or if someone really could move objects by will alone, wouldn't that be some big news? Like Phenomenon with John Travolta, he really could do this and there was all kinds of scientists wanting his brain. But unlike Phenomenon, there is no credible evidence for any of these things. That's where LDing comes in: "waking up in your dream? That's called being awake!" would have been something close to a typical response when telling someone about LDing. How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, yet most of you who are reading this can accomplish just that, as well as myself (kind of makes you feel like a superhero doesn't it?). YET, there is very little research on it, just LaBerge and his team of whatever-nauts, which I'm sure have little standing in the world of scientists. You tell people about your LDs and they look at you like you told them you were abducted by aliens and anal-probed. Point being, if Lucid dreaming is really possible, then what about all the other sketchy things that have little to no research or scientific backing? I've seen youtube videos of people supposedly moving objects with their minds, we've all probably seen bigfoot videos, and hell, there are a crap load of psychics who claim they can tell the future. I've always been a straight up realist, if I can't touch it or experience it then it's BS, so LDing has really got me rethinking things (except religion, I will eternally be agnostic). What do you guys think?

[Chaos Theory]

About Bigfoot? They disproved it. Telekinesis? I'm guessing your talking about the video on youtube about the " Psiwheel " To tell you the truth, I don't even think the Psi-wheel works half the time. Psychic ability from mind reading to Psi-control HAS been indeed tested. It was big news, back then. Ever heard of Uri Gellar? Think of it this way: Paris hilton going to prison is huge " Depressing " news. Do more Research on Psychic development, Like Telekinesis and mind reading and what not. Eventually I bet you will find what your looking for.

[Marvo]

Lucid-dreaming is not to be awake when you sleep, but to be aware when you dream. The difference? I can say, that I'm always aware when I dream, I'm in complete control of my dream-body, I just rarely realise that I'm in a dream. Point being, if you can think you are awake in a dream (which we do most of them time), then can't you also think that you're dreaming? Unlike stuff like telekenisis and all that other stuff, the science and explenations behind lucid dreaming makes perfect sense.

[Blµb]

Hmm, I never thought about LDing the way I thought about telekinesis etc.... But hey, maybe somewhere out there, there's a forum about telekinesis, with a thread similar to this one? I didn't believe in TK before and I still don't. Until I can do it or they can show me some proof I'll stay that way. Today... it's easy to set those things up, so, what would a proof look like for you? You can only prove it to individuals by coming into their houses moving things around... But, really, who'd care about it THAT much?

[naikou]

Yes, it's quite fascinating, isn't it? If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on? Like you, I consider myself a realist. Like you, I would have never accepted Lucid Dreaming if I had not personally experienced it. However, learning about Lucid Dreaming has increased my respect for those "fringe groups" who believe in ESP, ghosts, aliens, etc. By no account do I believe them, and I still think that at least 90% of them are completely nonsensical (Murphy's Law), but I don't immediately reject far out views, as I would have before learning about Lucid Dreaming. Then again, perhaps it's a true sign of intellectual maturity to be able to know that supernatural things aren't real, and still wish that they were. With that mindset, you eventually get rewarded with something as interesting as Lucid Dreaming.

[Needcatscan]

Nice reply Naikou. I agree that I also don't look at other groups as being completely crazy anymore (just regular crazy) and that is the conclusion that I have mostly come to with doing the little bit of research I've done on other phenomenas. So I agree that LDing is the gem among the bullshit And I KNOW bigfoot isn't real, thanks, it was an example to press a point

[0bs3n3]

Great post needcatscan. In fact before I even had my first LD (they didn't come naturally to me) I even thought that maybe it was a huge elaborate hoax.

[Needcatscan]

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity. I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either? Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be

[Chaos Theory]

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity. I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either? Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be That's something I can agree with is the Psi-wheel. I used to know quite alot of people that thought the psi-wheel could help them in Telekinesis. By the way, have you looked up the expression " Chi " Yet perhaps? Just curious.

[luv2dream]

If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on? I would agree with the fact that lucid dreaming is i guess a phenomena, but do you all really place lucid dreaming that high up there with telekenisis and mind reading and all that stuff? (or would if those things were real) I guess I'm just "good" at accepting things that are more out of the ordinary, so lucid dreaming is one of those things where it's really cool and interesting, but it only gets to be a phenomena when I REALLY think about it. I think the reason behind me thinking this is just that everyone can do it if they really try. If it was just some gift that a select few people had then it would be a bit more strange

[magicdood]

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste. Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.

