Thread: Do your control your dreams? Or do your dreams still control you?

"Free from attachment, I seek nothing. No state needs to be maintained as all things are impermanent. Everything is allowed to come and go. I'm no master, for my art requires nothing to master. I simply am."

Is it a dream within a dream? Who are the dreamers? And who truly are Awake?

So many work for control of their dreams believing that they momentary freed themselves only to find themselves controlled many things--including the desire to control. Ego, desire, lust, which happened in previous dreams, now take the form of conscious effort. Which isn't different then say, how people live the lives "awake" in the daytime. Mind in always in the past or future, never here--now.

Poor enslaved "lucid dreamers." Having that burden truly sucks. Most will be afraid to leave what they had behind. Only a few will do this. Which allows them to go beyond anything they can imagine.

To give it a category would be to confine it. To give it name would be to mislabel it. There is a way to be awake through every moment in your life including dreams. But even this statement will make the foolhardy turn it into a goal and a form of control. Through direct experience it is realized.

I hope, when I get the time I can write my own personal journey in the Personal section of the forum. But I put this here to give so called "Lucid Dreamers" something to think about. Tell me how what think.

The dream doesn't restrict you.

You restrict yourself.

Ego, desire, lust, all constantly affect you. This is no different in a dream, except for the fact that in a dream your actions have no effect in the long run so you can ignore societal rules.

I wouldn't say dreams have restrictions as much as the dream simply bring attention to restrictions that are always there.

I think the philosophy forum exists for a reason.

Originally Posted by Licity

The dream doesn't restrict you.

You restrict yourself.

Ego, desire, lust, all constantly affect you. This is no different in a dream, except for the fact that in a dream your actions have no effect in the long run so you can ignore societal rules.

I wouldn't say dreams have restrictions as much as the dream simply bring attention to restrictions that are always there.

Yes they do affect you. But I come to realization that trying to induce a lucid dream creates more problems and expectations. What if you don't get the lucid dream through the normal means that you had. What if it fails? Without control people feel uneasy. Lucid dream is another form of control in the sense that if it goes but struggle and become miserable to bring it back. Lucid dreams require effort.

There is a way to be conscious in your dreams without effort. It isn't the same as lucid dreams. It is sort of complicated but by "just being" you allow the dream to naturally occur. This doesn't mean inaction necessarily but rather everything just is and is done through direct experience. At first lucid dreams do free as it is something new. But the struggle to maintain that freedom becomes a real burden. Lucid dreams over complicates dreaming later because their is an end or goal. It isn't about the enjoyment of the lucid dream but rather wanting for more--at least that have been my experiences of it.

If you have to work for freedom doesn't that in and of it sense become an enslavement?

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

Yes they do affect you. But I come to realization that trying to induce a lucid dream creates more problems and expectations. What if you don't get the lucid dream through the normal means that you had. What if it fails? Without control people feel uneasy. Lucid dream is another form of control in the sense that if it goes but struggle and become miserable to bring it back. Lucid dreams require effort.

There is a way to be conscious in your dreams without effort. It isn't the same as lucid dreams. It is sort of complicated but by "just being" you allow the dream to naturally occur. This doesn't mean inaction necessarily but rather everything just is and is done through direct experience. At first lucid dreams do free as it is something new. But the struggle to maintain that freedom becomes a real burden. Lucid dreams over complicates dreaming later because their is an end or goal. It isn't about the enjoyment of the lucid dream but rather wanting for more--at least that have been my experiences of it.

If you have to work for freedom doesn't that in and of it sense become an enslavement?

So you're basically saying that having to work for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. Wow, I've never seen an excuse for being too lazy to lucid dream covered in so much "zen" bullshit.

And you call me enslaved because I'm willing to work for something. Sorry buddy, but some things in life take effort. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

So you're basically saying that working for the freedom of lucid dreaming means that it's not really freedom, so you become free by just having normal dreams. Wow, I've never seen an excuse for being too lazy to lucid dream covered in so much "zen" bullshit.

