Thread: DreamViews: Lucid Dream Book Project - Want in?

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I know this is your pet project and all, but sorry I simply disagree with the morality behind it.

There is no sounds reasoning behind taking freely available information and selling it for profit. It undermines the entire point of this website.

The reason I continue to mention profit, and yes it certainly does warrant an eyebrow raise... only in the direction of the owners of dreamviews. Is because the idea of selling other peoples ideas that were freely shared is wrong.

How would you feel about your local coffe house, recording everything you've ever said there, and then releasing a book called "the conversations of people in coffee houses"
Then making the claim that they needed to do it to help promote their coffee house and fund its upkeep?
Would you not feel a little abused and offended?
Even if the wording is changed, there is a certain underhandedness about abusing peoples trust this way.

And most importantly, the financial gain of the project, regardless of if the project is in its early stages, is absolutely paramount to the interests of those who participate.

I can imagine no other scenario where you would ask for peoples time, energy and creativity... and for no one to care about the final purpose, profit and use of their work.

Surely these are basic elementary factors that should be established before asking for people to work?

Throwing the word charity into the conversation in a non commital way, is actually quite underhand. You are either are going to give to charity or not, and again THIS NEEDS TO BE ESTABLISHED LONG BEFORE PEOPLE WORK ON THE PROJECT. Because they way you've mentioned it, you have left it wide open so that when the project is finished you can simply say "oh yeah, couldnt sort out the charity thing, so yeah... it's all going to the people who own the site"


If the idea is to provide information to the public on lucid dreaming,
then why not put together an Ebook, free of charge?
or create a section of the website that collates all this information?
You could even link to a printable PDF file, again for free, that could be printed into a book for those who want it... on a website like cafepress or the book equivilant (can't remember if cafe press do that or not). Giving people MORE choice, and less cost. In fact, giving people the choice NOT TO PAY. Hell you could even have a link on that free page to a charity, asking people to make donations in return for the free download.

I can see no reason that the above option makes far more sense.
The only logical explanation for the route you wish to take, seems to be a combination of profit and self gratification, both at the cost of the forum users.

This post is about money, author content and market's. I already answered those questions.

Content/Money: On DV, the author's posts belong to the author's. Especially original content. As I said earlier, we already got their permission to use their techniques (which will be the only thing that's used from DV) and they will be compensated should we decide to personally profit from this. If we do not personally profit, then it will be going to a charity or LD research organization (as of this post). I'd also like to RE-EMPHASIZE that we have not talked about money in depth, but the book staff already know that this is a volunteer based project.

Please do not re-ask the same questions again, read my second to last paragraph in the reply I last gave to you.

I'm at work at the mo and don't have a lot of time so will post properly later but...

^ space is right

Originally Posted by Jeff777

This post is about money, author content and market's. I already answered those questions.

Content/Money: On DV, the author's posts belong to the author's. Especially original content. As I said earlier, we already got their permission to use their techniques (which will be the only thing that's used from DV) and they will be compensated should we decide to personally profit from this. If we do not personally profit, then it will be going to a charity or LD research organization (as of this post). I'd also like to RE-EMPHASIZE that we have not talked about money in depth, but the book staff already know that this is a volunteer based project.

Please do not re-ask the same questions again, read my second to last paragraph in the reply I last gave to you.

Ok, if the Authors posts belong to the Author, How can I request all my previous posts be removed? As my propery I no longer wish to share them.
This is a reasonable request is it not? And would offer proof of the validity of your statement.

Also, another question... Who has the final choice on if the project is for personal profit or charity?

Also, as is the nature of forums, many people come on here and quote the work of others from other sources. How is that going to be accounted for?
I have seen many techniques that were developed outside dreamviews, by people who do not use dreamviews, but are posted (and often reworded - often ommiting important details, like copyright) by dreamview members.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

I'm at work at the mo and don't have a lot of time so will post properly later but...

