Thread: What is the point?

As someone who attain lucidity naturally, I don't understand why people try to attain it and try to fly and things. Doesn't that make the entire journey of dreaming inane? For many dreams are sources of inspiration. I know dreams have certainly inspired me. Dreams have placed me in situations and scenarios and forced me to react to the events that unfold. Some of these things have been normal, some of have outright terrifying. As much I hate some of the dreams I have, I can't imagine spending my single escape from reality being so maleable.

Does doing fun stuff in waking state seem inane to you?

Living life in the present is highly inspiring for me.

Do you mean awake or as I am waking up? because I don't do anything fun while waking up.

Awake.

You make the assumptions that dreams serve a specific purpose, namely, inspiration.

The experience of flying itself is enough inspiration for me.

Originally Posted by XeL

Awake.

You make the assumptions that dreams serve a specific purpose, namely, inspiration.

The experience of flying itself is enough inspiration for me.

I don't make any assumptions. But dreams do serve a purpose. It's a way for our subconcious to delete information in a way. I find many times the contents of my dreams contain things that have been recently experienced by me. It's a pretty essential part of the human mind. Everyone dreams even if they do not remember them.

Did you ever think that perhaps because you're conciously trying to control your dreams you're just having dreams where you're in control of your dreams? True lucidity comes from being aware not so much that you're dreaming but that what is happening is actually happening, from having concious thought inside your dreams. I attain this with no effort or trying. I do not think my dreams would be as successful if I actually tried to have them be lucid.

Originally Posted by Mattrick

I don't make any assumptions. But dreams do serve a purpose. It's a way for our subconcious to delete information in a way. I find many times the contents of my dreams contain things that have been recently experienced by me. It's a pretty essential part of the human mind. Everyone dreams even if they do not remember them.

Did you ever think that perhaps because you're conciously trying to control your dreams you're just having dreams where you're in control of your dreams? True lucidity comes from being aware not so much that you're dreaming but that what is happening is actually happening, from having concious thought inside your dreams. I attain this with no effort or trying. I do not think my dreams would be as successful if I actually tried to have them be lucid.

I disagree with you. I find the content of my dreams to be fairly uninteresting. Everything that occurs can be tracked back to day residue and habitual reactions. I agree with that the Bön tradition followers say: "It's better to be the the dreamer, rather than being dreamed". The content of dreams is not important in comparison to the nature of the dream.

This doesn't mean I dislike my non-lucid dreams. Quite the opposite actually. I see my dreams as experiences. But as with lucid dreams, I also prefer to be in control of my waking state. This makes sense right?

Originally Posted by Mattrick

Doesn't that make the entire journey of dreaming inane?

Not at all.

Originally Posted by Mattrick

For many dreams are sources of inspiration. I know dreams have certainly inspired me. Dreams have placed me in situations and scenarios and forced me to react to the events that unfold. Some of these things have been normal, some of have outright terrifying.

I think many of us here can say the same.

Originally Posted by Mattrick

As much I hate some of the dreams I have, I can't imagine spending my single escape from reality being so maleable.

This is the age-old debate: Is one wasting their life, if they are not spending every waking moment being "productive", in some way? Who is more "properly" utilizing their time on this Earth - the kid with no social life who has always done very well, academically and financially; or the streetwise kid with a million great friends and amazing life stories of unual experiences that few people can relate to?

Which is the more respectable taste in literature - Fiction or Non-fiction?

It's all subjective. The reason you don't understand is because you refuse to see beyond your own, perceived "purpose of the dream state."

But the very fact that you can make yourself fly in a dream means it no longer has any meaning or deeper purpose. Your subconcious is no longer expunging itself of anything.

Not true. When in control, though you may not be experiencing those same emotions that you might if the situation was uncontrollable (terror, uncertainty, fight or flight circumstance), your mind is still experiencing other sensations (awe, empowerment, levity, freedom).

Another important point is that most of us can't say "all our dreams are lucid," and seeing as how you likely don't remember every single dream that you actually have, I'd say that there is a good chance that all of yours are not. Sometimes I remember 8 dreams a night, some times I don't remember a full dream for a week. I would find it incredible that your recall is so good that you actually remember every dream of every night enough to ascertain that every one of them was lucid. The question is - if most of us can only control a fraction of the dreams we have - what are we taking away from our overall dream experience? Much less than you're suggesting, I would think.

And because of this, the impact of my dreams is far more severe. Because I conciously experience these things instead of conciously controlling these things, they become memories for me.