And you call me enslaved because I'm willing to work for something. Sorry buddy, but some things in life take effort. Deal with it.

yeah this is our generation(not sure how old you guys are). lllllllaaaaazzzzzyyyyy

Damn,

I really don't know where to begin this post.. Like, I read every single of the OP's post, and still, I am as confused as ever.. Can some one here, with some common sense please explain to me what this zenTARD person is saying-- I would like to say a few things, but I want to get the story straight first...

Thanks

Spiritofthewolf

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

"Free from attachment, I seek nothing. No state needs to be maintained as all things are impermanent. Everything is allowed to come and go. I'm no master, for my art requires nothing to master. I simply am."

I've been on the internet for a long time, joining a lot of forums and communities in my time. One thing that's always irked me is when people quote someone and don't mention who they're quoting. All too often the poster is quoting themselves, even going so far as to make up something on the spot, think it sounds cool, and put it in quotes. I'm not saying that you did this, but a Google search turns up nothing close to your quote. Please attribute your quotes so we can understand them in context.

Is it a dream within a dream? Who are the dreamers? And who truly are Awake?

First, no, it isn't a dream within a dream. Dreaming is a normal part of the working of the brain. In other words, dreaming is a physical process. We do not wake from dreaming into the real world, we always exist in it. If there is an afterlife or hyperlife or what have you, that doesn't make reality a dream. In other words, you can't take the language of dreams, apply it to the real world, and then conclude that there's a new life you can 'wake up' to. If that was valid, then I could simply state, "Fool! The new life you have woken up to is nothing but a meta-life, you need to wake up to super-life-3!"

Second, the people who are asleep and dreaming are the dreamers. Why even ask the question, except to reinforce your idea that reality is a dream and all the awake people are actually dreaming. If you want to continue with this metaphor, then at least point out a way in which we can gain insight from the mental exercise, instead of going off on "the world is a pickle, and we are all the jar!" and pushing the job of making sense off onto your readers.

Third, the people who are not sleeping are the ones who are truly awake. If you're going to have insight, please state what it is. Who do YOU believe are truly awake, and why? Note that your follow up does not answer this question, though you seem to feel it does:

Poor enslaved "lucid dreamers." Having that burden truly sucks. Most will be afraid to leave what they had behind. Only a few will do this. Which allows them to go beyond anything they can imagine.

To give it a category would be to confine it. To give it name would be to mislabel it. There is a way to be awake through every moment in your life including dreams. But even this statement will make the foolhardy turn it into a goal and a form of control. Through direct experience it is realized.

A zen master is you!

Dreaming is simply a mental process, and the things we imagine happening in our dreams are determined by what we believe can happen in them. By becoming lucid, and practicing mental discipline, we realize that we are dreaming and that the dream objects are not burdened with the laws of physics. How is it that realizing the nature of you mind is a "burden", and how it is that having your imagination burned by imaginary physics is some sort of freedom?

Oh yeah, thinking is somehow control, and control is always bad:

So many work for control of their dreams believing that they momentary freed themselves only to find themselves controlled [by] many things--including the desire to control. Ego, desire, lust, which happened in previous dreams, now take the form of conscious effort. Which isn't different then say, how people live the lives "awake" in the daytime. Mind in always in the past or future, never here--now.

You equate lucid dreaming with control, which isn't completely true. Or, perhaps you equate this website's view of lucid dreaming with control, which its own introduction states is untrue. Further, you equate any form of conscious effort with control, and your post just oozes with the notion that control is BAD (while strangely pointing out how dreamers are controlled by desires... so you want us to not be controlled, but also not take control?). By definition, I control my body. Can you provide a viable alternative? Note how I use the word "viable" there: I mean it. Can you propose a way to not control your body which still allows you to live?

Your mind is an intrinsic part of you, and it doesn't make sense to allow direction of one's waking thoughts and then turn around and say that it is "foolish" to direct those same thoughts while you sleep. You bring up "ego, desire, lust" as moral wrongs; this strategy works on a certain level, because there's a lot of people who will object to the notion of 'lucid dream sex'. Let's say I agree with that for a moment. Does that mean that all control of thoughts is therefor bad? It does not follow.

But I put this here to give so called "Lucid Dreamers" something to think about.

