Do your control your dreams? Or do your dreams still control you?

[ZenMan12]

"Free from attachment, I seek nothing. No state needs to be maintained as all things are impermanent. Everything is allowed to come and go. I'm no master, for my art requires nothing to master. I simply am." Is it a dream within a dream? Who are the dreamers? And who truly are Awake? So many work for control of their dreams believing that they momentary freed themselves only to find themselves controlled many things--including the desire to control. Ego, desire, lust, which happened in previous dreams, now take the form of conscious effort. Which isn't different then say, how people live the lives "awake" in the daytime. Mind in always in the past or future, never here--now. Poor enslaved "lucid dreamers." Having that burden truly sucks. Most will be afraid to leave what they had behind. Only a few will do this. Which allows them to go beyond anything they can imagine. To give it a category would be to confine it. To give it name would be to mislabel it. There is a way to be awake through every moment in your life including dreams. But even this statement will make the foolhardy turn it into a goal and a form of control. Through direct experience it is realized. I hope, when I get the time I can write my own personal journey in the Personal section of the forum. But I put this here to give so called "Lucid Dreamers" something to think about. Tell me how what think.

[Licity]

The dream doesn't restrict you. You restrict yourself. Ego, desire, lust, all constantly affect you. This is no different in a dream, except for the fact that in a dream your actions have no effect in the long run so you can ignore societal rules. I wouldn't say dreams have restrictions as much as the dream simply bring attention to restrictions that are always there.

[Shift]

I think the philosophy forum exists for a reason.

[Iain]

"Free from attachment, I seek nothing. No state needs to be maintained as all things are impermanent. Everything is allowed to come and go. I'm no master, for my art requires nothing to master. I simply am." I've been on the internet for a long time, joining a lot of forums and communities in my time. One thing that's always irked me is when people quote someone and don't mention who they're quoting. All too often the poster is quoting themselves, even going so far as to make up something on the spot, think it sounds cool, and put it in quotes. I'm not saying that you did this, but a Google search turns up nothing close to your quote. Please attribute your quotes so we can understand them in context. Is it a dream within a dream? Who are the dreamers? And who truly are Awake? First, no, it isn't a dream within a dream. Dreaming is a normal part of the working of the brain. In other words, dreaming is a physical process. We do not wake from dreaming into the real world, we always exist in it. If there is an afterlife or hyperlife or what have you, that doesn't make reality a dream. In other words, you can't take the language of dreams, apply it to the real world, and then conclude that there's a new life you can 'wake up' to. If that was valid, then I could simply state, "Fool! The new life you have woken up to is nothing but a meta-life, you need to wake up to super-life-3!" Second, the people who are asleep and dreaming are the dreamers. Why even ask the question, except to reinforce your idea that reality is a dream and all the awake people are actually dreaming. If you want to continue with this metaphor, then at least point out a way in which we can gain insight from the mental exercise, instead of going off on "the world is a pickle, and we are all the jar!" and pushing the job of making sense off onto your readers. Third, the people who are not sleeping are the ones who are truly awake. If you're going to have insight, please state what it is. Who do YOU believe are truly awake, and why? Note that your follow up does not answer this question, though you seem to feel it does: Poor enslaved "lucid dreamers." Having that burden truly sucks. Most will be afraid to leave what they had behind. Only a few will do this. Which allows them to go beyond anything they can imagine. To give it a category would be to confine it. To give it name would be to mislabel it. There is a way to be awake through every moment in your life including dreams. But even this statement will make the foolhardy turn it into a goal and a form of control. Through direct experience it is realized. A zen master is you! Dreaming is simply a mental process, and the things we imagine happening in our dreams are determined by what we believe can happen in them. By becoming lucid, and practicing mental discipline, we realize that we are dreaming and that the dream objects are not burdened with the laws of physics. How is it that realizing the nature of you mind is a "burden", and how it is that having your imagination burned by imaginary physics is some sort of freedom? Oh yeah, thinking is somehow control, and control is always bad: So many work for control of their dreams believing that they momentary freed themselves only to find themselves controlled [by] many things--including the desire to control. Ego, desire, lust, which happened in previous dreams, now take the form of conscious effort. Which isn't different then say, how people live the lives "awake" in the daytime. Mind in always in the past or future, never here--now. You equate lucid dreaming with control, which isn't completely true. Or, perhaps you equate this website's view of lucid dreaming with control, which its own introduction states is untrue. Further, you equate any form of conscious effort with control, and your post just oozes with the notion that control is BAD (while strangely pointing out how dreamers are controlled by desires... so you want us to not be controlled, but also not take control?). By definition, I control my body. Can you provide a viable alternative? Note how I use the word "viable" there: I mean it. Can you propose a way to not control your body which still allows you to live? Your mind is an intrinsic part of you, and it doesn't make sense to allow direction of one's waking thoughts and then turn around and say that it is "foolish" to direct those same thoughts while you sleep. You bring up "ego, desire, lust" as moral wrongs; this strategy works on a certain level, because there's a lot of people who will object to the notion of 'lucid dream sex'. Let's say I agree with that for a moment. Does that mean that all control of thoughts is therefor bad? It does not follow. But I put this here to give so called "Lucid Dreamers" something to think about. Then actually give us something to think about. All you've said so far can be summarized thus: 1. Zen masters believe in doing absolutely nothing. 2. There might be another reality, of which this is just a dream. 3. And you've actually found it! 4. Lucid dreamers are foolish because they actively think while they are sleeping. Tell me how what think. I think that you have an interest in lucid dreaming, maybe some experience in the matter, and you think you're pretty good at it, so you found this site to talk with others about it. Okay, same here! But you want everyone here to know that you are a dream master, and you've decided that the way to do that is to show them how wrong they are using Zen-like quotes and language which may or may not actually reflect Zen teachings. Grow up, or GTFO my internet.