You don't consciously experience these things. You consciously experience a simulation of these things. The point where you realize that what you're experiencing is not real, is the point where your dreaming experience becomes just as inherently "inane" as someone who decides to control what happens next. You can react as a human, but you cannot "fake" terror, with any sort of perfection, so whether you decide to find your way out of the labryinth, or fly to the top of it and walk along the walls, you're still "reacting" with the knowledge that this is just a dream. For some people, the thrill would come from solving the labyrinth, and meeting whatever dangers it had to offer, in stride. to others, the thrill would come from flying out of the corridor, landing on the top of the maze, and looking out over its perimeter - seeing the dark, mist-covered architecture stretching out into the horizon. That is a completely different sense of wonder than the former person would be able to experience, but every bit as "severe." This is compounded by the fact that, being in a newer setting (on top of the maze), you might run into more situations that your mind associates with being at that vantage point (such as a dragon swooping down on you from out of the sky, which you might not have ever come across, had you stayed in the maze itself).

Originally Posted by Mattrick

As someone who wants to enter the world of filmmaking, specifically horror, these experiences will limitlessly help me.

As an artist who loves fantasy and sci-fi, being able to "think outside the box" in given situations allows me more room to be creative in real-time scenarios. I'm not as limited by what I can do/see/experience as I would be, if I didn't even have the "option" of controlling aspects of any particular dream. As someone who wants to enter the world of film-making, I'm surprised that you, yourself, aren't more sympathetic to the thrill of "directing." Sure, it's fun to see what your mind can throw at you (which you can still allow it to do, if you're in control), but it's also fun to create your own imagery, and have it presented in front of you, in flawless detail.

All that being said, the biggest difference between your perspective on this and mind is that I understand and respect both attractions. I still have plenty of lucids, even nightmares, where I decide to just "go with it." Just because I "can" control something, doesn't mean I always choose to. But, there are also times when I want to experience that which could never be experienced in waking life. If I'm dropped into an arena and pitted against an army of monsters, am I going to choose to run around like prey for the remainder of my dream - until I inevitably get eaten - or am I going to orchestrate the biggest, most balls-out battle royale against 100+ snarling, slashing foes, employing superhuman athleticism and explosive magic?

Go on...take a guess.

Plus, if you are going to see an inspirative thought produced by the brain, just being lucid won't rule it out of the dream.
That and I like to have fun, study and explore dreams.

But the very fact that you can make yourself fly in a dream means it no longer has any meaning or deeper purpose. Your subconcious is no longer expunging itself of anything.

What I mean by inspiration is that something happens to inspire. There is no way the ability to shoot fireballs out of my hands and fly would make me being trapped in a mechanics garage with zombies all around as inspired. In my dreams I am still human, I am not superhuman in any way. And because of this, the impact of my dreams is far more severe. Because I conciously experience these things instead of conciously controlling these things, they become memories for me. I remember dreams from 20 years ago. If the dream is impactful I do not forget it and thus, the images and emotions stick with me. If every dream is simply running amuk on a playground, what makes them significant in anyway? As someone who wants to enter the world of filmmaking, specifically horror, these experiences will limitlessly help me. Considering about half my dreams either are or end up as nightmares, it's an endless stream of inspiration. And there is nothing more frightening then something you can't understand or control.

Originally Posted by Mattrick

If every dream is simply running amuk on a playground, what makes them significant in anyway? As someone who wants to enter the world of filmmaking, specifically horror, these experiences will limitlessly help me.

Christopher Nolan learned to Lucid Dream when he was a teenager, and he still practices it. Where do you think he got much of his inspiration for Inception from? And horror usually deals with the supernatural. You could use your lucidity to test ideas for movies that you have.

Ah, the subconcious is still showing itself, whom do you think is the one that creates the place around you? It isn't as strong yes, but its present. Also, why would you think LD can stop all nightmares? You can induce lucid nightmares, which are much worse than normal ones.

EDIT: Oh right, forgot! Who tells you that running around makes it just a playground? People have fun, yes, but not in every single LD they have. Running around and fighting is for me a form of studying what I learn in school.

Considering all my dreams are lucid I'm not sure how you can say an induced nightmare is worse. If you're expecting a nightmare, the shock of it's appearence is null and void. Many of my worst nightmares literally come out of nowhere, a normal dream suddenly turns the other cheek. If people had nightmares like mine, not sure why they would want to induce one.

