Thread: sensing my alarm clock....

well, u know me already, but no clue on what this is. i can't even remember my dreams recently, so im not sure if i do it... prob. not...

Welcome to DV, mrs banana!

Many people are like that, with the alarm clock thing. I hate it.

SomeGuy, that picture is ridiculously cute.

Awww....thanx!!!! I know thats why i picked it...hehe...

Yeah, I've woken up minutes before my alarm a couple of times. It tends to happen more often if I go to sleep at a consistent time and if I have the curtains for my window drawn open.

Originally Posted by mrs. banana

i've noticed that while i'm sleeping, i can usually sense that my alarm clock is gonna go off before it really happens. i can't say how long before, because who knows the time difference in dream and the real world...5 minutes sleeping could be 3 hours in real life. when my alarm clock finally goes off, i say to myself (with a sigh) in my dream "there goes the alarm clock...i better wake up."

Yup, this is your beautiful biological clock at work - your circadian rhythym in sync with your suprachiasmatic nucleus.

The truth is, you are probably actually sensing the light levels. Do you usually get up at the same time? Have a window nearby?

Otherwise, you either have very strong sleep control or have an unconscious strict sense of how long you have been dreaming which would be very impressive.
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Methinks it all boils down to classical conditioning, if the alarm is set at the same time. For instance, I get up moments before my 3:00 alarm. =0

@Onus: Eh, perhaps not light levels (because it is winter, and only super lucky people get to sleep in until sunrise. >=C ).

Originally Posted by Abra

Methinks it all boils down to classical conditioning, if the alarm is set at the same time. For instance, I get up moments before my 3:00 alarm. =0

@Onus: Eh, perhaps not light levels (because it is winter, and only super lucky people get to sleep in until sunrise. >=C ).

There is a noticeable difference between about an hour before sunrise and midnight. Noticeable enough that you subconscious is easily capable on picking up on it.

Just a thought though... if days were getting longer (sunrise occurring earlier) would you normally get up naturally before your alarm because the sun gets out of sync with your internal clock? The opposite would be true if you were heading into winter and your alarm would be waking you more then you wake naturally.

Therefore, would this explain why everyone seems to feel crap in the morning when heading into winter?

I have not had my alarm wake me in years, though I do sleep with an alarm clock. I always wake up between five and fifteen minutes before it goes off, no matter what time I go to sleep.

When I leave it off on weekends, I can sleep past it - but not much. My subconscious seems to keep track of when it's on and doesn't like waking to it.

Originally Posted by arby

There is a noticeable difference between about an hour before sunrise and midnight. Noticeable enough that you subconscious is easily capable on picking up on it.

Just a thought though... if days were getting longer (sunrise occurring earlier) would you normally get up naturally before your alarm because the sun gets out of sync with your internal clock? The opposite would be true if you were heading into winter and your alarm would be waking you more then you wake naturally.

Therefore, would this explain why everyone seems to feel crap in the morning when heading into winter?

You actually hit Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) bang-on the head. Good job.

pj; that takes some strong sleep control. I admire you for reaching that capability and share it with you on moderate levels. The problem with me is I have a very sporadic schedule so it becomes difficult to even remember the day of the week sometimes...
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Originally Posted by O'nus

You actually hit Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) bang-on the head. Good job.
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oooo... seems like I have at least a mild version of that after looking it up. I knew people would have already researched it already though... =P

I didn't see anything in the articles about waking naturally vs. being woken however. Do you know if it makes any difference whether you wake naturally or are waken by an outside source? I just tried google but it was most unhelpful... XD

Yeh..seems like alot of people here experience this. I had it too, especially when I was on a rigid schedule...and it's the truth. I'd go to bed at around 11pm and have the alarm set for 7 am ish. By 645 I was wide awake, nervous and wired for the day....O'nus explained it well..apparently it's natural..

For further explanation:

- The alarm clock works because it is a loud irritating sound that alarms our system to come to consciousness.
- Our response is to get rid of that irritating sound
- Because we are sentient creatures, our bodies can predict this irritating sound and try to avoid hearing it in the first place by waking up before it goes off.

