Thread: Do your control your dreams? Or do your dreams still control you?

Damn,

I really don't know where to begin this post.. Like, I read every single of the OP's post, and still, I am as confused as ever.. Can some one here, with some common sense please explain to me what this zenTARD person is saying-- I would like to say a few things, but I want to get the story straight first...

Thanks

Spiritofthewolf

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Damn,

I really don't know where to begin this post.. Like, I read every single of the OP's post, and still, I am as confused as ever.. Can some one here, with some common sense please explain to me what this zenTARD person is saying-- I would like to say a few things, but I want to get the story straight first...

Thanks

Spiritofthewolf

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

So you're basically saying that having to work for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams.

That's what I got out of it.

I'm still going to wait for a description of what he was truly trying to get at.. Because I feel like I am gonna have a good thing to say afterwards

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

I'm still going to wait for a description of what he was truly trying to get at.. Because I feel like I am gonna have a good thing to say afterwards

What ass?

What is the point of me trying to explain what I mean if you already have something your going to say afterward? And why would you even say that? Didn't you just give your plan away to me? Now I know your going to say a "good" thing afterward. Which I can only guess is some snarky remark to show that you "got me."

Also, if I'm a retard why couldn't you figure out what I said?

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

So you're basically saying that having to work for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. Wow, I've never seen an excuse for being too lazy to lucid dream covered in so much "zen" bullshit.

And you call me enslaved because I'm willing to work for something. Sorry buddy, but some things in life take effort. Deal with it.

I have lucid dream before. I worked very hard to achieve Lucid dreaming a long while back but it seemed to make life complicated always having to work at it and putting it on a high pedestal. Being lucid in a dream without effort doesn't happen much but why should regular dreams be avoided?

If one needs to maintain and work for something that means that there are goals. Freedom to me comes from the realization that nothing needs to worked on since you already are free. Effort in order to maintain a certain state comes at a sense to keep control over your surroundings. This stems from insecurity. It seems like enslavement to me.

Just like you can breath with or without effort. When you breathe with effort, while you may get better at breathing, you can become more miserable and not enjoy the finer things in life.

Ummmmm, excuse me?

I wasn't going to say anything negative about you.. Just because I said " A Good thing" doesn't mean it was going to be anything negative about you, or anything you said.. You assuming that, just makes an ass out of yourself... not me.. so please reframe from calling me an ass...

I am trying to figure out what exactly you are talking about to have a conversation, not to put you down or your views down, I don't have time for that, ask anybody that knows me on this site and they will tell you that....

So, can we start again?

can you PLEASE go more in depth on what you are trying to get to?

thank you

spiritofthewolf

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

What ass?

What is the point of me trying to explain what I mean if you already have something your going to say afterward? And why would you even say that? Didn't you just give your plan away to me? Now I know your going to say a "good" thing afterward. Which I can only guess is some snarky remark to show that you "got me."

Also, if I'm a retard why couldn't you figure out what I said?



I have lucid dream before. I worked very hard to achieve Lucid dreaming a long while back but it seemed to make life complicated always having to work at it and putting it on a high pedestal. Being lucid in a dream without effort doesn't happen much but why should regular dreams be avoided?

If one needs to maintain and work for something that means that there are goals. Freedom to me comes from the realization that nothing needs to worked on since you already are free. Effort in order to maintain a certain state comes at a sense to keep control over your surroundings. This stems from insecurity. It seems like enslavement to me.

Just like you can breath with or without effort. When you breathe with effort, while you may get better at breathing, you can become more miserable and not enjoy the finer things in life.

Okay so from what I have gathered so far, you have had Lucid Dreams before, but you don't like to overlook the non-lucid dreams either. Which I can understand that, I love dreams in general because of the fact that you never know where your going to end up--and you never know what you could gain from that... Now if you were Lucid you can miss out on that opportunity (if a non LD had something meaningful).


So I can see where you are coming from, yes Lucid Dreaming does take effort, it takes the patience to learn, and the routine to keep at it, but honestly, it's not like working a 15 hour job or anything like that.

Now are you the type of person that enjoys non lucid dreams, better then lucid dreams?

I am still wondering what you are trying to explain through all this, I believe I have gathered some stuff so far--or not--but just curious

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Okay so from what I have gathered so far, you have had Lucid Dreams before, but you don't like to overlook the non-lucid dreams either. Which I can understand that, I love dreams in general because of the fact that you never know where your going to end up--and you never know what you could gain from that... Now if you were Lucid you can miss out on that opportunity (if a non LD had something meaningful).


So I can see where you are coming from, yes Lucid Dreaming does take effort, it takes the patience to learn, and the routine to keep at it, but honestly, it's not like working a 15 hour job or anything like that.

Now are you the type of person that enjoys non lucid dreams, better then lucid dreams?