Originally Posted by Mattrick

Considering all my dreams are lucid I'm not sure how you can say an induced nightmare is worse. If you're expecting a nightmare, the shock of it's appearence is null and void. Many of my worst nightmares literally come out of nowhere, a normal dream suddenly turns the other cheek. If people had nightmares like mine, not sure why they would want to induce one.

Inducing nightmares while lucid? Just give up control while remembering it's a dream. Go along with the plot, doing RCs along the way.

And it'll be way more scary in a LD because you'll be aware of whats happening. And once you actually get scared, you'll start spiraling because you'll expect bad things to happen without knowing you're just going to create those bad things, and this effect collapses in upon itself plunging you deeper and deeper into the imaginative hell that is your subconscious.

Have fun!

Well, a nightmare where you "know" it is reality and you are in control even if its frightening, and a nightmare where you know it is a dream, that it is your mind, and yet you are incapable of control it or avoid the situation, I would think the second option is worse. And I actually like to induce nightmares, as they are incredibly fun, once awake though <.<

Anyway, your idea of people dreaming of controling dreams because of trying to do so happens, but isn't always the case, for example, I was conciously trying to control dreams for around 8 years, but even so I never dreamed of me controling them until I found a reliable way to become lucid. It is just that you get LD in a natural way, and as such, your perception is different from us who had to work for them.

Well, what is a nightmare to you?

"frightful or oppressive dreams, from which one wakes after extreme anxiety, in a troubled state of mind;" Of course.

No I mean from personal experience, what constitutes a nightmare for you. For instance, what is a common type? I have several common nightmares that I call nightmares. Most nightmares to me are like watching a horror movies but I have those that go above and beyond. For instance, I have a recurring force in my dreams. Where I am doing whatever in a dream and suddenly I feel something. Not physical but I am aware of something, a force. As if it suddenly popped into existence from nothingness. It feel I don't know, evil or just plain wrong. I know it it's coming for me. It's as if it's size is so massive the air pressure increases as it get closers, that is how I know it's coming. In one dream I was hiking through the woods with friends and I started freaking out and running and telling them all to run. They looked at me like I was crazy. The most impactful dream I had with this was I was travelling through a corridor. A long, underground cavern filled with hundreds of doors. I was walking through them and they would lead me somewhere and the next door would take me back to the corridor. I went into one door and I found a smaller door, one I had to crawl through. At the other end was a kitchen, a small fairly dirty kitchen. I walked out of it and there were several doors. I opened one and suddenly I felt that same force, closer than I had ever felt. I ran away more terrified then I had ever been. As I was crawling through the tiny door, which was more like a tunnel I felt my leg get torn off. There was nothing there but I knew it was there. It's as if it was so terrible to view my eyes wouldn't let me see it. I watched the blood pour out of me when someone pulled me out of the hole and I was back in the hallway and I woke up.

I'm glad I haven't dreamed of this thing in awhile.

Ah, then lets see, I only have two reocurring nightmares.

One is from before I could induce lucidity, it was about me being floating on space, and then suddenly being overwhelmed by a prescence I could not see, the size of the thing would change rapidly and violently, which would make it worse as time was passing, there was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide and nothing to do to fight it because of the way the dream was set. Oh right, if I were to not wake up from fright, the thing would start cloning itself, which is the point where I was always waking up.

The other one is from a DC I created to get lucid nightmares, was a small kid, generally just being close her makes my body shiver in fear and want to start running away as fast as I can, though when I first created her, it was impossible to do so and would always be caught and "devoured" slowly by her.

Hi guys,
i think i understand Mattrick. I had the same thought about the purpose of changing a dream. I understand that is good to be aware of the fact of the dreaming but im a bit confused of the idea to change it. As he pointed out when you change the dream you change the meaning of it. Like that you can miss the lesson which was prepared for you or miss meeting important beings etc. I had some lessons in my dreams and met several times strange beings. Of course having fun is nice. But for me all the dreams are fun anyway. I go to this place and enjoy whatever there is for me there. During my dreams i wonder what could this and that mean for me. Some are easy to decypher. Others mean nothing just fun with some people or visiting strange places. So may be one should be able to recognize the important dreams and dont change them but to change others not so important(if one wishes).
I stopped having real nightmares long time ago. I mean the ones which are so common like constant falling(mine was being on top of a mountain and falling down on the branches without end), running from something etc. I dont recall when exactly happened but i suppose after i died a couple of times in my dreams or when i went through them till the end consciously. Now the only nightmares are the same as in real world Im getting angry with people and have quarrel with people i like or love. So in this way my nightmares and real world are same
Usually im just observing and thinking in my dream(now that i think of thats what im doing and in the 'real' world ). I try to resolve the meaning while still dreaming. Usually i do. But some are too deep or weird to understand immediately. I suppose i need more time and experience to get it. But those dreams stay with me like imprints waiting for their time. Some dreams resolve themselves in the 'real' world, then i just notice and thats all.