[Shift]

. Welcome to Dreamviews. Will you marry me?

[Hukif]

lol shift. But yes, being subjetive makes nothing to think about for me <.<

[ZenMan12]

The dream doesn't restrict you. You restrict yourself. Ego, desire, lust, all constantly affect you. This is no different in a dream, except for the fact that in a dream your actions have no effect in the long run so you can ignore societal rules. I wouldn't say dreams have restrictions as much as the dream simply bring attention to restrictions that are always there. Yes they do affect you. But I come to realization that trying to induce a lucid dream creates more problems and expectations. What if you don't get the lucid dream through the normal means that you had. What if it fails? Without control people feel uneasy. Lucid dream is another form of control in the sense that if it goes but struggle and become miserable to bring it back. Lucid dreams require effort. There is a way to be conscious in your dreams without effort. It isn't the same as lucid dreams. It is sort of complicated but by "just being" you allow the dream to naturally occur. This doesn't mean inaction necessarily but rather everything just is and is done through direct experience. At first lucid dreams do free as it is something new. But the struggle to maintain that freedom becomes a real burden. Lucid dreams over complicates dreaming later because their is an end or goal. It isn't about the enjoyment of the lucid dream but rather wanting for more--at least that have been my experiences of it. If you have to work for freedom doesn't that in and of it sense become an enslavement?

[Robot_Butler]

Ego, desire, lust, which happened in previous dreams, now take the form of conscious effort. That's pretty much the point. These things are only negative if you let them rule you (even then, it is a societal moral judgment). Once you learn to live with them, respect them, and embrace them, you can stop being controlled by them. These instincts will always be a part of you. You just need to learn to be at peace with them. If you have to work for freedom doesn't that in and of it sense become an enslavement? I don't believe so. If that were true, we would abandon any path that required hard work. That is not freedom, it is laziness. I think the journey is an important part of the learning process.

[ZenMan12]

That's pretty much the point. These things are only negative if you let them rule you (even then, it is a societal moral judgment). Once you learn to live with them, respect them, and embrace them, you can stop being controlled by them. These instincts will always be a part of you. You just need to learn to be at peace with them. I don't believe so. If that were true, we would abandon any path that required hard work. That is not freedom, it is laziness. I think the journey is an important part of the learning process. I do believe embracing is a huge part of it but would you embrace the dreams that you couldn't control as well? Would not doing that lead to anxiety and fear? When I talk about ego (and lust/desire which I didn't mean necessarily sexual but rather the longing for something you can't/don't have), I'm talking about interpretations of your self and what society has upon you. People do lucid dreams for all sorts of reasons. Whether it is to fight off nightmares, or to see how far can the mind go. The aversion to fear (say taking conscious control of your nightmares so you won't suffer) is another form of fear. You fear have those nightmares so you create action to prevent it. But this doesn't solve the problem for when the it doesn't work, you have the nightmares. Or when you actually do advert from it, it needs to always be there or else "if I don't have a lucid dream" than this will happen to me. Also doesn't embracing mean that no more action or effort is required to attain "freedom," nibbanna, or what have you?