^ space is right

Are you saying that because you legitimately believe he does? Or are you saying that because you legitimately like the guy? -points at your signature-

If it's not the latter (which I hope it isn't) then when you have time, feel free to post your concerns that I have not already thoroughly explained to space.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Are you saying that because you legitimately believe he does? Or are you saying that because you legitimately like the guy? -points at your signature-

If it's not the latter (which I hope it isn't) then when you have time, feel free to post your concerns that I have not already thoroughly explained to space.

Neither.

I'm saying it purely because he's hot

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I know this is your pet project and all, but sorry I simply disagree with the morality behind it.

There is no sounds reasoning behind taking freely available information and selling it for profit. It undermines the entire point of this website.

The reason I continue to mention profit, and yes it certainly does warrant an eyebrow raise... only in the direction of the owners of dreamviews. Is because the idea of selling other peoples ideas that were freely shared is wrong.

How would you feel about your local coffe house, recording everything you've ever said there, and then releasing a book called "the conversations of people in coffee houses"
Then making the claim that they needed to do it to help promote their coffee house and fund its upkeep?
Would you not feel a little abused and offended?
Even if the wording is changed, there is a certain underhandedness about abusing peoples trust this way.

And most importantly, the financial gain of the project, regardless of if the project is in its early stages, is absolutely paramount to the interests of those who participate.

I can imagine no other scenario where you would ask for peoples time, energy and creativity... and for no one to care about the final purpose, profit and use of their work.

Surely these are basic elementary factors that should be established before asking for people to work?

Throwing the word charity into the conversation in a non commital way, is actually quite underhand. You are either are going to give to charity or not, and again THIS NEEDS TO BE ESTABLISHED LONG BEFORE PEOPLE WORK ON THE PROJECT. Because they way you've mentioned it, you have left it wide open so that when the project is finished you can simply say "oh yeah, couldnt sort out the charity thing, so yeah... it's all going to the people who own the site"


If the idea is to provide information to the public on lucid dreaming,
then why not put together an Ebook, free of charge?
or create a section of the website that collates all this information?
You could even link to a printable PDF file, again for free, that could be printed into a book for those who want it... on a website like cafepress or the book equivilant (can't remember if cafe press do that or not). Giving people MORE choice, and less cost. In fact, giving people the choice NOT TO PAY. Hell you could even have a link on that free page to a charity, asking people to make donations in return for the free download.

I can see no sound reason why the above option isn't preferable,
The only logical explanation for the route you wish to take, seems to be a combination of profit and self gratification, both at the cost of the forum users.


Taking peoples ideas and then selling them back to them.

Well. First of all, the book doesn't aim to spread a new idea, but to sum up the current literature about Lucid Dreaming in a single and comprehensive book. This has been done thousands of times, with millions of books sold.

Basically you're saying that a software programmer shouldn't sell his software, but give it away, because he didn't create anything new; he only organised a bunch of zeros and ones. You forget the work that he put into developing it.

That said, I am myself in favour of non-profit distribution, including charity or cost-of-production. If the book ever gets sold for profit, I will probably refuse my part in it.

In the initial times of the book, one of the possibilities was donating the profit to Dreamviews, but now this is no longer an option, because no-one is willing to just give their time and work to a profitable company like Top Cola.

One of the reasons why we didn't decide what we'll do with the profit, is because we don't even know if the project will ever leave the sketch desk. We are not professional writers or publishers, and this is being done in our free time.

Another thing: e-books suck. I wouldn't want to spend time on the project to keep it as a bunch of data on the Internet. I'd like the book to be published, as any other scientific publication.

Finally, understand that this project is being done by a bunch of bored people on the Internet from all over the world, and not by a bunch of boring, bureaucratic lawyers. You could have helped us much more by stating your opinions as recommendations instead of criticism.

Hope that explains it. In any case, thank you for the interest.

Seriously, I'll post later. I've got to go replace somebody's hip joint now...

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Another thing: e-books suck. I wouldn't want to spend time on the project to keep it as a bunch of data on the Internet. I'd like the book to be published, as any other scientific publication.