Then actually give us something to think about. All you've said so far can be summarized thus:

1. Zen masters believe in doing absolutely nothing.
2. There might be another reality, of which this is just a dream.
3. And you've actually found it!
4. Lucid dreamers are foolish because they actively think while they are sleeping.

Tell me how what think.

I think that you have an interest in lucid dreaming, maybe some experience in the matter, and you think you're pretty good at it, so you found this site to talk with others about it. Okay, same here! But you want everyone here to know that you are a dream master, and you've decided that the way to do that is to show them how wrong they are using Zen-like quotes and language which may or may not actually reflect Zen teachings. Grow up, or GTFO my internet.

Originally Posted by Iain

.

Welcome to Dreamviews. Will you marry me?

lol shift.
But yes, being subjetive makes nothing to think about for me <.<

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

Ego, desire, lust, which happened in previous dreams, now take the form of conscious effort.

That's pretty much the point. These things are only negative if you let them rule you (even then, it is a societal moral judgment). Once you learn to live with them, respect them, and embrace them, you can stop being controlled by them. These instincts will always be a part of you. You just need to learn to be at peace with them.

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

If you have to work for freedom doesn't that in and of it sense become an enslavement?

I don't believe so. If that were true, we would abandon any path that required hard work. That is not freedom, it is laziness.

I think the journey is an important part of the learning process.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That's pretty much the point. These things are only negative if you let them rule you (even then, it is a societal moral judgment). Once you learn to live with them, respect them, and embrace them, you can stop being controlled by them. These instincts will always be a part of you. You just need to learn to be at peace with them.



I don't believe so. If that were true, we would abandon any path that required hard work. That is not freedom, it is laziness.

I think the journey is an important part of the learning process.

I do believe embracing is a huge part of it but would you embrace the dreams that you couldn't control as well? Would not doing that lead to anxiety and fear?

When I talk about ego (and lust/desire which I didn't mean necessarily sexual but rather the longing for something you can't/don't have), I'm talking about interpretations of your self and what society has upon you.

People do lucid dreams for all sorts of reasons. Whether it is to fight off nightmares, or to see how far can the mind go.

The aversion to fear (say taking conscious control of your nightmares so you won't suffer) is another form of fear. You fear have those nightmares so you create action to prevent it. But this doesn't solve the problem for when the it doesn't work, you have the nightmares. Or when you actually do advert from it, it needs to always be there or else "if I don't have a lucid dream" than this will happen to me.

Also doesn't embracing mean that no more action or effort is required to attain "freedom," nibbanna, or what have you?

You're right. We can embrace dreams without having to control them. I do, however, think control can help us learn to deal with some of the more difficult aspects of ourselves. In a lucid dream, we can master things that we are unable to control in real life. It is an empowering feeling to face your greatest fears in a nightmare and watch them disappear. It is a different experience from waking up and later telling yourself, "It was only a nightmare."

I think you are confusing control with lucidity. Lucid dreaming is not all about controlling your dreams. It is about learning to be aware of your dreams while they are happening. I think that is freedom. You can learn to stop being controlled by your random subconscious thoughts. You can free yourself from those cyclic thought patterns that hog your attention during both the day and night.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

You're right. We can embrace dreams without having to control them. I do, however, think control can help us learn to deal with some of the more difficult aspects of ourselves. In a lucid dream, we can master things that we are unable to control in real life. It is an empowering feeling to face your greatest fears in a nightmare and watch them disappear. It is a different experience from waking up and later telling yourself, "It was only a nightmare."

I think you are confusing control with lucidity. Lucid dreaming is not all about controlling your dreams. It is about learning to be aware of your dreams while they are happening. I think that is freedom. You can learn to stop being controlled by your random subconscious thoughts. You can free yourself from those cyclic thought patterns that hog your attention during both the day and night.

It is great having this conversation I'm sure your getting a kick out of it.

But the fear wouldn't exist if it wasn't a fear through the our cognitive process? This starts to step into sociopathology (which I believe are different stages and the dsm isn't all correct). Embracing it without control, if done enough time will shift a person's view on it. They will become desensitized. But if one control is a mean to advert the problem, while I agree creates a great satisfaction of beating the nightmare, or what have you, something else will enviably come (whether in the form of dreams or other part in life).