[Robot_Butler]

You're right. We can embrace dreams without having to control them. I do, however, think control can help us learn to deal with some of the more difficult aspects of ourselves. In a lucid dream, we can master things that we are unable to control in real life. It is an empowering feeling to face your greatest fears in a nightmare and watch them disappear. It is a different experience from waking up and later telling yourself, "It was only a nightmare." I think you are confusing control with lucidity. Lucid dreaming is not all about controlling your dreams. It is about learning to be aware of your dreams while they are happening. I think that is freedom. You can learn to stop being controlled by your random subconscious thoughts. You can free yourself from those cyclic thought patterns that hog your attention during both the day and night.

[ZenMan12]

You're right. We can embrace dreams without having to control them. I do, however, think control can help us learn to deal with some of the more difficult aspects of ourselves. In a lucid dream, we can master things that we are unable to control in real life. It is an empowering feeling to face your greatest fears in a nightmare and watch them disappear. It is a different experience from waking up and later telling yourself, "It was only a nightmare." I think you are confusing control with lucidity. Lucid dreaming is not all about controlling your dreams. It is about learning to be aware of your dreams while they are happening. I think that is freedom. You can learn to stop being controlled by your random subconscious thoughts. You can free yourself from those cyclic thought patterns that hog your attention during both the day and night. It is great having this conversation I'm sure your getting a kick out of it. But the fear wouldn't exist if it wasn't a fear through the our cognitive process? This starts to step into sociopathology (which I believe are different stages and the dsm isn't all correct). Embracing it without control, if done enough time will shift a person's view on it. They will become desensitized. But if one control is a mean to advert the problem, while I agree creates a great satisfaction of beating the nightmare, or what have you, something else will enviably come (whether in the form of dreams or other part in life).

[DarkLucideity]

Yes they do affect you. But I come to realization that trying to induce a lucid dream creates more problems and expectations. What if you don't get the lucid dream through the normal means that you had. What if it fails? Without control people feel uneasy. Lucid dream is another form of control in the sense that if it goes but struggle and become miserable to bring it back. Lucid dreams require effort. There is a way to be conscious in your dreams without effort. It isn't the same as lucid dreams. It is sort of complicated but by "just being" you allow the dream to naturally occur. This doesn't mean inaction necessarily but rather everything just is and is done through direct experience. At first lucid dreams do free as it is something new. But the struggle to maintain that freedom becomes a real burden. Lucid dreams over complicates dreaming later because their is an end or goal. It isn't about the enjoyment of the lucid dream but rather wanting for more--at least that have been my experiences of it. If you have to work for freedom doesn't that in and of it sense become an enslavement? So you're basically saying that having to work for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. Wow, I've never seen an excuse for being too lazy to lucid dream covered in so much "zen" bullshit. And you call me enslaved because I'm willing to work for something. Sorry buddy, but some things in life take effort. Deal with it.

[poopman]

So you're basically saying that working for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. Wow, I've never seen an excuse for being too lazy to lucid dream covered in so much "zen" bullshit. And you call me enslaved because I'm willing to work for something. Sorry buddy, but some things in life take effort. Deal with it. yeah this is our generation(not sure how old you guys are). lllllllaaaaazzzzzyyyyy

[spiritofthewolf]

Damn, I really don't know where to begin this post.. Like, I read every single of the OP's post, and still, I am as confused as ever.. Can some one here, with some common sense please explain to me what this zenTARD person is saying-- I would like to say a few things, but I want to get the story straight first... Thanks Spiritofthewolf

[DarkLucideity]

Damn, I really don't know where to begin this post.. Like, I read every single of the OP's post, and still, I am as confused as ever.. Can some one here, with some common sense please explain to me what this zenTARD person is saying-- I would like to say a few things, but I want to get the story straight first... Thanks Spiritofthewolf So you're basically saying that having to work for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. That's what I got out of it.