Then why not offer a free version of the ebook to download also?
If a hard copy is desirable for those working on the project, why not simply operate a print on demand option, a service which is readily available. Giving people the choice, rather than limiting their choice with a financial sting too.

Ebooks and print on demand, offer a quick easily updated format, and if the sharing of information is the main concern, surely this would be the most viable option for keeping the content fresh and accurate.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Finally, understand that this project is being done by a bunch of bored people on the Internet from all over the world, and not by a bunch of boring, bureaucratic lawyers. You could have helped us much more by stating your opinions as recommendations instead of criticism.

I'm sorry to be critical, I am simply expressing my concern that information available in these forums is not going to be easily traced to the original creator. Also it is naive to believe that everyone who posts ideas on this forum, or other sources, would want their ideas published.

I feel one of the true joys of this time in history, is that we are able to access information freely. It opens education to all, rather than limiting it to those with money. Hence the success of sites such as Wikipedia.
The idea of this publication, seems to me, to contradict what it is that makes sites like DreamViews popular.

Online information offers among other things:
Free information, Discussion, joint exploration, fluidity, "breaking news", community etc. etc.

Compared to solid publications that are:
Expensive, limited in perspective, one sided, fixed and rapidly outdated etc. etc.

A question for other forum members: Who here is concerned with or disagrees with their posts being used in a profit making publication?

Also, shouldn't this question have been asked of the forum members before the project was started?


But most importantly,
I think the joy of most published books comes from the knowledge that the author is an authority on the subject with a proven history and track record in the field. This is the same reason people pay to go to lectures from Experts, but do not pay to go and have a chat with fellow enthusiasts.

Whilst the joy of online communitys and sites like this, is the shared knowledge between individuals all with varied knowledge. The joint sharing/learning and exploration.

Both offer unqiue perspectives, but I don't think the success of a forum is justification for a publication.
This forum is not popular simply for the information it offers, but for the discussion and up to date "reviews" of methods etc. that it offers. Almost all the basic information that would end up in the book, is already published. And I like many others, will still regard the work of LaBerge, more authorative, than a book cooked up by "bored people across the globe" (Kromoh words not mine )


But in all seriousness...

What can this book offer, that the forum/website cannot?

And what justification that does not contradict the idea of "sharing information" and "giving people options", can be given for publishing this book for profit?

If the book can be made written without cost, and the writers, original posters and "team" are working for free... then, why charge?
Print on demand is there for people who want to hold something physical and that can be achieved by simply formatting a free downloadable PDF correctly, and linking to a print on demand website.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Then why not offer a free version of the ebook to download also?
If a hard copy is desirable for those working on the project, why not simply operate a print on demand option, a service which is readily available. Giving people the choice, rather than limiting their choice with a financial sting too.

Ebooks and print on demand, offer a quick easily updated format, and if the sharing of information is the main concern, surely this would be the most viable option for keeping the content fresh and accurate.



I'm sorry to be critical, I am simply expressing my concern that information available in these forums is not going to be easily traced to the original creator. Also it is naive to believe that everyone who posts ideas on this forum, or other sources, would want their ideas published.

I feel one of the true joys of this time in history, is that we are able to access information freely. It opens education to all, rather than limiting it to those with money. Hence the success of sites such as Wikipedia.
The idea of this publication, seems to me, to contradict what it is that makes sites like DreamViews popular.

Online information offers among other things:
Free information, Discussion, joint exploration, fluidity, "breaking news", community etc. etc.

Compared to solid publications that are:
Expensive, limited in perspective, one sided, fixed and rapidly outdated etc. etc.

A question for other forum members: Who here is concerned with or disagrees with their posts being used in a profit making publication?

Also, shouldn't this question have been asked of the forum members before the project was started?


But most importantly,
I think the joy of most published books comes from the knowledge that the author is an authority on the subject with a proven history and track record in the field.
Whilst the joy of online communitys and sites like this, is the shared knowledge between individuals all with varied knowledge. The joint sharing/learning and exploration.