[skysaw]

With all the thousands of people out there with supposed "psi" abilities, you'd think at least one of them would have proven it to a respectable scientist. Or at least one of them to be in it "for the money." Or for there to be at least one peer-reviewed article in a scientific journal that explained logically how it works. People have been claiming for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years to have these abilities, and not one of them has done much in the way of proof, aside from set-up demonstrations, the workings of which could be explained by any common street magician. Houdini made it his personal mission to debunk fake seances and embarrassed many "spiritualists" in the process. But for some reason, people are still buying into the notion that seances are real. I will say that I have an extremely open mind to possibilities that haven't been discovered yet. I recognize the possibility of anything paranormal (ghosts, alien abduction, mind-reading, etc), but the accent here is on possibility. So far, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it is even remotely probable. And until someone steps up and shows the world, I'm going to have to go on assuming that it's all built on false dreams and snake-oil salesmen.

[magicdood]

Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me. But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!

[Needcatscan]

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste. Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead. On a path of self-realization. . . Sounds like a long boring trip :p j/k I respect your stance on the matter even though I personally would like to see proof, but we don't get everything we want. I've been researching (okay, really I've just been youtube searching) and have come to the almost 100% conclusion that it is all either trickery, coincidence or self-deception, mainly with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc And as far as "try it yourself", been there done that. Also notice that in ALL the psipog vids NEVER shows the person's face, body, etc, only the object and their hands. Which means blowing could have been used in every one of them and probably was. I'm even willing to believe that some people do it unintentionably and honestly believe they are doing it with their mind. I'm still researching the Russian girl Nina.

[magicdood]

Hehe, I couldn't agree with you guys more about videos! At least we agree on something! A lot of videos are fake...definitely a big fact! However, that doesn't mean that telekinesis is fake, does it? I mean, skeptics will point out that a psi wheel can be moved by heat, yet does that mean that it cannot be moved in any other way? Of course not! And for trying it out yourself, do some research. There is not just one method. What I do/did, might not work for you. Also, belief in the ability helps, so if you have 0 belief that it will work, then chances are it won't simply because of the mental block that it creates. I'm glad that some people are finally delving into this. And by all means, I'm not saying to have blind faith in me or anyone else. I could very well be lying. I'm not, but how do you guys know that? So like I said, doing it yourself is the best proof. I would suggest, for starters, going to psipog.net (archived, but the articles are great), psistudies.net or psilinks.org to find more great sites, or psionicsonline.net Furthermore, don't get caught up in videos. It's just too hard to tell what is real and what is not. It's not even worth arguing about the validity of certain videos. Just trust me on that one, haha. Good luck, Brandon P.s. If you guys have any questions, wanna learn more, or just have any comments, I'm always going to be checking the private messages, so feel free to contact me that way!

[Silvanus350]

Isn't that kind of like "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" though? In other words, because we don't know a person can't wield psionics must mean the possibility exists, right? Don't really have an opinion here, I'm just saying that some people think along different lines.

[luv2dream]

How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, what do you guys think? I think you're getting the words AWAKE and AWARE mixed up. You're not actually awake in your dream, that's more of an analogy.

[TheUniversalOne]

So while reading another person's thread, I found he said something that I have been thinking about for a while. If it wasn't for the fact that I've had LDs before learning about them and what they were, I would have put it up there with all the other things that were not real, IE telekinesis, ghosts, OOBEs, psychics, bigfoot, and so on. My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it? I mean really, if a person really could read another's mind or if someone really could move objects by will alone, wouldn't that be some big news? Like Phenomenon with John Travolta, he really could do this and there was all kinds of scientists wanting his brain. But unlike Phenomenon, there is no credible evidence for any of these things. That's where LDing comes in: "waking up in your dream? That's called being awake!" would have been something close to a typical response when telling someone about LDing. How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, yet most of you who are reading this can accomplish just that, as well as myself (kind of makes you feel like a superhero doesn't it?). YET, there is very little research on it, just LaBerge and his team of whatever-nauts, which I'm sure have little standing in the world of scientists. You tell people about your LDs and they look at you like you told them you were abducted by aliens and anal-probed. Point being, if Lucid dreaming is really possible, then what about all the other sketchy things that have little to no research or scientific backing? I've seen youtube videos of people supposedly moving objects with their minds, we've all probably seen bigfoot videos, and hell, there are a crap load of psychics who claim they can tell the future. I've always been a straight up realist, if I can't touch it or experience it then it's BS, so LDing has really got me rethinking things (except religion, I will eternally be agnostic). What do you guys think? It can't have any "scientific" backing because it can only be "backed" by experience, which in scientific terms is null and void. Even if you were an open-minded scientist and I told you I could project to your house and tell you the sweater you were wearing and so we decided to "experiment" with the idea, it's not something that could be published. There's no substance to it. People would just think I already knew or whatever. The scientists who probably are trying to research this, I know there must be some...I've read at least one book about astral projection where the author was one of the most skeptical scientists until experiencing AP. I don't know how people can't believe in LDing because I've spoken to several people about it and almost all of them have informed me they have done it at least once, they just never knew what it was called. It's not really something to "believe" exists anyway, because everyone dreams it's just a different type of dream. Obviously, for someone who doesn't know what a LD is you can't say it's "waking up while dreaming" that's poor word choice. I describe it as being able to realize you are dreaming and then control your dream. You have to be a pretty boring, highly skeptical person to think that's not possible. I'd hate to live like that. As far as having to touch, experience to believe I think most of my experiences are from my willingness to investigate everything I hear about with an open mind. If I had laughed when my aunt told me she could project I wouldn't be here. I think anything is possible especially when you realize we're about as "real" as our thoughts. Ps- I don't understand why it's hard to believe in telekinesis especially if you've taken physics. It's just the ablity to move energy. We are all energy bodies, why is it so impossible to be able to direct that energy at another object? On top of that "energy can't be destroyed" so what happens to us after we die? That energy doesn't just evaporate into space. It travels somewhere, and then taking into account that essentially all things are living...*mumbles into a never-ending rant* Peace