I am still wondering what you are trying to explain through all this, I believe I have gathered some stuff so far--or not--but just curious

My bad, you did say "zenTard," so I thought you were trying to degrade me. This will probably be the last post until tomorrow since I need to go to sleep.

There are several points I'm tackling. Robot Butler made some good points. I hope he logs in tomorrow.

1) Even when you "control" your dreams, you are still driven to make yourself lucid in hopes of attaining some benefit from your lucid dreams. Indirectly, you dreams, or the context thereof, control you. If dreams weren't of any importance, would it be safe to say there one wouldn't even bother to achieve lucidity?

2) I started lucid dreaming do to the fact that I felt "free" and I could fly, etc. But with the realization of the point above dreams still held importance to me and so I figured I wasn't truly free in the sense that dreams still were able to sway me and my "happiness." Also to maintain that state causes one--if they fail, unhappiness.

3) I guess there is another type of "dream style." You don't use tricks to become aware but rather "it is." Every action becomes an action unto it self--meaning there is no implied reason to do such an action during a dream or in real life. It is through direct experience. When you go the other route you need to constantly use tricks/skills/work to be conscious during a dream because it isn't your natural state to do so.

For example. So many people aren't aware of what is going around them. Many people are in their heads thinking about the past and future,etc. To become conscious one just needs to be aware of the Now, the moment. This doesn't require effort, in fact, it requires no effort. You simply allow yourself to be aware of your surroundings. The more effort you put into being in the Now--the harder it becomes. You can't enjoy the Now since your trying too hard to be there. I hope this analogy makes more sense.

Okay, I think I see where you are getting at. I understood point number 2 really well.

What I gathered, and correct me if i am wrong, is that, no matter what you do to gain Lucidity or "Be free"--your dreams are always going to effect you. Even if it's in a negative way, so therefore, you are never truly "Free" because there is just no humanly possible way to make your dreams not effect you??

If that is way off, then i am sorry hahahaha

Too bad you didn't tackle any of my points. I still fail to see how you can enslave yourself or be enslaved by yourself - much less do that by having goals.

Sorry to break it to you - but you're a hypocrite. You can't not have goals nor work at things. It's a goal of yours to be "free" and "without goals." You worked at it by ceasing your lucid dreaming efforts and probably other goals. You're specifically trying to have freedom to reach your goal of freedom.

Also, by your logic, either way your dreams control you. Either you strive for lucidity and that "controls" you, or you go through your dreams unconscious and controlled.

Not only that, with your third point you say that lucidity is good as long as you don't make any effort toward it, and living in the now is awesome. So admit it, you're just lazy. It's all right, I'm lazy too. But I'm not about to call hardworking people slaves.

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

1) Even when you "control" your dreams, you are still driven to make yourself lucid in hopes of attaining some benefit from your lucid dreams. Indirectly, you dreams, or the context thereof, control you. If dreams weren't of any importance, would it be safe to say there one wouldn't even bother to achieve lucidity?

2) I started lucid dreaming do to the fact that I felt "free" and I could fly, etc. But with the realization of the point above dreams still held importance to me and so I figured I wasn't truly free in the sense that dreams still were able to sway me and my "happiness." Also to maintain that state causes one--if they fail, unhappiness.

In both of those, you talked about how dreams have importance to you, which in turn makes your happiness rely on whether or not you have lucid dreams. What I don't understand is why having something be important to you is such a bad thing. Like it or not, your happiness is always going to rely on something external, whether it be a relationship, having a good job, or, yes, lucid dreaming. Having nothing be important to you would be a sad existence indeed. You wouldn't care about anyone but yourself and you wouldn't have any motivation to do anything. I'm not sure how you can be happy or "free" without doing anything. Oftentimes the best things in life are the things that you have to work for and the things that have both ups and downs. In avoiding things that require effort and things that could backfire, you are limiting yourself to a very small assortment of tried-and-true activities.

For example. So many people aren't aware of what is going around them. Many people are in their heads thinking about the past and future,etc. To become conscious one just needs to be aware of the Now, the moment. This doesn't require effort, in fact, it requires no effort. You simply allow yourself to be aware of your surroundings. The more effort you put into being in the Now--the harder it becomes. You can't enjoy the Now since your trying too hard to be there. I hope this analogy makes more sense.

I actually agree with you here. Too many people just go through their daily lives like zombies, not really seeing or hearing anything, just living on autopilot. I'm sorry to say that I'm in that group of people, although I've improved greatly in the past couple of years.

At the same time, it isn't a good idea to always live only in the present. It's important to think about the future so that you'll have a future. If I only thought about what I wanted at that exact moment, I would sleep in every day, waste all my money, and not go to school. If I continued to think only of the present I would just keep spiraling downward, and I would be neither free nor happy.

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

1) Even when you "control" your dreams, you are still driven to make yourself lucid in hopes of attaining some benefit from your lucid dreams. Indirectly, you dreams, or the context thereof, control you. If dreams weren't of any importance, would it be safe to say there one wouldn't even bother to achieve lucidity?