Both offer unqiue perspectives, but I don't think the success of a forum is justification for a publication.
This forum is not popular simply for the information it offers, but for the discussion and up to date "reviews" of methods etc. that it offers. Almost all the basic information that would end up in the book, is already published. And I like many others, will still regard the work of LaBerge, more authorative, than a book cooked up by "bored people across the globe" (Kromoh words not mine )


But in all seriousness...

What can this book offer, that the forum/website cannot?

And what justification that does not contradict the idea of "sharing information" and "giving people options", can be given for publishing this book for profit?

As I said, I'm not against a free publication, but I'm not the only one to decide this. On-demand publication is, I believe, the best option we have.

If you want free information, search it for yourself. As you said it yourself, the book wouldn't bring anything new. We're just aiming to make a beginner-friendly concentration of the information gathered so far. Not only would it help spread the word, but also would give more credibility to LDing.

We won't be using people's post without permission. In fact, if you had taken the time to investigate before criticising, you'd see that I myself acquired the permission of some tutorial authors to use the information from their tutorials.

The aim is to make a credible book, specially in the scientific way. You don't need to be a groundbreaking authority on a subject to write a very decent literary revision.

You want a differential? This book offers the ease of providing all the information gathered about LDing so far in a single publication. If you don't want to spend a few bucks on buying it, go there and research it for yourself. You don't need to buy Karl Marx's book to read about capitalism and socialism online.

Again, the idea is not to make profit over other people's ideas, but to make profit over our work. I have explained this before; stop being repetitive.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

--

Problem with the tutorials, is that most of them are just rewordings of other peoples ideas. People who may not use the forum.

For example getting the writer of the MILD tutorials permission to use it, is not the same as asking for LaBerges permission.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

This book offers the ease of providing all the information gathered about LDing so far in a single publication. If you don't want to spend a few bucks on buying it, go there and research it for yourself. You don't need to buy Karl Marx's book to read about capitalism and socialism online.

And why exactly can this not be done on the website itself?
I thought the idea of DreamViews was to: "provide all the information gathered about LDing so far in a single website"

Or is the website now going to become a secondary resource for a publication?

Why not simply put the effort into improving the information available on the site? and then offer a downloadable, and printable version?

Without wishing to sound harsh, the only realy explanations i can see are:
Profit and fame.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Again, the idea is not to make profit over other people's ideas, but to make profit over our work. I have explained this before; stop being repetitive.

But the work itself, is only taking place to make this profit.
If the work had already been done and then you realised "oh we could actually sell this", then your statement would make sense.
But it's in it's early days right now, so the motivation preceeds the effort.
And Jeff has already pointed out that people volunteered thier free work on the project.

The ideas are already available,
and the medium is already available.
Right here.
Why not just make the site a whole lot better?

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Problem with the tutorials, is that most of them are just rewordings of other peoples ideas. People who may not use the forum.

For example getting the writer of the MILD tutorials permission to use it, is not the same as asking for LaBerges permission.

As long as we give him credit for the name, and don't paraphrase from his book, we're allowed to describe the technique. After all, LaBerge wasn't the inventor of self-suggestion.

And why exactly can this not be done on the website itself?
I thought the idea of DreamViews was to: "provide all the information gathered about LDing so far in a single website"

Or is the website now going to become a secondary resource for a publication?

Why not simply put the effort into improving the information available on the site? and then offer a downloadable, and printable version?

Without wishing to sound harsh, the only realy explanations i can see are:
Profit and fame.

We are not Dreamviews, and we do not represent Dreamviews. We are just a bunch of people who coincidentally frequent the same forum. We could develop the project on another site if we wanted to.

Profit and fame? Well, that's maybe what your mind thinks. My main motivation is to help spread lucid dreaming. I myself wouldn't mind having my work published for free, but I find it disrespectful towards the other authors if they don't get the profit for their work.

But the work itself, is only taking place to make this profit.

Not really.