What do you think...?
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What I'm really trying to ask is if the alarm to come to consciousness could be detrimental. for reasons other then "that stupid alarm", is there any reason for it to make you depressed or less rejuvenated upon waking?

Originally Posted by arby

What I'm really trying to ask is if the alarm to come to consciousness could be detrimental. for reasons other then "that stupid alarm", is there any reason for it to make you depressed or less rejuvenated upon waking?

In truth, I have recently proposed to set a study on this very question and its relation to dream recall because I cannot find any publications on such.

However, I would hypothesize that your body still receives the same amount of rejuventation either way. Although waking up to an alarm is simply more irritating than waking up un-interrupted.

Furthermore, because you have an alarm, we can derive that you are also forcing yourself awake in order to do some task. Thus, the alarm can represent responsibilities that you may not want to endeavour and, thus, have a very bad day. (ie. waking up on the wrong side of the bed.. :p)

What do you think...?
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Originally Posted by O'nus

In truth, I have recently proposed to set a study on this very question and its relation to dream recall because I cannot find any publications on such.

However, I would hypothesize that your body still receives the same amount of rejuventation either way. Although waking up to an alarm is simply more irritating than waking up un-interrupted.

Furthermore, because you have an alarm, we can derive that you are also forcing yourself awake in order to do some task. Thus, the alarm can represent responsibilities that you may not want to endeavour and, thus, have a very bad day. (ie. waking up on the wrong side of the bed.. :p)

What do you think...?
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Ah, cool. When you do the study, I'll help any way that I can. Need any personnel accounts or anything and i'll try my best =) Then be sure to post your results here =)

I would wonder what actually does trigger the return to consciousness without interruption however. If it is a chemical, what would happen if that chemical were not present in your day? Chemically speaking, should there be a difference between waken by an alarm and not?

Yeah, on the topic of psychological reasons, I always seem to stay in bed and I feel almost physically unable to wake up for a long while. But then, the second that my parents are out of the house, it suddenly seems to lift and I can get up. I can attribute this to the fact that if they saw my normal morning routine, (get up, check stuff on the computer, THEN get ready) they would complain about it. The problem is though, I find that if I do not do SOMETHING before trying to drag myself through the morning exercises, I never properly wake up.

Such small things can make such big differences in the day as a whole. Its really interesting. I've been sort of poking and prodding myself mentally when I'm like this to try and find out more about it. Its possible to overcome it with sheer determination but thats no good to have to do every day =P I wanna find the lil mental loophole so that I can try and rid myself of all these sorts of things easily and properly.

Originally Posted by arby

Ah, cool. When you do the study, I'll help any way that I can. Need any personnel accounts or anything and i'll try my best =) Then be sure to post your results here =)

I would wonder what actually does trigger the return to consciousness without interruption however. If it is a chemical, what would happen if that chemical were not present in your day? Chemically speaking, should there be a difference between waken by an alarm and not?

What wakes us up:

The ascending reticular activating system:


Early on, someone noticed that if the midbrain of a cat was transected (at point A, below), the cat fell into a coma - their EEG became permanently synchronized. This finding alone is not too surprising. However, if the transection was made down in the medulla (at point B), the cat was only paralyzed, not comatose. The most surprising phenomenon was that if the rostral stump of the transected midbrain was electrically stimulated (blue arrow), the cat "woke up" - according to its EEG.



From these experiments it was concluded that there was some pathway originating in the pons or midbrain that ran forward into the cerebrum and stimulated wakefulness. The pathway was thought to originate with a group of neurons in the brainstem, the reticular formation. Therefore it was named the ascending reticular activating system.