If we take what you say here seriously, then it turns out that we should all immediately creep into our graves and die. Because every desire can be attributed to hoping to attain some benefit.

I can still go to the gym just as a "direct experience." It has no sway over me meaning that if I missed the gym I wouldn't get overly upset about it--I can just enjoy the gym. The reasons to why I go to work out are absent. It isn't because I want to become somebody else, etc. I sincerely like working out just for the sake of working out. Every action (or goal if you want to view it that way) becomes an action onto itself rather than for some paramount goal that can eventually be lost. If that makes sense.

It's hard to believe that somebody can go to gym as a direct experience but be unable to do the same with LDing. I think you're living under the influence of a self-created illusion.

Moderation. If you feel you're working on something too much, don't work so hard.

I can't really argue with you, because I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You're saying that working on the ability to lucid dream, which is basically the ability to experience anything you want, is related to insecurity. Lucid dreaming isn't about control. It's about the experiences you have with that control that you can't in real life. So first you say that comes from insecurity, then because of that it's enslavement. What the fuck. It's like saying being a king is enslavement because you have to work for that power. Sure, having responsibilities can't be called true freedom, but it's not enslavement by any means.

Either way, nobody can be free with your definition, which is "no effort." Freedom is the ability to choose whether to make an effort or not, and have the experiences you want. I wouldn't feel free not being able to choose to go through the effort of lucid dreaming for the amazing experiences I have with it.

I could just as well say that you are enslaved by your aversion to effort.

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

Moderation. If you feel you're working on something too much, don't work so hard.

I can't really argue with you, because I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You're saying that working on the ability to lucid dream, which is basically the ability to experience anything you want, is related to insecurity. Lucid dreaming isn't about control. It's about the experiences you have with that control that you can't in real life. So first you say that comes from insecurity, then because of that it's enslavement. What the fuck. It's like saying being a king is enslavement because you have to work for that power. Sure, having responsibilities can't be called true freedom, but it's not enslavement by any means.

Either way, nobody can be free with your definition, which is "no effort." Freedom is the ability to choose whether to make an effort or not, and have the experiences you want. I wouldn't feel free not being able to choose to go through the effort of lucid dreaming for the amazing experiences I have with it.

I could just as well say that you are enslaved by your aversion to effort.

I am going to add to that, and just say one line.. and I want everyone that reads this line to let it sink in..

Do you think we would be as free as we are, here in America, if the people before our time, didn't work for it????

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

but I have to go to the gym.

I don't know if you're serious about that or not.

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

If one needs to maintain and work for something that means that there are goals. Freedom to me comes from the realization that nothing needs to worked on since you already are free. Effort in order to maintain a certain state comes at a sense to keep control over your surroundings. This stems from insecurity. It seems like enslavement to me.

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

I don't know if you're serious about that or not.

I can still go to the gym just as a "direct experience." It has no sway over me meaning that if I missed the gym I wouldn't get overly upset about it--I can just enjoy the gym. The reasons to why I go to work out are absent. It isn't because I want to become somebody else, etc. I sincerely like working out just for the sake of working out. Every action (or goal if you want to view it that way) becomes an action onto itself rather than for some paramount goal that can eventually be lost. If that makes sense.

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

Sorry to break it to you - but you're a hypocrite. You can't not have goals nor work at things. It's a goal of yours to be "free" and "without goals." You worked at it by ceasing your lucid dreaming efforts and probably other goals. You're specifically trying to have freedom to reach your goal of freedom.

Not only that, with your third point you say that lucidity is good as long as you don't make any effort toward it, and living in the now is awesome. So admit it, you're just lazy. It's all right, I'm lazy too. But I'm not about to call hardworking people slaves.

Maybe I am lazy, maybe not; but, for many people giving things up is very hard because without them one feels like nothing. It gives meaning to our lives but like everything, the are impermanent. Nothing can last forever. Would you/Can you give up lucid dreaming? Would doing so make you unhappy and feel less than you once were? If it was lost and you are unable to lucid dream would you feel inferior to someone else who can/still is able too?

I started typing a post but I gave up. You're obviously not going to start thinking logically (as in, even if you keep your opinion, not being a hypocrite about it) anytime soon anyway.

What Happiness is a Warm Gun said.

Now, even if I am enslaved, I'm really happy about it. I'm sorry you're unable to make an effort for enjoyment, but if you ever come around, I'd be glad to help you LD

But for now, I'm not going to listen to you insult me and this entire community by calling us slaves to lucid dreaming, so goodbye.

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

Also, if I'm a retard why couldn't you figure out what I said?

tee hee. If I may answer that? It may be because you are a retard? Just a thought. I'm not calling you a retard, but someone thought so. So I'm just explaining, you know.