If the work had already been done and then you realised "oh we could actually sell this", then your statement would make sense.
But it's in it's early days right now, so the motivation preceeds the effort.
And Jeff has already pointed out that people volunteered thier free work on the project.

The ideas are already available,
and the medium is already available.
Right here.
Why not just make the site a whole lot better?

That's why we haven't decided if we'll sell the book or not yet. I'd like to see it finished before we decide about selling it or not, and what to do with the profit. You're just making lots of smoke out of no fire, and saying the same thing in different ways.

I'm still waiting for an answer as to what process I need to go through to have my posts removed from the dreamviews database.

And as much as i respect your opinion Kromoh, I still hold to my previously posted opinions about the book.

You keep saying Take! They're not taking other peoples ideas! Its been explained at least three times now! Anyone who wouldn't like to contribute their content to the book can just decline, because their not taking, their asking and then (hopefully) been giventhe content. But not just given, compensated via the money made from the book. You keep rephrasing your questions when at heart they're the same ones over and over again. Your like the last guy in "twelve angry men".

Edit: Also, your essentially saying every lucid dreamer in the world is on thisn site. Don't you think there are hundreds, if not thousands (If not tens of thousands!) of people who are curious about there dreams? Pure luck made me find this site, and there is no way i would've found Ewold without it. If this book was published properly, the practice of Lucid dreaming could gain the respect it deserves.

We are researching and finding our own information also.

All very interesting, but i don't want anything i've written in my posts to be used in any form, so once again...

I'm still waiting for an answer as to what process I need to go through to have my posts removed from the dreamviews database.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

All very interesting, but i don't want anything i've written in my posts to be used in any form, so once again...

I'm still waiting for an answer as to what process I need to go through to have my posts removed from the dreamviews database.

Use your common sense and PM an admin.

Originally Posted by mrdeano

Use your common sense and PM an admin.

Tried in the past, they wern't helpful and passed the buck.
So, I'm going to keep asking publicly until someone actually listens.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Tried in the past, they wern't helpful and passed the buck.
So, I'm going to keep asking publicly until someone actually listens.

Unfortunately for you, getting in contact with an admin is the only thing you can do. Admins are the only users who are able to delete mass amounts of posts.


asher Profile PM
DuB Profile PM
Man of Steel Profile PM
Wavefunction Profile PM


^^^

You can now stop asking the question.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Tried in the past, they wern't helpful and passed the buck.
So, I'm going to keep asking publicly until someone actually listens.

If you just had used your common sense, you would have realised that you would've been asked if they wanted to take information from your posts and that as such there is no need to have your posts removed.
I don't know (I'm not here an awful lot), but guessing from DreamQueen's signature, there are a few great ones in there. We wouldn't want to miss those, would we?
So now, please, I've just wasted half an hour reading through a discussion which could've been contained in two posts. Your concerns are understood, and it's not like nobody's thought about it. You've spawned some great discussion, but at the moment you're just wasting both your and our time.

If you don't mind, read through both your, Jeff's and Kromoh's posts again, there are plenty of questions and answers there. If you have anything new to say, feel free to post again. Just don't go around wasting more time.

Thanks.

I believe the DV policy is not to delete accounts or posts when a member leaves You could always become a staff member and use that status to delete your posts

Originally Posted by Shift

I believe the DV policy is not to delete accounts or posts when a member leaves You could always become a staff member and use that status to delete your posts

Whoa, let's not go crazy. If he wants to leave, let him. We'll just disregard his posts like normal for people who leave.

Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

Whoa, let's not go crazy. If he wants to leave, let him. We'll just disregard his posts like normal for people who leave.

That's my point

Oh good! I thought you were serious. *exhales*

I'm all for selling the book for personal profit. Unlike some people, it's been harder than I hoped finding a job as a teenager. I need some cash so I can buy a car, get money for college, etc.

I have a proposal: Grant each individual working on the book a portion of the profit proportionate to their work and allow them to decide whether or not to donate the money.