[Marvo]

Magicdood, record a video of it, that is more than 200x200 in size, it's not black/white crappy quality, it's not super close-up and unfocused, you have to do the act on a glass table/transparent something, glass box if possible, you have to get any kind of static-electricity out of your body, and we have to be able to see both of your hands. You may never clip in the film, and only you may be nearby, during the filming.

[magicdood]

If you think I'm going to do that just to please you guys, you are out of your minds. I DON'T care what you guys think of me or believe in. It makes no difference to be honest. Also, TheUniversalOne brought up a great point. Think of the universe as a full ocean, and you are just 1 drop of water in that ocean...except the ocean is energy. So how do you tell who is who? You cannot. We are all one, all one energy field, my energy can affect your energy since it's the same. So to move in object, my energy affects the objects energy field. And for that matter, you do telekinesis when you move a pencil with your finger. Your atoms, MADE OF ENERGY in your hand, moves the atoms MADE OF ENERGY of the pencil. Just with telekinesis, you do this without the physical touch. But you are still using your mind to move energy, just like using your mind to move your arm and finger. Credit To NI for those examples. So, I hope that clears a few things up!

[Gumby123psi]

Magicdood, record a video of it, that is more than 200x200 in size, it's not black/white crappy quality, it's not super close-up and unfocused, you have to do the act on a glass table/transparent something, glass box if possible, you have to get any kind of static-electricity out of your body, and we have to be able to see both of your hands. You may never clip in the film, and only you may be nearby, during the filming. Maybe we dont have cameras that good. Ever think of that? And there HAVE been videos like that. My camera can go for like 30 seconds and you have to hold the button all the time and its super dark. And even if we did make a video like that. There is no way to prove it through a video. Theres a million ways to fake it. There is NO WAY to possibly convince you guys. You just have to experience it for yourselfves, theres no other way IMO. And you might wanna read this from NI's Training Manual found here: http://psipog.net/art-nis-tk-training-manual.html "Let's start with the most simple. I don't think it's a big secret and probably every physics teacher will confirm that we all are made of the same stuff: atoms. And all atoms are made of energy. They only differ from each other in size. So basically everything around us and we ourselves are pure energy. You can imagine the whole universe as a lake of energy and yourself as a drop of water in it. But how can you distinguish where that drop starts and where it ends? You are right. You can't. Separation is just an illusion. The computer in front of you is a part of your own energy field as well as you are a part of its energy field. You don't end at your skin. And this leads us to the conclusion that you are one with all the things around you (Screams of horror ). Separation is a useful illusion. Mankind would never progress if we thought that one being is a part of another being and we all are one. That would be a paradox for the competition between the human beings and therefore a break for the whole evolution. In many cases it's very useful to think about objects as separate things. In other cases, like in telekinesis, it's necessary to keep in mind that the psiwheel in front of you lies in your own energy field and therefore it can be affected by your energy. You don't believe it? Now touch that psiwheel with your finger. Did it move? Of course it did, because you used your energy in form of atoms of your finger to accelerate the molecules of the paper. Clever, huh? But even if you don't use your finger, it's possible through some mental processes to alter the state of your energy field and therefore to influence the paper on pin that lies inside of this field. It's possible to make objects move without direct physical contact. But at the end of the day it's still being affected by physical forces. They are just not present as the physical matter, atoms. These forces are based only on the energy. Atoms, the matter, are just a state of the energy, according to my school's technical library. Now that only means that energy doesn't have to be "visible" or "touchable" and it means that it's not only inside of yourself, but also lies around yourself. Did you ever think why gravitation exists? Nobody can explain why two objects attract each other. Think about it. According to astrophysics, even an object that lies thousands of light years away from you influences you in a very small way with its gravitational field. A gravitational field is an example of an energy field that never fades. It gets weaker but it never disappears completely. And that's another important principle: The Chaos Theory. The world is based on causes and consequences. You can find a math book about the Chaos Theory. The Chaos Theory says that no matter how small the cause may be, it will affect the whole system, the whole universe. Imagine a butterfly flying somewhere over India. The theory says that even this small movement may and does influence in a very small way the weather in United States. No matter what you do and how small and unimportant your actual actions are, they do change the whole universe. No matter how small the mental process in your head might seem, it does alter, in one way or another, the paper on pin in front of you. The stronger that mental process is the more effect you'll see. So how can a simple mental process, twitches of the nervous system, be strong enough to move an object outside the physical body? I can't answer that question. But if you think for example about the following situation it might show you a possible answer. Imagine yourself meditating and suddenly something explodes in front of your window. In the same moment your meditation is over. You get up and run away to see what's going on. It happened because the energy provided by the explosion was stronger than the energy invested in your meditation. Now imagine yourself meditating very deeply. Someone outside calls your name, but you don't realize it. Your body still hears it physically, but you don't realize it and keep meditating. This time the energy invested in your meditation was stronger than the energy used to call your name. Maybe it's just a crappy theory, but I'm 100% sure it's true. Energy flows where attention goes. Just think of playing pool / billiards. You shoot one of those balls and you miss. Now if you pay your whole attention and even visualize it happening you are most likely to succeed. The more attention and concentration you put forth, the more energy is provided to move the object in front of you. " Now, theres no arguing with that. If all thats true, wich it is, then its technically possible. Science says so. SCIENCE says that no matter how small the mental process, it affects the entire system in some way. When we do Telekinesis, we have to think some mental process and it affects objects. You cant argue with that.