[spiritofthewolf]

I'm still going to wait for a description of what he was truly trying to get at.. Because I feel like I am gonna have a good thing to say afterwards

[ZenMan12]

I'm still going to wait for a description of what he was truly trying to get at.. Because I feel like I am gonna have a good thing to say afterwards What ass? What is the point of me trying to explain what I mean if you already have something your going to say afterward? And why would you even say that? Didn't you just give your plan away to me? Now I know your going to say a "good" thing afterward. Which I can only guess is some snarky remark to show that you "got me." Also, if I'm a retard why couldn't you figure out what I said? So you're basically saying that having to work for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. Wow, I've never seen an excuse for being too lazy to lucid dream covered in so much "zen" bullshit. And you call me enslaved because I'm willing to work for something. Sorry buddy, but some things in life take effort. Deal with it. I have lucid dream before. I worked very hard to achieve Lucid dreaming a long while back but it seemed to make life complicated always having to work at it and putting it on a high pedestal. Being lucid in a dream without effort doesn't happen much but why should regular dreams be avoided? If one needs to maintain and work for something that means that there are goals. Freedom to me comes from the realization that nothing needs to worked on since you already are free. Effort in order to maintain a certain state comes at a sense to keep control over your surroundings. This stems from insecurity. It seems like enslavement to me. Just like you can breath with or without effort. When you breathe with effort, while you may get better at breathing, you can become more miserable and not enjoy the finer things in life.

[spiritofthewolf]

Ummmmm, excuse me? I wasn't going to say anything negative about you.. Just because I said " A Good thing" doesn't mean it was going to be anything negative about you, or anything you said.. You assuming that, just makes an ass out of yourself... not me.. so please reframe from calling me an ass... I am trying to figure out what exactly you are talking about to have a conversation, not to put you down or your views down, I don't have time for that, ask anybody that knows me on this site and they will tell you that.... So, can we start again? can you PLEASE go more in depth on what you are trying to get to? thank you spiritofthewolf

[spiritofthewolf]

What ass? What is the point of me trying to explain what I mean if you already have something your going to say afterward? And why would you even say that? Didn't you just give your plan away to me? Now I know your going to say a "good" thing afterward. Which I can only guess is some snarky remark to show that you "got me." Also, if I'm a retard why couldn't you figure out what I said? I have lucid dream before. I worked very hard to achieve Lucid dreaming a long while back but it seemed to make life complicated always having to work at it and putting it on a high pedestal. Being lucid in a dream without effort doesn't happen much but why should regular dreams be avoided? If one needs to maintain and work for something that means that there are goals. Freedom to me comes from the realization that nothing needs to worked on since you already are free. Effort in order to maintain a certain state comes at a sense to keep control over your surroundings. This stems from insecurity. It seems like enslavement to me. Just like you can breath with or without effort. When you breathe with effort, while you may get better at breathing, you can become more miserable and not enjoy the finer things in life. Okay so from what I have gathered so far, you have had Lucid Dreams before, but you don't like to overlook the non-lucid dreams either. Which I can understand that, I love dreams in general because of the fact that you never know where your going to end up--and you never know what you could gain from that... Now if you were Lucid you can miss out on that opportunity (if a non LD had something meaningful). So I can see where you are coming from, yes Lucid Dreaming does take effort, it takes the patience to learn, and the routine to keep at it, but honestly, it's not like working a 15 hour job or anything like that. Now are you the type of person that enjoys non lucid dreams, better then lucid dreams? I am still wondering what you are trying to explain through all this, I believe I have gathered some stuff so far--or not--but just curious

[DarkLucideity]

Moderation. If you feel you're working on something too much, don't work so hard. I can't really argue with you, because I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You're saying that working on the ability to lucid dream, which is basically the ability to experience anything you want, is related to insecurity. Lucid dreaming isn't about control. It's about the experiences you have with that control that you can't in real life. So first you say that comes from insecurity, then because of that it's enslavement. What the fuck. It's like saying being a king is enslavement because you have to work for that power. Sure, having responsibilities can't be called true freedom, but it's not enslavement by any means. Either way, nobody can be free with your definition, which is "no effort." Freedom is the ability to choose whether to make an effort or not, and have the experiences you want. I wouldn't feel free not being able to choose to go through the effort of lucid dreaming for the amazing experiences I have with it. I could just as well say that you are enslaved by your aversion to effort.

[spiritofthewolf]

Moderation. If you feel you're working on something too much, don't work so hard. I can't really argue with you, because I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You're saying that working on the ability to lucid dream, which is basically the ability to experience anything you want, is related to insecurity. Lucid dreaming isn't about control. It's about the experiences you have with that control that you can't in real life. So first you say that comes from insecurity, then because of that it's enslavement. What the fuck. It's like saying being a king is enslavement because you have to work for that power. Sure, having responsibilities can't be called true freedom, but it's not enslavement by any means. Either way, nobody can be free with your definition, which is "no effort." Freedom is the ability to choose whether to make an effort or not, and have the experiences you want. I wouldn't feel free not being able to choose to go through the effort of lucid dreaming for the amazing experiences I have with it. I could just as well say that you are enslaved by your aversion to effort. I am going to add to that, and just say one line.. and I want everyone that reads this line to let it sink in.. Do you think we would be as free as we are, here in America, if the people before our time, didn't work for it????