Originally Posted by Mattrick

I attain this with no effort or trying.

I hate you.

I look at it this way. There is the general, and there is the specific.
Waking life, reality, is general. Common to all. Dream life is specific to the individual.

If one had a perfect learning situation, then while awake they would learn in a general environment, and while asleep, an environment specific to their personal psychological profile.

Learning is the modification of behavior such that that behavior maintains and promotes the individuals life.

Hypothetical scenario that supports lucidity as a form of inspiration over non-lucid dreams:

I am a professional comic book writer. In several lucid dreams of mine I've played out roles as one of my prime characters, an archmage with an extensive life background full of trials and hardships that have put her through some of the most grueling psychological and emotional tests a human being can suffer. For a long time I'd realized that I couldn't fully put her true character down on paper. I didn't know what it felt like to launch fireballs the size of ocean liners and call storms delivered on the backs of ancient demons, so to speak. So I used my lucid dreaming experiences to find for myself the feeling that accompanies what my character would experience in some of her adventures. I lived the events in detail and felt every pulse and vibe of energy surge through me as if the events were real, and not some sterile creation as if observed from behind a television screen. Afterwards I was able to convey more of that understanding through my character as I saw her become a sort of extension of myself and more. There was more humanity to her that added a new realism that had been lacking in the comic earlier, and my readers found that more enjoyable overall.

Being aware or in control of a situation does not get rid of that situation's potential to be inspiring. I don't really understand how that works. Furthermore the inspiration as presented in my hypothetical scenario does not have to come about directly from one's control in the lucid dream. There are plenty of subconscious happenings that become observable in lucid dreams that the individual may have no control over. Lucid nightmares are the more extreme example of this.

Wait... a garage full of zombies and I have to act as I do in the waking? Pfft, the situation is already inane =)

My dreaming is similar to yours, while I do not recall every dream most of mine I am consious and as I do now react in varying ways to the situation that I am presented with. Often I wont realise its a dream for some time but my instinct is to try and fly when in danger. On occasion I get into the magic/force stuff which takes quite a bit of effort on my part and a bit of figuring out. Like you I cannot help but to be consious but who is to say that I cannot use the abilities I have in the dreaming and not learn anything? The very act of being consious drastically changes any dream mundane or fantastic. Its the difference between watching a movie and playing a video game.
But as it was said just because my reaction might be to fly does not mean I lose any inspiration, feeling the break from gravity is an amazing thing. Sure you could react with grabbing a garden tool or chainsaw in the garage and fight off some of the zombies but when it comes down to it, if im gona get eaten I am going to do what I can to not get eaten =D

Sometimes I get eaten....

Other times that spark just hits me and I bash my head on the ceiling and charge the door or window in flight and break out from the enclosed environment of the garage over the gaping mouthes of zombies into the open world and then explore it. Perhaps its inane to you but to me its freedom.

I would also say the visions I have seen in flight will never leave me, nor will I forget the feel of the breath of the wind beneath my wings.

Everyone is different. Maybe some people control their dreams because they have little control over their waking lives. Others will prefer to go with the flow.

We're all individual

I think the answer is yes and no. To me, I think even non-lucid dreams are fantastic. I've had non-lucids which were really mundane and I've had some that were just terrific, very vivid and with interesting stories. What one needs to remember is that you will always have non-lucid dreams. I haven't heard of anyone who can control ALL their dreams EACH day. A lot of the experienced members on here can become lucid easily, but, their number of non-lucid in total far exceed their lucid amount. Also, even if one is lucid, he can chose to follow the flow of the dream or take his own path learning in the process. Invader's example is perfect for illustrating this point. As to the message of the dream, well, most of my dreams revolve around RL, basically work, school, family, etc.... so I am basically replaying RL in my dreams which makes it hard to pick up a message. At least with some lucids, one can better themselves at a certain subject, practice a sport to get the hang of some move and furthermore, they can experience things that they would never be able to experience IRL and just get the feelings for it