[magicdood]

Yes, I do have a video! It's pretty good, but there are of course ways to fake any video. I'm not just gonna make a video so it can be ridiculed by you guys! And btw Gumby, I love that part of the article!

[The Wig]

Ps- I don't understand why it's hard to believe in telekinesis especially if you've taken physics. It's just the ablity to move energy. We are all energy bodies, why is it so impossible to be able to direct that energy at another object? On top of that "energy can't be destroyed" so what happens to us after we die? That energy doesn't just evaporate into space. It travels somewhere, and then taking into account that essentially all things are living...*mumbles into a never-ending rant* Peace No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. I think he was talking about the first post? But maybe not. Anyways, Telekinesis isn't bullshit, but I know that won't get through your thick skull. :p Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us. No, theres no seperate realities or anything. If it moves, it moves. None of that shit. And you ignored my entire post earlier. I love how you believe in Psi and that crap but don't believe in alternate universes...WHICH HAS A BASIS IN SCIENCE! Repeat with me: quantum mechanics. Does any other psychic have stuff to add or is it all just "I believe in psychics 'cause I can do it and I don't care who believes me!"?

[magicdood]

No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. We are energy. Matter is made up of and is energy. That is believed by scientist. WE ARE ENERGY. Proven scientifically. Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us. Obviously it was a joke. Identity X caught it...jeez lighten up. You are too serious. And also, WIG, just for the Record, everyone can do these things. And also, I'm being 100% honest when I say I don't mind that you do not believe me. Do you see me freaking out here? I'm not. It doesn't bother me. The fact is, I've proved it to myself. You telling me that it is not real does nothing.

[The Wig]

No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. We are energy. Matter is made up of and is energy. That is believed by scientist. WE ARE ENERGY. Proven scientifically. Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us. Obviously it was a joke. Identity X caught it...jeez lighten up. You are too serious. And also, WIG, just for the Record, everyone can do these things. And also, I'm being 100% honest when I say I don't mind that you do not believe me. Do you see me freaking out here? I'm not. It doesn't bother me. The fact is, I've proved it to myself. You telling me that it is not real does nothing. MATTER IS NOT ENERGY. If matter was energy, why would there have been a huge fuss when it was found out a matter -> energy conversion is possible? Here: http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/2-matter.htm MATTER IS NOT ENERGY once again. Don't even go there, because this is physics and you obviously know nothing of it. As for "it not bothering you", a few posts back you were 100% ready to prove to me you are psychic and even asked what you could do to prove it...so don't pull that.