[ZenMan12]

Okay so from what I have gathered so far, you have had Lucid Dreams before, but you don't like to overlook the non-lucid dreams either. Which I can understand that, I love dreams in general because of the fact that you never know where your going to end up--and you never know what you could gain from that... Now if you were Lucid you can miss out on that opportunity (if a non LD had something meaningful). So I can see where you are coming from, yes Lucid Dreaming does take effort, it takes the patience to learn, and the routine to keep at it, but honestly, it's not like working a 15 hour job or anything like that. Now are you the type of person that enjoys non lucid dreams, better then lucid dreams? I am still wondering what you are trying to explain through all this, I believe I have gathered some stuff so far--or not--but just curious My bad, you did say "zenTard," so I thought you were trying to degrade me. This will probably be the last post until tomorrow since I need to go to sleep. There are several points I'm tackling. Robot Butler made some good points. I hope he logs in tomorrow. 1) Even when you "control" your dreams, you are still driven to make yourself lucid in hopes of attaining some benefit from your lucid dreams. Indirectly, you dreams, or the context thereof, control you. If dreams weren't of any importance, would it be safe to say there one wouldn't even bother to achieve lucidity? 2) I started lucid dreaming do to the fact that I felt "free" and I could fly, etc. But with the realization of the point above dreams still held importance to me and so I figured I wasn't truly free in the sense that dreams still were able to sway me and my "happiness." Also to maintain that state causes one--if they fail, unhappiness. 3) I guess there is another type of "dream style." You don't use tricks to become aware but rather "it is." Every action becomes an action unto it self--meaning there is no implied reason to do such an action during a dream or in real life. It is through direct experience. When you go the other route you need to constantly use tricks/skills/work to be conscious during a dream because it isn't your natural state to do so. For example. So many people aren't aware of what is going around them. Many people are in their heads thinking about the past and future,etc. To become conscious one just needs to be aware of the Now, the moment. This doesn't require effort, in fact, it requires no effort. You simply allow yourself to be aware of your surroundings. The more effort you put into being in the Now--the harder it becomes. You can't enjoy the Now since your trying too hard to be there. I hope this analogy makes more sense.

[spiritofthewolf]

Okay, I think I see where you are getting at. I understood point number 2 really well. What I gathered, and correct me if i am wrong, is that, no matter what you do to gain Lucidity or "Be free"--your dreams are always going to effect you. Even if it's in a negative way, so therefore, you are never truly "Free" because there is just no humanly possible way to make your dreams not effect you?? If that is way off, then i am sorry hahahaha

[DarkLucideity]

Too bad you didn't tackle any of my points. I still fail to see how you can enslave yourself or be enslaved by yourself - much less do that by having goals. Sorry to break it to you - but you're a hypocrite. You can't not have goals nor work at things. It's a goal of yours to be "free" and "without goals." You worked at it by ceasing your lucid dreaming efforts and probably other goals. You're specifically trying to have freedom to reach your goal of freedom. Also, by your logic, either way your dreams control you. Either you strive for lucidity and that "controls" you, or you go through your dreams unconscious and controlled. Not only that, with your third point you say that lucidity is good as long as you don't make any effort toward it, and living in the now is awesome. So admit it, you're just lazy. It's all right, I'm lazy too. But I'm not about to call hardworking people slaves.

[Happiness is a Warm Gun]

I don't really know where to begin so I guess I'll just start writing and see what comes out: There is a real arrogant tone to your posts, ZenMan12. How do you think someone who's truly enlightened would feel about your desire to share this wisdom with us via unsolicited criticism? How can you profess to 'live in the moment' while still devoting time and energy to being so needlessly judgemental of others? Is your post really meant to be helpful, or is it just born of a desire to express and validate yourself; verbal masturbation clothed in flowery language. Lucid dreaming is a form of self awareness and expression, like music, art, and literature. It's not about control any more than singing is about controlling what we hear, or drawing is about controlling what we see. LDing takes effort, just as it takes effort to live in the moment, but this isn't slavery. We alone decide whether or not to put in the work, and we alone reap the rewards. Finally, you've got an odd belief that we can gain perpetual happiness by avoiding external influences. The Zen books you're regurgitating should have impressed upon you that this is false; there is no happiness without sadness, no freedom without slavery. Zen is about embracing the extremes, not eliminating them.