They were close. In fact, the ascending pathway originates from a group of neurons around the fourth ventricle in the rostral pons (near midbrain). Most of these neurons are acetylcholinergic, and project to the thalamus, controlling whether the gate is open or closed. The key is in the action of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine cannot, by itself, activate or shut down the neurons of the thalamus. Instead it sensitizes them. By slightly depolarizing the thalamic neurons (it does this by closing a hyperpolarizing potassium channel), the ascending system can make the thalamus more sensitive to sensory input. This situation would correspond to an awake, alert state. Let's look at the whole system:


The acetylcholinergic neurons project both to the sensory areas of thalamus (such as VPL) and to the reticular nucleus, a layer of cells that wraps around the thalamus like the rind of an orange. This "reticular" has nothing to do with the "reticular" in the brainstem! The fact that the ascending reticular activating system targets the reticular nucleus is only maddening coincidence. The reticular nucleus of the thalamus has a general inhibitory effect on sensory thalamus. Now, although both areas are receiving acetylcholine, they have different receptors and respond in different ways. Sensory thalamus is sensitized by acetylcholine (or "facilitated") as described above, but the reticular nucleus is inhibited by acetylcholine. We can redraw the situation like this:


So what happens when the brain is awake? The cholinergic cells are active, so they facilitate sensory thalamus and inhibit the reticular nucleus. The inhibition of the reticular nucleus actually excites the sensory thalamus as well (negative x negative = positive). As a result the thalamus lets all sensory information through, and cortex is highly active and desynchronized dealing with all the input.
And when the brain is asleep? Now the ascending system is quiet, so sensory thalamus is not particularly sensitive. In addition, the reticular nucleus is freed from inhibition, so it can inhibit the sensory thalamus. The net effect is that thalamus is very insensitive to sensory stimuli, the gate is closed, and the cortex can rest. An interesting property of the thalamic neurons is that when hyperpolarized, they have slow intrinsic waves of activity, similar to the pacemaker of the heart. This activity may be the source of the slow synchronous pattern of the sleeping EEG. It also may function to keep the cortex in shape, ensuring that even when you are asleep the cortical neurons are active.


Summary:

Awake:
ACh system active
Sensory thalamus facilitated
Reticular nucleus inhibited
Thalamocortical neurons active
EEG desynchronous

Asleep:
ACh system inactive
Sensory thalamus inhibited
Reticular nucleus active
Thalamocortical neurons in slow rhythm
EEG synchronous

(Thanks to University of Washington for info)

I hope this has been enlightening.
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Yeah but guys... she is talking about a waking prematurely. She wakes up mins before her clock does! That is her concern. And if her REM cycle is anything like mine, she is waking up BEFORE it ends!!! How would her body react that early in the middle of REM?

i have the ability to wake up at any time i want.. by just thinking of the amount of time i want to stay asleep. like if i sleep at 2 and want to be awake at 9 ill tell myself to wake up in 7 hours and ill be awake almost on the minute. (recently ive been using this to wake up about 4.5 hours in and then trying for LDs)

it could be like that, you obviously know what time you set the clock for, and thus your body wakes up at that time before your alarm

Originally Posted by xXSomeGuyXx

Yeah but guys... she is talking about a waking prematurely. She wakes up mins before her clock does! That is her concern. And if her REM cycle is anything like mine, she is waking up BEFORE it ends!!! How would her body react that early in the middle of REM?

Read my above post, I thoroughly explained the entire biological cycle of how the body awakens and falls asleep.

Example explanations I gave:
- Light cycles are mixed or unsynchronous
- Conditioned to avoid the alarm
- SAD
- etc.

If I missed it somehow, can you point out how I missed the point more precisely...?
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No, because she obviously wouldn't be thing about that before bed!

Originally Posted by xXSomeGuyXx

No, because she obviously wouldn't be thing about that before bed!

Thinking about what..?
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the time she will get up. i just got her interested today, so I know she wasnt thinking real hard about anything sleep related.

Originally Posted by xXSomeGuyXx

the time she will get up. i just got her interested today, so I know she wasnt thinking real hard about anything sleep related.

That was my point though - you don't have to think about it because it's an unconscious relation.

I am curious to ask her if she regrets getting up and has daily tasks lately that she really does not want to deal with. Or, if she is having higher stress levels now than usual.

Also, I would like to ask if she has perhaps changed her work schedule, or moved, etc.
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'twas from annther post. not urs onus.